Does man have a libertarian free will?

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Does man have a libertarian free will?

  • Yes, man has a libertarian free will

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • No, man does not have a libertarian free will

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 3.4%

  • Total voters
    29

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,080
2,228
113
#61
For that to be true there would not be evidence of a single scripture that pertains or speaks of man's free will.
Remember people, claiming God made you without the capacity to exercise choice, which is a product of free will, is disparaging God in who's image and likeness you are made. Because God has a will, God is compassionate, God is gracious, all qualities that you, made in His likeness, would then possess.

God gave us total free till the Fall happened. After that, we have extremely limited freedom to make decisions. You have proven nothing but that you know nothing, and you do not read the posts people write, which clearly explain Reformed theology. The fact that you won't call it by its proper name, shows what a stubborn and ignorant person you are. You are the one disparaging God, saying he cannot do whatever he wills.

"Our God is in heaven!
He does whatever he pleases!" Pdalm 115:3

Deuteronomy 30:19, 20 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

Context is national not personal. God was speaking to the nation of Israel, not individuals about free will. And the limitation that makes it NOT free will, is that it was about the nation choosing to sin, or not sin. Those have always been the parameters of our will, since the fall!

Matthew 22:35-37 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

No clue what this is about in your mind. Nothing to do with an unlimited free will. Jesus is talking about 2 commandments, this one, and love your neighbour as yourself, which he says next. Maybe instead of copying and pasting scripture and scripture, you could exegete how it proves your point?

John 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

Goodness! This is Jesus talking about himself, and how he does God's will! Did you google the word "will" and this is what came up?"

Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is talking to Christians. Jesus feels they have shut the door on him. It is not an invitation to unbelievers. In fact, it is best described as a warning, not to sin. Again, well within the limitations of our limited will.

Doctrines that insist man has no free will, no capacity to choose, are saying God controls everything at all times.
That is not true. God is sovereign, yes! However, God has said Himself that He does not at all times control every little thing happening here. As we read about God's restraint toward Babylon in Isaiah 42.

13The Lord goes out like a mighty man,
like a man of war he stirs up his zeal;
he cries out, he shouts aloud,
he shows himself mighty against his foes.


14 For a long time I have held my peace;
I have kept still and restrained myself;
now I will cry out like a woman in labor;
I will gasp and pant.
15 I will lay waste mountains and hills,
and dry up all their vegetation;
I will turn the rivers into islands,[c]
and dry up the pools.


God let Babylon behave as they chose. Until He decided to not do that anymore. If God was always in control of all things all the time? Think about that. Think about what that would mean for all humanity just as concerns the construct of Salvation/ Damnation! :( It's God playing chess. And we're the pawns. Forever.

This is your problem! You really don't believe in the sovereignty of God. You have a weak, impotent God, instead of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. God is always in control, and is above time. He always knows what is going to happen, because he is not confined within time, as we mere morals are. One day, you will understand this. But until then, I'm not going to deal with the rest. Your ignorance in hermeneutics bores me to tears. Your are completely clueless about how to correctly divide the word. I am saying this to you, not necessarily all Arminians.

See bolded blue large quotes within your quote!
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,985
319
83
#62
Oh, you are funny. Faith is not a work and is definitely not volitional.
:)

No one can "will" their belief in Christ..... it does not happen that way.
I disagree, faith is established and confirmed by works, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26).. Also read Hebrews 11, by faith Abraham did this, by faith Noah did that, etc.

And belief is a choice, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish". So when one hears the gospel and chooses to believe, they have willingly chose to accept a truth.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,191
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#63
"A man’s free will cannot cure him even of the toothache, or a sore finger; and yet he madly thinks it is in its power to cure his soul."

Augustus Toplady
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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#64
Free will--the ability to choose how to act. : the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.

Right here is the crux of the matter. Ppl do not like the thought of being not in control. It's the proverbial "my way or the highway" mentality. I am reminded by this ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’[Luke 19:14]

If they had a child out playing in the street and a car was barreling towards their child, to remain consistent with their free will theology, they wouldn't run and snatch the child away. They should stand there and tell their child, "Honey, there is a car barreling towards you! Please get out of the road!" The child then yells "No!" and keeps on playing. Over and over again, they keep pleading with their child to get out of harm's way, but to no avail. They keep telling them, "Child, I really, really do love you. I want the very best for you and want to come to me and get out of harm's way. But I will not force you to get out of the road. It's up to you to choose what you want to do. I will not force you to come to me. I have a better way for you, but its up to you to choose." Then all of a sudden, SPLAT!!

They stand before a judge and tell them how they handled that situation. Do you think that judge will tell them they did the prudent thing? Absolutely not! He gives them 20+ years in a state pen...if they're lucky.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#66
I disagree, faith is established and confirmed by works, "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26).. Also read Hebrews 11, by faith Abraham did this, by faith Noah did that, etc.

And belief is a choice, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish". So when one hears the gospel and chooses to believe, they have willingly chose to accept a truth.
"believeth" is not an act of the will.

You cannot make yourself believe.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,473
2,289
113
#67
So do you think you had some good in you, before God saved you? I know I did not!

Perhaps God did me a big favour, by allowing me to fall into a deep, dark pit before he saved me. There was no doubt in my mind I was depraved, even totally depraved, although I had never heard those terms until decades after God saved me.

I tried over and over to pull myself up by the bootstraps. It would work for a day or maybe more. But then, the total depravity would reassert itself. I started reading the Bible, but I was blind, it made no sense to me. People told me about Jesus, and how a sinner's prayer would save me. I said a sinner's prayer, and nothing happened. It was just my will.

But, when God lifted me out of that pit, in less than an instant, I was a new, redeemed person. I was changed, and had a new heart. I didn't decide anything, God called me, and I was a new creature in Christ. There was no change of my will, but a complete reordering of who I was by the Holy Spirit.

Maybe it is harder if you are a pretty good person, living a decent life, to acknowledge your own depravity. One might say, "Oh, I'm not perfect, but I try my best." What does "trying your best:" have to do with the will and purpose of God? If you are not transformed by the power of God, you are still as lost in that dark pit as I was, but you don't even realize it.

Be sure God has called you to this great a salvation. I am not saying that a belief system saves you. But certainly, in order to repent of your sin, you can't say that some areas need repenting, but I am 50% or 75% or even 2% good. Better to understand that no one is good, except God alone, (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19) and go from darkness to light. From total depravity to walking with Christ in his fullness.
I agree that you cannot save yourself. Man lacks the perfect righteousness that God requires of us. Man does have some good in himself and Jesus told some wicked men that very thing.

Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Totally unable to save oneself is true but totally unable to respond to the gospel is not true. Salvation is a gift given to unworthy souls because God loves and has mercy upon them while they are in their sin.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Compassion and mercy must have a place in Calvinism or it is merely a cheap knockoff of the true gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#68
Totally unable to save oneself is true but totally unable to respond to the gospel is not true.
This is it exactly right here!!
Stating a person cannot respond to the Gospel actually denies God the glory.

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,473
2,289
113
#69
"believeth" is not an act of the will.

You cannot make yourself believe.
Everyone is Arminian and has a free will until they get saved. Then they become Calvinist and deem themselves Calvinist elect. Like the church in Revelation 2 they have forgotten their first love.

I found it heart rending that Harold Camping held to Calvinist theology and would never allow himself to actually believe that he was saved. I heard him many times on his radio show endeavor to talk people out of their profession of faith. I only tuned him in to hear the good Christian music he had on the station. He is in Gods hands now and the books he wrote setting the date of Christs return have long been shown to be wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#70
Everyone is Arminian and has a free will until they get saved. Then they become Calvinist and deem themselves Calvinist elect. Like the church in Revelation 2 they have forgotten their first love.

I found it heart rending that Harold Camping held to Calvinist theology and would never allow himself to actually believe that he was saved. I heard him many times on his radio show endeavor to talk people out of their profession of faith. I only tuned him in to hear the good Christian music he had on the station. He is in Gods hands now and the books he wrote setting the date of Christs return have long been shown to be wrong.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Interesting, I did not know this about Harold Camping, only have limited knowledge about him and his date setting, I did not know he held to a Calvinist theology.:unsure:
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,220
113
www.christiancourier.com
#71
Oh, you are funny. Faith is not a work and is definitely not volitional.
:)

No one can "will" their belief in Christ..... it does not happen that way.
I expected not to be believed. Which is why I supported the facts with a link to one who is learned in the subject. I assure you they know what they are talking about.

It's unfortunate you find it funny when it is a matter of such importance in the church, body, of Christ, again.

It does not matter that you disagree. If you think God must exercise the "U" and "I" , that is part of the TULIP formula you've already lost the argument, because that formula cannot be arrived at using proper Exegesis.
Jesus never once said God would make us to be in His grace, and make us to have faith, because firstly He made us without free will. And I never once have said belief is a work nor faith is a work.

Feel free to believe as you wish.
See what I did there? :p
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
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#72
The word "autonomous" means "self-law".

In other words, the person is self-governing in the free-willer theology. He is not affected by external influences, including God.

This is what libertarian free will teaches. It posits that the will has not been corrupted by the fall, and has the power of contrary choice, or the power to act against one's nature.

By the way, God himself doesn't act contrary to his nature. So, vain man thinks that he can act according to a nature he doesn't possess, and that the will is a separate component from his corrupted soul.
I would agree the Spirit of Truth God cannot act contrary to His law of truth. The same law he himself is subject to that he magnifies above all his name . .

He is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires. He is he author and perfecter of free will . It is him working in us to both will and do his own God pleasure.

His name as a attribute is "Jealous" he owns the spirits and souls of all mankind. He will not share his unseen glory with the corruptipted flesh.

We are not to have gods in the likeness of men before Him

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

His love is not jealous freely giving us faith that comes from hearing His words to those who had none preciously.

From birth he conclude all in unbelief (no faith) by which they could understand and believe the Spirit of Truth not seen .

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, (no faith) that he might have mercy upon all.

Its how we look at the word faith (not of our own selves)Freely given a living hope. . the father of lies does not snatch the seed of faith away , . . before it as it is written works in us to soften our hearts, our sabbath rest. .

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is "no faith".

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my "heart soft", and the Almighty troubleth me:
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
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#73
Amen little brother....if we take his view to the proverbial tenth degree, God becomes the author of all evil act that men have committed......there is a balance to be struck in the middle from both sides of this coin.

The water influences the movement of a fish, but the fish goes where it wants to in the pond!
I would think our Faithful Creator in the beginning spoke as a work of His faith . . ." let it be" and it came into view calling it "good" to establish the unseen work.

God Is a God of cause and effect. The fish go where he directs them. He has bigger fish mankind Just as men like fish he works in us to both will and perform as his good pleasure. We should believe without murmuring as if what we did have did not come from him freely with no cost on our behalf .

John 21:10-12 King James Version (KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught. Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.
Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.


1 Corinthians 4:5-7 King James Version (KJV) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,704
1,911
113
#74
I would agree the Spirit of Truth God cannot act contrary to His law of truth. The same law he himself is subject to that he magnifies above all his name . .

He is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires. He is he author and perfecter of free will . It is him working in us to both will and do his own God pleasure.

His name as a attribute is "Jealous" he owns the spirits and souls of all mankind. He will not share his unseen glory with the corruptipted flesh.

We are not to have gods in the likeness of men before Him

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

His love is not jealous freely giving us faith that comes from hearing His words to those who had none preciously.

From birth he conclude all in unbelief (no faith) by which they could understand and believe the Spirit of Truth not seen .

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, (no faith) that he might have mercy upon all.

Its how we look at the word faith (not of our own selves)Freely given a living hope. . the father of lies does not snatch the seed of faith away , . . before it as it is written works in us to soften our hearts, our sabbath rest. .

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is "no faith".

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.For God maketh my "heart soft", and the Almighty troubleth me:
One important point..I am not sure if you meant this, but I would not separate God's moral law from himself, in terms of some law that has authority over him.

God's law reflects his nature. It is not some authority which rules over him, but reflects his own nature.

The only reason I mention this is that goofs like Charles Finney claimed that the moral law of God is something he himself is subject to. No, it reflects his nature, but he is not subject to it as a moral code.

Reading Charles Finney's Systematic Theology, or listening to guys who have learned from him, could be misleading as it is important to realize that God's moral law actually reflects God's holiness, rather than being something he is subject to. Hopefully you didn't intend that, though.

But, it is the basis for some false teachings amongst free willers of the Finney variety.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
32,967
10,894
113
65
Florida
#75
yes he does. or else we arent responsible for what we do.

another cult of calvin advertisement from this guy. he never gets tired of telling us he is reformed, every topic every post. what about just being christian?,
Wonder what he is reformed from?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,704
1,911
113
#76
Wonder what he is reformed from?
Reformed - a 16th-century movement for the reform of abuses in the Roman Catholic Church ending in the establishment of the Reformed and Protestant Churches.

Here's a series on Reformed theology, if you care to watch it:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/what_is_reformed_theology/

I would also suggest reading a book on church history. Justo Gonzales has a good one.

However, if you just want to crack jokes, without educating yourself so you know common words used within Christianity, continue on :)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,704
1,911
113
#78
What exactly are you talking about here?
Please be specific.
Read Romans 6, 7.

The believer has been delivered from the penalty of sin from the moment of salvation. He is being delivered from the power of sin over time. He will be delivered from the presence of sin at the resurrection.

There is a residual of the old nature called "the flesh". It is also called the "old man" and is related to Adam and his sinfulness. The believer continues to struggle with sinful impulses.

However, his identity is in Christ, and he has been raised to new life. Sanctification is about the person living out their identity in Christ.

If someone is at peace with their sin, that's an indication they are not a real believer. A real believer mourns his sinfulness.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,661
113
#79
Free will--the ability to choose how to act. : the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God.

Right here is the crux of the matter. Ppl do not like the thought of being not in control. It's the proverbial "my way or the highway" mentality. I am reminded by this ‘We do not want this man to reign over us.’[Luke 19:14]

If they had a child out playing in the street and a car was barreling towards their child, to remain consistent with their free will theology, they wouldn't run and snatch the child away. They should stand there and tell their child, "Honey, there is a car barreling towards you! Please get out of the road!" The child then yells "No!" and keeps on playing. Over and over again, they keep pleading with their child to get out of harm's way, but to no avail. They keep telling them, "Child, I really, really do love you. I want the very best for you and want to come to me and get out of harm's way. But I will not force you to get out of the road. It's up to you to choose what you want to do. I will not force you to come to me. I have a better way for you, but its up to you to choose." Then all of a sudden, SPLAT!!

They stand before a judge and tell them how they handled that situation. Do you think that judge will tell them they did the prudent thing? Absolutely not! He gives them 20+ years in a state pen...if they're lucky.
Your scenario blames the one true victim, the parent. There’s no blame given to the driver or the un-adhering child.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#80
Your faith must be a volitional response.
This statement makes me want to join a Reformed Church...sigh

I agree with @PennEd on this, no one can muster up faith, if faith is defined as a volitional response.