Does Oneness theology (Modalism) teach a "sock puppet" view of God's nature?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Yes OP

Ok.

Isn't their view something like this....the Father walks into the room and is God. Then, he exits and puts a mask on, and comes in as the Son. Then he exits again, and comes back in, with the Holy Spirit as his new mask?

In other words, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not exist as God at the same time.

And, the incarnate Jesus was only a human and not God?

So, in essence, the God nature talked to the Son nature, and there is no distinct Personhood between the Father and the Son?

In other words, God only pretends to have relationships with the other Persons of the Triune God. There are really no relationships between them.

Do you believe that the Son existed prior to the Incarnation?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

The essence of my argument above is that if Oneness Pentecostalism is true, there is only one Person. So, any alleged relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not exist.

Because one person cannot have a relationship with himself. It requires distinct persons to have relationships with each other.

 

[just_truth]

I'm not sure what you are asking.

I believe the Son is eternally subordinate in terms of role. This does not translate to subordination of nature, though. The Father and Son share the same nature.

What I know in Trinity the nature of the 3 persons for being God, to reiterate again why the Son does not know His second coming but the Father only? If he is an all-knowing God by nature. That only means, that the Father originally holds the nature of God while the human Son dependent on it. In Oneness theology, all the Father he had has given to the Son, in other words, the deity and authority of the Father are fully given to the Son that makes Jesus God Almighty.

 

[just_truth]

I'm not sure what you are asking.

I believe the Son is eternally subordinate in terms of role. This does not translate to subordination of nature, though. The Father and Son share the same nature.

Ok.

Isn't their view something like this....the Father walks into the room and is God. Then, he exits and puts a mask on, and comes in as the Son. Then he exits again, and comes back in, with the Holy Spirit as his new mask?

In other words, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not exist as God at the same time.

And, the incarnate Jesus was only a human and not God?

So, in essence, the God nature talked to the Son nature, and there is no distinct Personhood between the Father and the Son?

In other words, God only pretends to have relationships with the other Persons of the Triune God. There are really no relationships between them.

Do you believe that the Son existed prior to the Incarnation?

No, this is clearly distinct personhood of the Father and the Son as between Deity and human. But then, just like the Hypostatic union they are one. Not like the Trinity no clear distinction of the Father and the Son who are both deities.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

What I know in Trinity the nature of the 3 persons for being God, to reiterate again why the Son does not know His second coming but the Father only? If he is an all-knowing God by nature. That only means, that the Father originally holds the nature of God while the human Son dependent on it. In Oneness theology, all the Father he had has given to the Son, in other words, the deity and authority of the Father are fully given to the Son that makes Jesus God Almighty.

Consider it this way.

The Triune God never changed. Jesus assumed an additional nature in the Incarnation. This additional nature did not have access to the Triune God's full attributes, including omniscience.

Therefore, Jesus as a human was not omniscient, even though the Triune God is omniscient.

As far as your understanding of Oneness theology goes, how do you explain this?

During the Incarnation, was Jesus God? Or, did he cease being God in order to be man?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

No, this is clearly distinct personhood of the Father and the Son as between Deity and human. But then, just like the Hypostatic union they are one.

So, prior to the Incarnation, there was no Jesus in terms of a distinct Person, and there was no relationship between the Father and the Son prior to the Incarnation?

 

[just_truth]

Consider it this way.

The Triune God never changed. Jesus assumed an additional nature in the Incarnation. This additional nature did not have access to the Triune God's full attributes, including omniscience.

Therefore, Jesus as a human was not omniscient, even though the Triune God is omniscient.

As far as your understanding of Oneness theology goes, how do you explain this?

During the Incarnation, was Jesus God? Or, did he cease being God in order to be man?

To test that God really manifests in the flesh during the Incarnation he walks on earth as truly human but did not cease to be God(as the Father) where he relies on. Every time He does a miracle on earth it was the Father working in Him.

 

[just_truth]

So, prior to the Incarnation, there was no Jesus in terms of a distinct Person, and there was no relationship between the Father and the Son prior to the Incarnation?

There was already a relationship but not yet become actual reality on earth, the thing that cannot be seen yet already considered a reality in God's mindset.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

There was already a relationship but not yet become actual reality on earth, the thing that cannot be seen yet already considered a reality in God's mindset.

In other words, according to Oneness theology, Jesus did not exist as a distinct Person prior to the Incarnation. He was not in relationship with the Father prior to the Incarnation. Therefore, Jesus was not co-eternal and came into existence at the Incarnation, correct?

By the way I'm not going to be able to continue responding rapid-fire. I will look at your messages as I can, though. It would be interesting to understand your theology better, although I certainly don't acknowledge it as biblical.

 

[just_truth]

In other words, according to Oneness theology, Jesus did not exist as a distinct Person prior to the Incarnation. He was not in relationship with the Father prior to the Incarnation. Therefore, Jesus was not co-eternal and came into existence at the Incarnation, correct?

By the way I'm not going to be able to continue responding rapid-fire. I will look at your messages as I can, though. It would be interesting to understand your theology better, although I certainly don't acknowledge it as biblical.

Yes correct, and regarding the Incarnation, it was already planned by God before the world was. The plan already becomes a reality in God's mindset.

 

[just_truth]

By the way I'm not going to be able to continue responding rapid-fire. I will look at your messages as I can, though. It would be interesting to understand your theology better, although I certainly don't acknowledge it as biblical.

Okay UnitedWithChrist, by the way, is all professional Trinity believers are all the same thinking or answers about the reasoning of that Trinity views?

 

[just_truth]

UnitedWithChrist after the ascension of Jesus, the Holy Spirit began his operation on earth. Paul encountered the Holy Spirit and introduced himself, Jesus, as detailed in Acts 9:5. While in the book of Revelation, the Spirit speaks more than seven times, no other than Jesus.

 

[just_truth]

The Triune God never changed. Jesus assumed an additional nature in the Incarnation. This additional nature did not have access to the Triune God's full attributes, including omniscience.

What I see in your Triune God, the ‘God the Son’ is the second member of that triune, even if Jesus during the Incarnation still his divine side in that trinity remained got an access to the triune attributes, but then this is not the scenario of your trinity in real mcoy. Unluckily, your triune god is not really the pattern of the Godhead.

This is the harmonize pattern of Incarnation, Jesus humanity is the additional nature of alone God, His humanity did not have the access the full attributes of God(Father). As the scriptures say the Son does not know His second coming but only the Father, and further Jesus only followed the Father’s will, instead of his will.

 

[just_truth]

The video shows that Trinitarians cannot come to explain the trinity simply, but the Oneness believers can come to explain the oneness of God.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

What I see in your Triune God, the ‘God the Son’ is the second member of that triune, even if Jesus during the Incarnation still his divine side in that trinity remained got an access to the triune attributes, but then this is not the scenario of your trinity in real mcoy. Unluckily, your triune god is not really the pattern of the Godhead.

This is the harmonize pattern of Incarnation, Jesus humanity is the additional nature of alone God, His humanity did not have the access the full attributes of God(Father). As the scriptures say the Son does not know His second coming but only the Father, and further Jesus only followed the Father’s will, instead of his will.

I've already explained my position on this.

The issue with Oneness Pentecostalism is that there are no distinct Persons within the Triune God.

Therefore, when the Son talks to the Father, he is basically talking to Himself.

When the Father sends the Son, he basically is sending Himself.

When the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit, they are basically sending themselves.

When the Father loves the Son, or the Son loves the Father, God is loving Himself.

Without distinct Personhood, biblical statements in this regard are simply rendered to nonsense.

For instance, how can you have love with just one Person:

John 3:35 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
(ESV Strong's)


John 5:20 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person send himself?

John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
(ESV Strong's)

John 5:30 30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person return to himself?

John 14:28 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person witness to Himself under Jewish law? Answer: he cannot.


John 8:16-18 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”
(ESV Strong's)

All interaction between the Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit basically witness to the fact that God is a multi-personal being.

By the way, I recommend this video by Tim Martin on the problems with Oneness Pentecostalism (mostly the second video as it covers the absurdity of the One Person view of Oneness Pentecostalism):

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Okay UnitedWithChrist, by the way, is all professional Trinity believers are all the same thinking or answers about the reasoning of that Trinity views?

If you are asking whether all Trinitarians have an equal understanding on this issue, the answer is no.

Many don't try to understand the doctrine because it isn't important to them.

Others hold faulty understandings of the Trinity.

I came from an anti-Trinitarian cult so I am more interested in orthodox Christian doctrine than many of them.

Understanding the Trinity correctly is not essential to salvation, but if someone is anti-Trinitarian, that's an issue. Additionally, if they do not understand the Trinity, it will affect their understanding of other doctrines.

 

[just_truth]

I've already explained my position on this.

The issue with Oneness Pentecostalism is that there are no distinct Persons within the Triune God.

Therefore, when the Son talks to the Father, he is basically talking to Himself.

When the Father sends the Son, he basically is sending Himself.

When the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit, they are basically sending themselves.

When the Father loves the Son, or the Son loves the Father, God is loving Himself.

Without distinct Personhood, biblical statements in this regard are simply rendered to nonsense.

For instance, how can you have love with just one Person:

John 3:35 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
(ESV Strong's)


John 5:20 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person send himself?

John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
(ESV Strong's)

John 5:30 30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person return to himself?

John 14:28 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person witness to Himself under Jewish law? Answer: he cannot.


John 8:16-18 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”
(ESV Strong's)

All interaction between the Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit basically witness to the fact that God is a multi-personal being.

By the way, I recommend this video by Tim Martin on the problems with Oneness Pentecostalism (mostly the second video as it covers the absurdity of the One Person view of Oneness Pentecostalism):

What I see in your Triune God, the ‘God the Son’ is the second member of that triune, even if Jesus during the Incarnation still his divine side in that trinity remained got an access to the triune attributes, but then this is not the scenario of your trinity in real mcoy. Unluckily, your triune god is not really the pattern of the Godhead.

This is the harmonize pattern of Incarnation, Jesus humanity is the additional nature of alone God, His humanity did not have the access the full attributes of God(Father). As the scriptures say the Son does not know His second coming but only the Father, and further Jesus only followed the Father’s will, instead of his will.
I've already explained my position on this.

The issue with Oneness Pentecostalism is that there are no distinct Persons within the Triune God.

Therefore, when the Son talks to the Father, he is basically talking to Himself.

When the Father sends the Son, he basically is sending Himself.

When the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit, they are basically sending themselves.

When the Father loves the Son, or the Son loves the Father, God is loving Himself.

Without distinct Personhood, biblical statements in this regard are simply rendered to nonsense.

For instance, how can you have love with just one Person:

John 3:35 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
(ESV Strong's)


John 5:20 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person send himself?

John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
(ESV Strong's)

John 5:30 30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person return to himself?

John 14:28 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person witness to Himself under Jewish law? Answer: he cannot.


John 8:16-18 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”
(ESV Strong's)

All interaction between the Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit basically witness to the fact that God is a multi-personal being.

By the way, I recommend this video by Tim Martin on the problems with Oneness Pentecostalism (mostly the second video as it covers the absurdity of the One Person view of Oneness Pentecostalism): Back again with my previous reasoning, what you present to me it's all about related to his Incarnation and it's all go back since before the world was because of the plan of redemption had already begun since before the world was. To reiterate again, God's manifestation in the flesh (exactly related to Incarnation) is a divine mystery that man cannot comprehend but can be explained.

I have not seen yet the video, I just wake up this early morning. I'll take time, for now, to see it, after that I will give my assessment.

 

[just_truth]

I've already explained my position on this.

The issue with Oneness Pentecostalism is that there are no distinct Persons within the Triune God.

Therefore, when the Son talks to the Father, he is basically talking to Himself.

When the Father sends the Son, he basically is sending Himself.

When the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit, they are basically sending themselves.

When the Father loves the Son, or the Son loves the Father, God is loving Himself.

Without distinct Personhood, biblical statements in this regard are simply rendered to nonsense.

For instance, how can you have love with just one Person:

John 3:35 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
(ESV Strong's)


John 5:20 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person send himself?

John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
(ESV Strong's)

John 5:30 30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person return to himself?

John 14:28 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person witness to Himself under Jewish law? Answer: he cannot.


John 8:16-18 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”
(ESV Strong's)

All interaction between the Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit basically witness to the fact that God is a multi-personal being.

By the way, I recommend this video by Tim Martin on the problems with Oneness Pentecostalism (mostly the second video as it covers the absurdity of the One Person view of Oneness Pentecostalism):

Back again with my previous reasoning, what you present to me it's all about related to his Incarnation and it's all go back since before the world was because of the plan of redemption had already begun since before the world was. To reiterate again, God's manifestation in the flesh (exactly related to Incarnation) is a divine mystery that man cannot comprehend but can be explained.

I have not seen yet the video, I just wake up this early morning. I'll take time for now to see it, after that I will give my assessment.

 

[just_truth]

What I see in your Triune God, the ‘God the Son’ is the second member of that triune, even if Jesus during the Incarnation still his divine side in that trinity remained got an access to the triune attributes, but then this is not the scenario of your trinity in real mcoy. Unluckily, your triune god is not really the pattern of the Godhead.

This is the harmonize pattern of Incarnation, Jesus humanity is the additional nature of alone God, His humanity did not have the access the full attributes of God(Father). As the scriptures say the Son does not know His second coming but only the Father, and further Jesus only followed the Father’s will, instead of his will.
I've already explained my position on this.

The issue with Oneness Pentecostalism is that there are no distinct Persons within the Triune God.

Therefore, when the Son talks to the Father, he is basically talking to Himself.

When the Father sends the Son, he basically is sending Himself.

When the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit, they are basically sending themselves.

When the Father loves the Son, or the Son loves the Father, God is loving Himself.

Without distinct Personhood, biblical statements in this regard are simply rendered to nonsense.

For instance, how can you have love with just one Person:

John 3:35 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
(ESV Strong's)


John 5:20 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person send himself?

John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life
(ESV Strong's)

John 5:30 30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person return to himself?

John 14:28 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I
(ESV Strong's)

How can one Person witness to Himself under Jewish law? Answer: he cannot.


John 8:16-18 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me. 17 In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. 18 I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”
(ESV Strong's)

All interaction between the Persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit basically witness to the fact that God is a multi-personal being.

By the way, I recommend this video by Tim Martin on the problems with Oneness Pentecostalism (mostly the second video as it covers the absurdity of the One Person view of Oneness Pentecostalism): Back again with my previous reasoning, what you present to me it's all about related to his Incarnation and it's all go back since before the world was because of the plan of redemption had already begun since before the world was. To reiterate again, God's manifestation in the flesh (exactly related to Incarnation) is a divine mystery that man cannot comprehend but can be explained.

I have not seen yet the video, I just wake up this early morning. I'll take time, for now, to see it, after that I will give my assessment.

Back again with my previous reasoning, what you present to me THE VERSES it's all about related to his Incarnation and it's all STARTED since before the world was because of the plan of redemption had already begun since before the world was. To reiterate again, God's manifestation in the flesh (exactly related to Incarnation) is a divine mystery that man cannot comprehend but can be explained.

I have not seen yet the video, I just wake up this early morning. I'll take the time to see it, after that I will give my assessment.

 

[just_truth]

The issue with Oneness Pentecostalism is that there are no distinct Persons within the Triune God.

Therefore, when the Son talks to the Father, he is basically talking to Himself.

When the Father sends the Son, he basically is sending Himself.

When the Father and Son send the Holy Spirit, they are basically sending themselves.

When the Father loves the Son, or the Son loves the Father, God is loving Himself.

Without distinct Personhood, biblical statements in this regard are simply rendered to nonsense.

For instance, how can you have love with just one Person:

The Trinitarians illustrate their triune god in which the center something an unknown god or unidentified god in which the three persons got their powers, the said illustration cannot coincide in the Scriptures. While this is the way the NT illustrates God, the Father is basically pointed as the only true God and even Jesus recognizes that many times. So the right illustration of God, the leader is the identified God who is the Father where the Son and Holy Spirit got their powers.