Does original sin exist?

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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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#21
i know one that didnt sin.

all have sinned is not the same as being born with sin.
That One was the One Who overcame Adam's sin. But 'all sinned' is in the aorist, and it is specifically said that the reason that they sinned was not because of their own sins, but because of the imputation of Adam's sin.

It goes on to say, 'many died as a result of one man's trespass,' 'judgment following one trespass brought condemnation', 'one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men', 'by one man's disobedience many were made sinners', and all this is compared with the one man's act of righteousness.

We may not like the doctrine but we cannot honesty deny that Paul clearly stated that one man's sin resulted in condemnation for all, whether by imputation or impartation or both. in the same way as Christ's one act of righteousness availed for us all.
 
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preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#22
Original sin is a made up doctrine by pagans, go ask any Jew with even basic knowledge and they will tell you nope, we dont believe in the original sin.
Every once in a while there is a need to respond to the unfounded and erroneous comments on a Christian forum. Yours fits that criteria. :)

What makes you think that a Jew would even remotely believe in NT biblical truth? Or even to OT biblical truth? Jews outside of Christ are lost, just like every other human on the planet; Romans 3:9; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 3:23.

Talking to a Jew is not the way to the truth of the matter, the Word of God is, something the Jews have rejected. I find it remarkable that persons simply make unsubstantiated claims, that original sin is pagan in nature, then run off to a hypothetical "ask a Jew" absurdness.

Here are some passages to consider: 1 John 5:19; Galatians 3:22; Romans 3:19-20; Psalm 51:9; Ephesians 2:3.

Note this link:

What is the biblical evidence for original sin? | Desiring God

It was a later development (much like many other false doctrines, immortal soul for example) made by pagan people influenced by greek philosophy.
More false unsubstantiated claims...

Unfortunately the church lost the Israelites, and never recovered since.
When did this fabricated event take place? Is this normal behavior for you to just make up random statements that are unfounded?

The church is fine and doing well, as always; Acts 14:17; Romans 11:5. Apostate churches do not reflect or compose the true bride of Christ.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#23
That One was the One Who overcame Adam's sin. But 'all sinned' is in the aorist, and it is specifically said that the reason that they sinned was not because of their own sins, but because of the imputation of Adam's sin.

It goes on to say, 'many died as a result of one man's trespass,' 'judgment following one trespass brought condemnation', 'one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men', 'by one man's disobedience many were made sinners', and all this is compared with the one man's act of righteousness.

We may not like the doctrine but we cannot honesty deny that Paul clearly stated that one man's sin resulted in condemnation for all, whether by imputation or impartation or both. in the same way as Christ's one act of righteousness availed for us all.
i agree with Paul."all have sinned" but i think there are sxceptions as Jesus did not. i dont think we are born with sin, the Father says we are not.
i think its a complex issue and attempting to fix it with original sin doctrine doesnt solve it.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#24
Originally Posted by valiant
That One was the One Who overcame Adam's sin. But 'all sinned' is in the aorist, and it is specifically said that the reason that they sinned was not because of their own sins, but because of the imputation of Adam's sin.

It goes on to say, 'many died as a result of one man's trespass,' 'judgment following one trespass brought condemnation', 'one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men', 'by one man's disobedience many were made sinners', and all this is compared with the one man's act of righteousness.

We may not like the doctrine but we cannot honesty deny that Paul clearly stated that one man's sin resulted in condemnation for all, whether by imputation or impartation or both. in the same way as Christ's one act of righteousness availed for us all.
i agree with Paul."all have sinned" but i think there are sxceptions as Jesus did not. i dont think we are born with sin, the Father says we are not.

i think its a complex issue and attempting to fix it with original sin doctrine doesnt solve it.
Paul thought it did. And Jesus was the only exception because of the virgin birth.

but of course you do not believe the Scriptures.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#25
Paul thought it did. And Jesus was the only exception because of the virgin birth.
Paul said "all" not all but those of virgin births.

but of course you do not believe the Scriptures.
like this one:
EZ 18 19-20
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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#26
Paul said "all" not all but those of virgin births.
Paul was not dealing with the one unusual exception. you are splitting hairs. In Scripture 'all' means all in general.



like this one:
EZ 18 19-20
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
This is dealing with a different subject, and that is in general whether a son suffers for his father's sin.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#27
i agree with Paul.
Sometimes you agree with the Word, other times you don't and run to your Arianism.

"all have sinned" but i think there are sxceptions as Jesus did not.
There is only one exception, and yes, YHWH did not and cannot sin. Note Ecclesiastes 7:20.

i dont think we are born with sin,
But what you think isn't authoritative and Scripture begs to differ with you on many things. :)

the Father says we are not.
That's blatantly false.

i think its a complex issue and attempting to fix it with original sin doctrine doesnt solve it.
The doctrine expresses it accurately and biblically.
 
Jun 6, 2015
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#28
If original sin exists, then what is it? Is not original sin the ability to discern between good and evil?
We are not born with the original sin but we suffer the consequence, Gen.2:17 God said from the tree of good and evil you shall not eat or you shall surly die this day, according to 2nd Peter a day with the Lord is a thousand year, nobody has lived more then a day since then. God bless
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
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#29
Paul was not dealing with the one unusual exception. you are splitting hairs. In Scripture 'all' means all in general.
Each 'all' must be treated in its own individual contexts, so it is not that simple or general.



This is dealing with a different subject, and that is in general whether a son suffers for his father's sin.
You are correct here sir, that is a different contextual issue altogether, but it serves as a pre-text or proof-text for those who employ a weak hermeneutic.
 
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jaybird88

Guest
#30
Sometimes you agree with the Word, other times you don't and run to your Arianism.
how would we know what Arius thought on the doctrine, rome burned all his work and he died like 50 years before Augustine was even born.



There is only one exception, and yes, YHWH did not and cannot sin. Note Ecclesiastes 7:20.
there is no exception mentioned in that passage.



But what you think isn't authoritative and Scripture begs to differ with you on many things. :)
i never said my thoughts were the final authority for others to follow. this is exactly what i have been speaking against this whole time, councils of men, such as me, telling the masses what to do. please pay attention.



That's blatantly false.
how else would you read a scripture that says

"The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father"
and
"The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself"



The doctrine expresses it accurately and biblically.
sure it does, as long as you can ignore scripture that says different
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#31
Paul was not dealing with the one unusual exception. you are splitting hairs. In Scripture 'all' means all in general.
all means all where i come from

This is dealing with a different subject, and that is in general whether a son suffers for his father's sin.

so when the passage says we are accountable for our own wickedness what it really should say is we are held accountable for our wickedness and anyone elses wickedness with the exception of our father? doesent make much sense to me.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,345
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Tennessee
#32
I have yet to run across any bible passage referring to 'original sin'. In order to sin you must willfully do something that is sinful. I would have to say that 'original sin' is only a concept and not an actual precept stated in the bible.
 
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willybob

Guest
#33
sin is not a thing in the manner of a material substance, it has no atomic weight, no chromosomes, cant be seen under a microscope, is not a mysterious malady lurking within ones flesh, AND especially it is not transferable, see Exek. 18, neither is righteousness transferable, but rather both are something we do. We are born into a world of sinful deeds (Babylon), but not in sin..We were made wonderfully and fearfully in the womb Psalms 139, still in God's image, Gen 9-6 ..We did not inherit our soul from Adam, but rather our flesh only..However we did also inherit the influence of sin, and the consequences of sin, but no the sin itself..Man is made upright but he is inventive of evil devices, saith Solomon..The apostle James tells us how sin is birthed when LUST IS CONCEIVED in the heart.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: [TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
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[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (confirmed by Ezekiel 18-20; the son shall not inherit the sins of the father, but the soul that sinneth it shall die)....The born in sin lie had actually become a false proverb in the land of Israel, God said ye shall no longer speak this proverb. The whole chapter of Ezek. 18 was dedicated by God in order to untangle the lie of original sin...Augustine/Ambros brought the lie into the church based on the writings of Plato..


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willybob

Guest
#34
The false doctrine of original sin-nature: part 1


“Man…is the image and glory of God.” I Corinthians 11:7
“Men, which are made after the similitude of God.” James 3:9



The body in of itself is not sinful: It has no ability to sin. Its the freewill choice of the heart of the soul that rebels against God. "the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezek. 18

2 Timothy 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Would the Holy Spirit live in a sinful environment?

1Cor. 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Would a sinful body be called a temple? The flesh itself is not sinful, living after the lusts of the flesh is
The false doctrine of total depravity and inability to obey God is at the very core of the doctrine of original sin. According to those who argue in favor of original sin, all men, even those who are Christians, have a corrupt, sinful nature and are unable to obey God as long as they are in this life: Augustine, the corrupt father of the doctrine of original sin, taught that salvation depends on God's inscrutable election and predestination. Which came to be even more magnified by Luther, Calvin, and the Reformation .This doctrine is so out of character with the bible, in that it contradicts all its fundamental teachings. This is something that no true doctrine of the bible would do, but is exactly what would be expected of a false doctrine.
Original-sin is so engrained into the minds of Christian thought that it has become like bedrock. That by itself should be a clue of being in error and worthy of investigation in the scriptures. The fact is, the doctrine of original sin is so contrary to the scriptures that to try and make the two harmonize would be like trying to make light and darkness exist together in one and the same place.


Only by changing all the other doctrines, which they have done, could it harmonize with the text. The most fundamental doctrines of the Bible are contradicted by the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine of mercy, grace, guilt, pardon, and repentance all have to be redefined, and this is what has happened.


The insidious idea that "if men are born with a so-called sinful nature, then man himself is not guilty. And if man is not guilty, then Jesus died in vain".


The doctrine of inherited sin makes a mockery of Christ! Christ died for our sins, of which we all have chose to sin, just like Adam did; a hard saying who can hear it. If the sinner truly believes that he was born a sinner which then enhances the doctrine that he cannot live without sin, believing he is the Romans wretch he will at the very least secretly excuse his sins. It's no great wonder that the global homosexual movement says that they were born that way. Isn't that what the church pundits have been teaching them? (everybody is born in sin they claim). So are not the gays just following suit by saying we were born this way? Once again this false doctrine gives the sinner an excuse for his sins. God never once excuses sin but rather warns of an awful judgement that awaits sinners continually from Geneses to Revelation. There is not one verse in the bible that says "sin-nature", or child and sin, or children and sin, but rather the bible says man is evil from his youth.
The Bible teaches that children cannot be sinners and guilty and condemned at birth, for they do not know the difference between good and evil, and have not yet come to the "age of accountability": Moses expresses this in the book of Deuteronomy in chapter 1.


"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." Deuteronomy 1:39



Is Paul speaking to the heathens on Mars hill in Acts ch. 17, teaching those who seek the Lord that they inherited the genetics of Adam? No way,,, God breathed the breath of life into every person "the offspring of God" (Acts 17:28, 29). What heresy to say our soul/spirit is already tainted by sin at birth. We were formed fearfully and wonderfully in the womb by God in Psalms 139, and there is no sin in HIM. We were made to fear God and hate sin. Seems strange that if this were true we should also be born in sin. Nay, may God forbid! Sin is an "act" of disobedience to Gods' commands, not a genetic trait, it is an issue of a chosen moral action...Sin has no atomic weight, nor do the works of righteousness have an atomic weight, both are a choice of action. However, our bodies indeed were born corruptible and will suffer infirmities and die. But our souls are born innocent.


Acts 17-27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.



God does not demand of us or hold us RESPONSIBLE for that which we cannot be accountable for. Jesus, for example, said, "If you were blind, you would have no sin" (John 9:41). Jesus is teaching about being unable to comprehend right from wrong, and of course He was implying that the Pharisees could do such in verse 41.
Infants have no sin because God does not hold them accountable for that which they know not. Paul taught this also, he was "alive" but then "when sin became alive" he died, or was separated from God, (Romans 7-, 7, 8, 9).
The innocence of children referenced in the OT.

Deuteronomy 1:39 - Describes children as having no knowledge of good or evil (Innocent/ Jonah 4:11 - is a reference implying that Gentile children are unable to discern between right or wrong Psalm 106:38 - And shed innocent blood even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. Psalm 127:3 - Behold, Children are a GIFT of the Lord; The Fruit of the Womb is a Reward Joel 3:19 One must ask; is sin a gift from the Lord? Answer, no!!! - Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have ‘shed innocent blood’ in their land. Psalm 27:10 - When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.


One reads in vain for the idea of original sin in the account of man's fall as related in the account given in Gen ch 3. Genesis records many consequences resulting from the first transgression by Adam. There is pain in child birth, the ground was cursed, and physical death (the body returning to dust) is decreed. But nothing at all about infants or children inheriting the guilt of Adam's sin.


"Everyone who doeth sin practices lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4). Sin is an "act" of unrighteousness, not a genetic thing lurking in the flesh. It is something we do. It is an "act" that is lawless, or contrary to God's law. The bible NEVER refers to sin as a substance or something that we are born with, it is not a genetic inheritance. It is never defined in God's word as an inherited trait. It seems that every known theologian in the 16th century reformation missed this simple truth.


Psalms 51 -5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom

The Calvinists will build a whole theology around one faulty and carnal understanding of a verse.
David is not the object of the sin in this passage in verse 5, it is his mother. But it is much deeper in meaning...In proper context and in metaphoric expressive language David is giving a prayer of repentance and sorrow, not a prayer of excuses because he was born a sinner.


"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me". David does not imply he inherited his parents sins...It is a song of repentance. David is expressing, with strong expressive language the anguish of his guilt. The Psalms are not there to introduce theology or to spell out doctrine, they are there for the purposes of expression...one such example in Psalms, David' says; "my bones singing out". Of course that is not literal, just as Psalms 51-5 is not literal. David is lamenting over the loss of his son because of his own sin. He is confessing his own personal sin throughout this Psalm. .blot out "MY" transgressions,,,Wash "ME" thoroughly from "MY" iniquity,,,,cleanse "ME" from my sin,,,For I know "MY" transgressions,,,"MY" sin is ever before me. This is not a Psalm of EXCUSE because he was born in sin.
Against you, you only, have I sinned...David is overwhelmed with the consciousness of his own sin as he looks back on his life. David is accepting full responsibility for his actions. He is not seeking to pass his sin off on a former existing born in sin-nature condition. David is not making a statement about the origin of sin; he is making a statement about the depth of his own sin..
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One cannot read through the Psalms and receive every statement as literal, if so; one will end up with all sorts of heretical doctrines. To read this verse out of context would make it a direct contradiction to Psalms 139-14. In fact, when David was born, or brought forth from his mother's womb, he was brought forth in his mother’s iniquity. For she had 2 or 3 daughters from a concubine out of sin before David was born of her through Jesse. Also look at verse 3; David says he sinned ONLY against God. This cannot be taken literal as doctrine either, for David did sin also against Bathsheba, Uriah and his General. Psalms are an expression and metaphoric in many places not to be taken literally all the time
Are babies born sinners???

The lie that we are born in sin...
Calvinists will quite often lift up St. Augustine as being one of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time. Augustine is the theological creator of the Latin-Catholic system and much of their doctrine. Augustine a Catholic, he was the principal creator of the RCC of many false doctrines in which Calvin himself claimed to detest. Go figure. Why? Because Calvin was a man of confusion of faces.... Augustine prayed to Mary for the forgiveness of sins. Augustine is one of the most prominent Catholic Church Fathers, and is praised as one of the greatest Christian thinkers of all time by many Predestination Calvinists and many other Protestants like Spurgeon. He is the father of most of the false doctrine in Christianity. also studied devoutly under the writings of Plato, and Plutinus.


Does Genesis to Revelation ever say that there us anything wrong with our nature? No. No scripture ever says there was a change in man's nature. Nature did not change, relationship/fellowship changed and man needs reconciliation.
Where does scripture say man is born unable in his nature? That, if he was in relationship with God in this world he'd sin because of his nature? There's NOT ONE verse in ALL of scripture that says or implies such a thing. In fact Gen. 4-7 says the opposite.


Sin-nature heresy is found in Greek Philosophy, Eastern Mysticism, Gnosticism. But it's not found in the bible. The early church fathers fought against this heresy. 1 John repeatedly addresses the Gnostic's and he called them seducers, deceived, and antichrists.


Jesus himself being fully God, but also fully man (Son of man), as HE took on the flesh and bone of man, being born of Mary's egg. The Son of God proceeded from God the Father, overshadowed by the person of the Holy Ghost conceived through the egg of Mary, in Mary's womb...How could Jesus be born in sin? He wasn't

Willie
 
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willybob

Guest
#35
Part 2

For example; the Augustine heresy teaching that a child being born of the flesh of Adam makes him born into sin. This false theology was developed by Augustine, then adopted by Luther/Calvin/Arminious....The bible will easily disprove this...Knowing of a truth, this first; that Jesus was born of Mary's egg, Mary was not a surigut mother, Jesus took on the flesh and bone of "man"... This means that Jesus in His seed line in Luke ch 3 was a direct decedent of Adam in the flesh... Jesus was most defiantly born of Adam's flesh. The bible says that Jesus had no sin in HIM. Yet heretics will say that all born of the flesh of Adam are born in sin...If this were true, then Jesus would have been born a sinner....


The problem with the false doctrine of born in sin is this; if we were born into sin, then so would Jesus have to be born into sin...


It has been a lie for 1600 years, and a very suitable one for manipulating and merchandising the flock...Keep them born in sin, and forever in their sin, even in Purgatory, and one can make a more than comfortable living fleecing the flock for the rest of his days.


Jesus was born into the same flesh as you and me. Scripture say, he was made in "all" ways like his brethren? He was born of Adams flesh and we are born of Adams flesh...He, possessing by birth, the same flesh, and thereby the same temptations we experience while never yielding to them (He being full of grace and truth), seems to serve rather to the magnification of His glory as the Son of God, as opposed to supposing that somehow his glory is diminished thereby. Jesus said, "I am the root and the offspring of David," are we to discern that David sprang forth from the root of Christ having a sinful nature? Or, are we to understand that Jesus, as the offspring of David, was born with a sinful nature? Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, He created David and was the offspring of David. We know that Jesus did not create David a sinner, and we know that Jesus was not born a sinner as the offspring of David.


We absolutely do inherit physical and temporal consequences form Adams sin, just as Jesus did also, because God cursed the ground, being born into a world full of suffering and a far cry from what God had originally intended for mankind. We inherit the consequences of Adams’ sin, but we do not inherit his sin. Ezek. 18 is very clear about this.


Adam’s sin does not condemn the child to being made a sinner...All were formed in the womb by God. According to some Christians, eating, pooping, crying, and being dependent on their parents is a sin. They never thought to realize, that Jesus like us, must have also did these very same things. Crying is their only form of communication other than reaching out with their arms. There is not one verse in the bible that speaks of a baby or child's sin. Not one...It is no marvel that Jesus said we must come as a child. We must be "like children", humble and innocent before the Lord, to enter the kingdom of heaven.
If children are already sinful, why does Jesus use them for an example? And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Verily, I say to you, unless you turn and become like a child, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. This child could enter into heaven because he had no sin, and Jesus was using him for an example...Yes it is also expressing an example of child like faith as well... We must come to Him like little child, helpless. A child must depend on his parents to sustain life, and like a child, we too must depend on our Savior to sustain eternal life. Jesus didn't preach about 'genetics' when He came 2000 years ago. Sin has nothing to do with 'genetics'...Although the decay of man and the creation does have to do with genetics, because God cursed the earth, but man is not held responsible for Adams sin. When Adam sinned, however, the Lord cursed the universe. In essence there was a change, and along with that change God began to uphold the creation in a cursed state, and still holding it in place by HIS word unto the day of judgement, spoken of by the apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3.. Suffering and death entered into His creation. The whole universe now suffers from the effects of sin (Romans 8:22)." This is the condition of the creation after 2 severe curses by God, and this is what we inherited from Adam's sin, we inherited a corrupt universe. We inherit not Adam's sin nature genetics.
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Even though Jesus was without sin, HIS own flesh was still corruptible just as ours is. However He put on incorruptible flesh when He was Resurrected... Jesus himself was not corruptible, but His flesh was in-fact of this creation and all-things of this creation are corruptible and die, thus His flesh body was raised and made a new and incorruptible body...

Ezek 18-20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.



"The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Job 33:4
But when God says he has created us "in His image," and has given us "life and breath and all things," are we to understand that He created us as sinners?


The only thing we inherit from Adam's sin is not the sin itself, but rather the consequences of it when God cursed the earth...We enter into a world of sin as innocent new borns. God cursed the serpent and the ground, but he did not curse Adam or Eve.


Adam was made in the image of God, yet Adam sinned. He was capable of sinning both before and after the fall. When Adam sinned there was as of yet no fall. Why did Adam sin? Was he created with a sin nature? What happened at the fall that would change Adam's nature? God did not curse Adam, He cursed the serpent and the ground, and then he cursed the ground for a 2nd and final time in Gen ch 7 with a flood.


How was Adam's nature different after he sinned than before? Yes his eyes were open, but his nature did not change, he sinned before and after. If Adam was made in the image of God, wouldn't that mean that Seth was also made in the image of God? Genesis 9:6 "Whosoever sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man". If man was no longer in God's image then Moses would have no purpose in quoting this statement in verse 6. His argument against killing is that man is created in God's image. He is not saying don't kill because man used to be in God's image. The use of this statement requires that Moses understood the passage to mean man is still made in God's image. All sinners need to be conformed to the image of Christ, because of sin in their lives, but people are born in the image of God, not in sin. What did God mean when he said "let us make man in our image"?


"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Romans 4:15)
Hebrews 2:16-17 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Jesus took on the seed of Abraham who was a sinner in need of a Saviour. If Abraham was born a sinner from Adam then his sin-nature was then transferred to Jesus..>Once again this makes Jesus born in sin .But we know that Jesus had no sin in HIM....Abraham lived by faith and it was accounted to him for righteousness, Hebrews 11


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:10
All are judged according to what we have done (free-will)....

Willie
 
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willybob

Guest
#36
Part 3

Sin reigned between Adam and Moses (the time period without the given Law (10 Commandments) because men still had the light of conscience (Romans 2:14-16). Thus between Adam and Moses people sinned against their conscience without a direct command. Adam violated a direct commandment (a given law) whilst those between Adam and Moses violated their conscience.
"If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, His Son cleanses us from all sin" 1 John 1:7.

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

These verses listed above are not speaking of one’s natural birth into sin.

The phrase “by nature” does not mean “by birth”. check out the Greek on this one. In context these 3 verses mean that wicked men are not naturally good, but rather, naturally and habitually sinful, (he loves sin,) and he has a natural tendency toward sin because if his own addictions and choices. Mans’ heart is deceitfully wicked and who can know it? Jeremiah 17-9. (the wicked) He is evil from his youth a natural tendency formed from habits embraced toward sin among the wicked. Having a sinful nature to sin does not mean born of sin and Jeremiah is only speaking of the wicked in chapter 17 not the righteous,


One of the several possible meanings of “by nature” is ‘a sensual addiction or habit of feeling, and by acting out which by use of long bad habits over time has become one’s own nature. This would be in keeping with the rest of this passage. “you once walked” (imperfect tense – indicating habitual action) “carrying out” (also imperfect


Romans 2:14 "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law require..."
Does this mean it is the nature of the Gentiles to obey the law? That would contradict the claim that we are all born sinful.
There was no provision given under the law to enter into eternal life. So, keeping the law could not give eternal life. It was by Faith in the OT Hebrews Ch. 11

The Law of the Lord brings death (reveals sin) and Jesus Christ brings life (remission of sin).

Jesus told people to repent and believe the gospel because the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand... He warned many religious people because they were so set in their traditions of men that they had become 'hardened' in the heart. A heart of which has no mercy or forgiveness, a heart that had become exalted and self-righteous, full of spiritual pride just like their father the devil. Of which is a spiritual problem and a condition of the heart, not an inherited genetic problem of the flesh....Guilt or innocence is a question of behavior. So, until a new born child has done something wrong, he is innocent, if not, he would feel guilty over his sin. Remember Adam covered himself with fig leaves because he had guilt. He knew of his sin because he had knowledge of sin...An innocent baby does not...


Being born into a sinful world does not condemn the child to being a sinner. Born and fashioned in the womb in sin? No... Born into sin? Yes...thus the world is sinful, and the child will most likely sin once they realize right from wrong, this conviction is given to us by the conscience out pouring of the Holy Ghost John 16-8



Free will sinners is a choice that we cannot make until we reach the age of understanding, and all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus was not a sinner; He was tempted just as we are, but remained sinless, if this wasn't so, then HIS crucifixion was in vain. Jesus cannot abide with sin, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, because the flesh is corrupt, and weak, easily tempted. This is why Paul said that this corruptible must put on incorruption.
Not "by Adam himself", but rather by Adam's "disobedience". Likewise Jesus' "obedience". A very big difference. To grasp the truth of God's words, it must be "cut straight" and not twisted to our own carnal and sensual understanding.
Neither obedience nor disobedience is inherited. To say one is inherited, is to then necessarily say that the other is also. Thus, they are either both inherent or they are both not. It takes very little effort and study in the word to see the problems with this false theory of inherent sin-nature. Hebrews 12 says that Easu and Jacob while wrestling in the womb did neither good nor evil... And especially is this the result when trying to harmonize it with the inspired words of Solomon, "Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes" Eccl 7:29. Once again God is not a molder of sin in the womb, for HE made man upright.


Psalm 139- 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14-For you have formed my inward parts: you have covered me in my mother's womb. For thou hast possessed my reins."
Thou art the owner and have kept my inner most parts and person: (stars that all differ 1 Cor 15-45) not the indweller and observer only, but the acknowledged Lord and possessor of my most secret individual person made uniquely by God and knitted in the womb. Those who know God indeed and of a truth who first know the Lord, and then know all things in him. David was made to know the marvelous nature of God's work, for he had found by experience and revelation that the Lord is a Master Creator. This coming into being as a marvelous work of the omniscient and omnipresent omnipotence of God

Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb - to interweave; to weave; to knit together, and the literal translation would be, "Thou hast "woven" me in my mother's womb, meaning that God had put his parts together, as one who weaves cloth, or who makes a basket. God does not weave sin. No not possible.


Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
We were all fashioned marvelous and innocent in the womb.
Both Job's manservant and maidservant were made by the Lord just as Job was...The God of the bible said he formed them in the womb. I would think it is impossible for God to form, fashion, or make something of sin....For God even created Satan perfect in all his ways.(Exek. 28), ....We were made innocent like Adam and chose to sin, because our free-will and a selfish nature which is liken to Adam. God makes the bodies and creates the souls of all men just as at the first, all are formed and fashioned by Him, and they have all the same rational powers and faculties of the soul. Children are born innocent, they become indoctrinated and corrupted by the adults and world around them.


Is God the author of sin? No, He hates sin, its man who chooses to sin. Just as Adam and Eve did when they were given a commandment. The nature of man in his flesh hates the law, as Romans chapters 5,6,7,8 explain. Once man becomes dead God will call him and he must "put forth his hand" Gen. 3, and feed from the tree of life (the free-will to seek God and accept God's grace and covenant in Jesus Christ).Seek and ye shall find.


Romans Chapter 7-7,8,9, says there is no sin without first having the knowledge of the law given to us. Same with Adam; it was impossible for Adam to sin until God gave him a commandment.
Romans7-7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the law sin? God forbid... was our conscience that was formed in us sin? Nay! God forbade. Our conscience conviction is the law.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
But sin taking now "occasion" (a starting point) by the way of our conscience conviction (the law that commands) now brought into Paul all manner of desires, lusts. I think this answers the question of babies and born sinners. We sin because we choose to. Also man can only sin against his knowledge of the truth.


world.G874 "occasion"
????????
aphorme?

af-or-may'
From a compound of 575 and 3729 a starting point, that is, (figuratively) an opportunity: - occasion.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. For example mentally impaired or retarded people have much less knowledge of the truth and are judged in accordance to their accountability. In some cases I perceived many of them are innocent like children are.


Romans 7:7-9...Paul was alive without the knowledge of sin, but when Paul now had the knowledge of the commandment sin revived and Paul died. Here Paul says he was alive once without the law. Most certainly the law was in existence before Paul was born, so what does he mean? Paul uses alive and dead as metaphors to describe the conviction of the law and sin which separates man from God. His being alive without the law, means before he understood the law he was not condemned by the law, but when the law came, or when he understood the law, He died, became condemned by the law. Essentially he is saying that before he understood the law he was not convicted by sin, however after he understood the law he became guilty of sin. Paul also spoke in Romans 4 of this. Same thing with Adam, if he ate of the tree of knowledge with out God giving him a commandment not to, it would not have been imputed to him as sin.
.

Romans 4:12-16
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. .Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


There is no law in the mind not capable of comprehending the law.
If we are honest with ourselves, we will realize that Adam is a fair representative for all of us. If a perfect person in a perfect place decided to disobey God's rules, so can we. . Romans 5-12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" .Not because they were born in sin, but because they sinned. Death came by way of the consequences of Adams sin, as a curse came upon the earth.
The law now is our conscience.


Romans 5-19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
If read properly; many has to be the same in both parts of this verse, it does not say "all", so I ask here who are the many? If there are many then there must also be a few who did not sin. Who are these few? Those who have died before they had the knowledge of sin. Obedience; This is man’s free-will responsibility to respond to his knowledge of the law written on his mind. God says this starting point of sin takes place from his youth in Gen. ch. 8. Man is evil from his youth. This is the age of accountability of a person. People are formed in the womb by God and born innocent without sin...
Many just as Adam became disobedient, Adam was of the age of accountability, babies are not.

Willie
 
W

willybob

Guest
#37
Part 4

For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19
What does this verse mean? The word "make" is idiomatic in some cases. Take for instance this verse from Matthew 12,
Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. In this instance, Jesus is using the word "make", not as a synonym for "construct", or "create", but as a synonym for "identify" or "classify." The tree is classified as "good" or "bad" depending on what kind of fruit it produces. Jesus said, if continued in, the truth will MAKE you free from sin.


Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Paul is using the term "made" in the same sense as Jesus was using it. When he says that one man's disobedience "made" the many sinners, he means one man's disobedience identified the many as sinners. Also many were made sinner not all, and many will be made righteous not all.

Paul isn't saying that Adam caused the many to be sinners.

What, then, is this insistence that man is constitutionally sinful, that man is a natural born sinner? Unfortunately, the commonly taught Doctrine of Sin Nature "AKA" Original Sin doctrine-- most often results in a plethora of excuses for continuing in sin, while becoming an hardened road-block to any attempt to live godly and apart from sin. This is the express image of the Laodiceans church now seen in these last days. They say "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven", however . "But put ye on the LORD Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof" Romans 13:14.
This false doctrine of Sin Nature robs, those who receive it, making difficult the natural action of the true believers, which is to lovingly obey the Lord (1Timothy 6:15), who "purchased [us] with His own blood" (Acts 20:28). Should not we desire to be different from the lukewarm nature of Laodicea? "15 If ye love Me, keep My Commandments... 21 He that hath My Commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him... 14 Ye are My friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you" (John 14:15, 21; 15:14)



There are many more examples in the text that disprove this hoax of original sin.
http://www.dividingword.net/Original Sin/Over 100 texts.html


Augustine, Luther/Calvin all taught that man was born a lump of sin, he has no free will, God never changes, He is immutable, and Grace only for the elect and God decides, Just wars, and persecution of so-called heretics. The truth is babies are not born in sin, but they are born in Babylon. God does NOT write sins into ANYONE’S heart, His very character forbids it. A common sense biblical outlook is that “God hates sin”. Is He going to punish sin with more sin? No, that’s illogical. This same principle can be carried over to Jesus. Many believe He became sin on the cross. That is a lie from the pit of hell. He became a blameless “sin offering” on our behalf. He didn’t become sin to defeat sin. That would be ludicrous and contradict the whole bible..


What the scriptures teach; Born Innocent, man has a free and independent will, God interacts with man, and can alter His course based upon mans repentance, Grace to Whosoever Will Come, Jesus died for all, Love your enemies, Pay no one evil for evil. Babies are born into Babylon but they are not born in sin.

Willie
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#39
all means all where i come from
so 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God' in your book means Christ has sinned.?


so when the passage says we are accountable for our own wickedness what it really should say is we are held accountable for our wickedness and anyone elses wickedness with the exception of our father? doesent make much sense to me.
try being sensible :)
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#40
so 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God' in your book means Christ has sinned.?

i dont think Jesus sinned. what i think is not part of the equation. the scripture says all.



try being sensible
we are made in the image of Adam, would that not make him our father, why would we be responsible for his sins.