Does original sin exist?

[wwjd_kilden]

Does it matter? (if it exists or not)

We are all sinners
We all live in a fallen world, be it our own sin or other peoples' sin that affect us the most
Only faith in Christ can save

If your house is on fire, you don't spend precious time wondering if it was started by a spark or a flame - you get out.
(What I am trying to say is: It doesn't matter, what matters is our salvation)

 

[sevenseas]

nope

there is nothing new under the sun

it's all been done before

 

[seed_time_harvest]

i agree with Paul."all have sinned" but i think there are sxceptions as Jesus did not. i dont think we are born with sin, the Father says we are not.
i think its a complex issue and attempting to fix it with original sin doctrine doesnt solve it.

We were not born with sin but we were born In sin but sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law.In other words,until the commandment comes,meaning when the person becomes aware that they are doing wrong then sin Is Imputed to them and that's their original sin.

 

[Magenta]

i agree with Paul."all have sinned" but i think there are sxceptions as Jesus did not. i dont think we are born with sin, the Father says we are not.
i think its a complex issue and attempting to fix it with original sin doctrine doesnt solve it.

​Are we born believing in God, or are we born estranged from God? We are born of the flesh which counts for nothing. The flesh is enmity with God. One needs to be born again of the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus died that we might be reconciled back to God through faith in His propitiatory sacrifice on the cross.

 

[Desertsrose]

If original sin exists, then what is it? Is not original sin the ability to discern between good and evil?

Original sin - as in Adam we all die.
Good news - in Christ we're all made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[bestbefore1973]

If original sin exists, then what is it? Is not original sin the ability to discern between good and evil?

Original sin is to think you know what good and evil is.

 

[TraySir]

That One was the One Who overcame Adam's sin. But 'all sinned' is in the aorist, and it is specifically said that the reason that they sinned was not because of their own sins, but because of the imputation of Adam's sin.

It goes on to say, 'many died as a result of one man's trespass,' 'judgment following one trespass brought condemnation', 'one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men', 'by one man's disobedience many were made sinners', and all this is compared with the one man's act of righteousness.

We may not like the doctrine but we cannot honesty deny that Paul clearly stated that one man's sin resulted in condemnation for all, whether by imputation or impartation or both. in the same way as Christ's one act of righteousness availed for us all.

I'm not as smart as you all. So here's my question: if condemnation came to all, and all excludes none, then everyone is condemned at the point of conception.
Does not the bible teach that sin is a matter of the heart, the mind.
I've read the bible. I can find hundreds of examples of men and women sinning. I can find condemnation upon idolaters, haters, liars, homosexuals, false teachers, thieves, gossipers, adulterers, murderers, and all kinds of sins.
I read in the bible where the gospel saves. I read of men and women obeying the gospel. It too is a heart, mind matter. It is saving those who hear it and accept it.
I read in the bible about Noah, he walked with God. Job was a righteous man, stayed away from evil. I read about the faithful in Hebrews 11.
All these things are found throughout the bible from Genesis through Revelation.
In all these things, those who are sinners and those who are saved, are men and women who had the mental faculties, the ability to know, to understand, to comprehend.

A lot has been written about the heart, about faith, about love in many threads. Jesus Himself, pointed His disciples to truth of the matter. Here's an example, honor God with the lips, but not in the heart. There's no honor to God.

Just so plain all throughout scriptures. Looks like it all that gets turned upside down by verses that seem to contradict those examples and the pattern throughout scripture.

But not only the examples, but the numerous explicit statements, such as, The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That verse and others like it are twisted. Their obvious meaning is no longer obvious.

I just can't find, and no one has been able to show in scripture an example of a baby who's ever condemned by God. I can find people, young and old, male and female, but never a baby committing sin and being condemned.

Folks, maybe I'm missing the point. Sorry if I am.

Original sin. That's the first sin. The sin that Eve committed. She understood the words of the devil. She understood the command of God. She was able to be enticed. Adam likewise. They ate, they sinned, they died.

And to cast their guilt, their choice, upon all others, is to go against what is so clearly taught in the bible.

(I don't want to get sidetracked. Patience please.

B doesn't the issue of "original" sin lead into: What happens to babies who die before they are able to talk or to speak? If they are condemned, then they are condemned to what? What is their condemnation? Does God just accept those babies who are not in Christ, who are condemned?)

Thank you.

 

[Jimbone]

i know one that didnt sin.

all have sinned is not the same as being born with sin.

Jesus said the kingdom belonged to those children, this makes little sense if those kids are full of sin.

EZ 18 19-20
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. [SUP]20 [/SUP]The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Ez says im not accountable for the sins of my father. it says i am responsible for my own sins.

Well Adam wasn't Jesus Father. See ALL in Adam have sinned. It's not made up.

 

[valiant]

I have yet to run across any bible passage referring to 'original sin'. In order to sin you must willfully do something that is sinful. I would have to say that 'original sin' is only a concept and not an actual precept stated in the bible.

Paul made clear that we are all under sin in Adam (Rom 5.12-21) even though we have not sinned in the same way as him. In other words Adam's first sin affect us all. It doesn't matter what you call it.

 

[valiant]

I'm not as smart as you all. So here's my question: if condemnation came to all, and all excludes none, then everyone is condemned at the point of conception.
Does not the bible teach that sin is a matter of the heart, the mind.
I've read the bible. I can find hundreds of examples of men and women sinning. I can find condemnation upon idolaters, haters, liars, homosexuals, false teachers, thieves, gossipers, adulterers, murderers, and all kinds of sins.
I read in the bible where the gospel saves. I read of men and women obeying the gospel. It too is a heart, mind matter. It is saving those who hear it and accept it.
I read in the bible about Noah, he walked with God. Job was a righteous man, stayed away from evil. I read about the faithful in Hebrews 11.
All these things are found throughout the bible from Genesis through Revelation.
In all these things, those who are sinners and those who are saved, are men and women who had the mental faculties, the ability to know, to understand, to comprehend.

A lot has been written about the heart, about faith, about love in many threads. Jesus Himself, pointed His disciples to truth of the matter. Here's an example, honor God with the lips, but not in the heart. There's no honor to God.

Just so plain all throughout scriptures. Looks like it all that gets turned upside down by verses that seem to contradict those examples and the pattern throughout scripture.

But not only the examples, but the numerous explicit statements, such as, The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That verse and others like it are twisted. Their obvious meaning is no longer obvious.

I just can't find, and no one has been able to show in scripture an example of a baby who's ever condemned by God. I can find people, young and old, male and female, but never a baby committing sin and being condemned.

Folks, maybe I'm missing the point. Sorry if I am.

Original sin. That's the first sin. The sin that Eve committed. She understood the words of the devil. She understood the command of God. She was able to be enticed. Adam likewise. They ate, they sinned, they died.

And to cast their guilt, their choice, upon all others, is to go against what is so clearly taught in the bible.

(I don't want to get sidetracked. Patience please.

B doesn't the issue of "original" sin lead into: What happens to babies who die before they are able to talk or to speak? If they are condemned, then they are condemned to what? What is their condemnation? Does God just accept those babies who are not in Christ, who are condemned?)

Thank you.

All are condemned in Adam, whether babes, teenagers or adults, (Rom 5.12-2i)

It goes on to say, 'many died as a result of one man's trespass,' 'judgment following one trespass brought condemnation', 'one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men', 'by one man's disobedience many were made sinners', and all this is compared with the one man's act of righteousness.

 

[jaybird88]

We were not born with sin but we were born In sin but sin Is not Imputed where there Is no law.In other words,until the commandment comes,meaning when the person becomes aware that they are doing wrong then sin Is Imputed to them and that's their original sin.

whats the difference between in sin and with sin?

i think the sin is in this world and not us. we have the free will to chose.

 

[Desertsrose]

I'm not as smart as you all. So here's my question: if condemnation came to all, and all excludes none, then everyone is condemned at the point of conception.
Does not the bible teach that sin is a matter of the heart, the mind.
I've read the bible. I can find hundreds of examples of men and women sinning. I can find condemnation upon idolaters, haters, liars, homosexuals, false teachers, thieves, gossipers, adulterers, murderers, and all kinds of sins.
I read in the bible where the gospel saves. I read of men and women obeying the gospel. It too is a heart, mind matter. It is saving those who hear it and accept it.
I read in the bible about Noah, he walked with God. Job was a righteous man, stayed away from evil. I read about the faithful in Hebrews 11.
All these things are found throughout the bible from Genesis through Revelation.
In all these things, those who are sinners and those who are saved, are men and women who had the mental faculties, the ability to know, to understand, to comprehend.

A lot has been written about the heart, about faith, about love in many threads. Jesus Himself, pointed His disciples to truth of the matter. Here's an example, honor God with the lips, but not in the heart. There's no honor to God.

Just so plain all throughout scriptures. Looks like it all that gets turned upside down by verses that seem to contradict those examples and the pattern throughout scripture.

But not only the examples, but the numerous explicit statements, such as, The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That verse and others like it are twisted. Their obvious meaning is no longer obvious.

I just can't find, and no one has been able to show in scripture an example of a baby who's ever condemned by God. I can find people, young and old, male and female, but never a baby committing sin and being condemned.

Folks, maybe I'm missing the point. Sorry if I am.

Original sin. That's the first sin. The sin that Eve committed. She understood the words of the devil. She understood the command of God. She was able to be enticed. Adam likewise. They ate, they sinned, they died.

And to cast their guilt, their choice, upon all others, is to go against what is so clearly taught in the bible.

(I don't want to get sidetracked. Patience please.

B doesn't the issue of "original" sin lead into: What happens to babies who die before they are able to talk or to speak? If they are condemned, then they are condemned to what? What is their condemnation? Does God just accept those babies who are not in Christ, who are condemned?)

Thank you.

Great question, TraySir!

Think of it this way. We who believe and have faith are in Christ. All of us.

So too, all who are in Adam are sinners.

I would recommend reading Romans 5. And cross references too. It might make it more clearer.

Romans 5:19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

 

[willybob]

Its called inherent sin that exists today. Through Adam.

all that you inherited from Adam is your flesh genetics that were cursed and made subject to vanity for the Makers purpose and our own good, nothing else was inherited from Adam.. . However, your soul, which chooses to do good or evil was created by God at conception, and He is incapable of creating sin.

 

[Dino246]

nope

there is nothing new under the sun

it's all been done before

Hey... you stole my answer!

 

[valiant]

all that you inherited from Adam is your flesh genetics that were cursed and made subject to vanity for the Makers purpose and our own good, nothing else was inherited from Adam.. . However, your soul, which chooses to do good or evil was created by God at conception, and He is incapable of creating sin.

This is pure conjecture

 

[jaybird88]

all that you inherited from Adam is your flesh genetics that were cursed and made subject to vanity for the Makers purpose and our own good, nothing else was inherited from Adam.. . However, your soul, which chooses to do good or evil was created by God at conception, and He is incapable of creating sin.

This is pure conjecture

i like his point. our soul comes from the Most High and wouldnt be sinful in nature.

 

[Hungry]

I'm not as smart as you all. So here's my question: if condemnation came to all, and all excludes none, then everyone is condemned at the point of conception.
Does not the bible teach that sin is a matter of the heart, the mind.
I've read the bible. I can find hundreds of examples of men and women sinning. I can find condemnation upon idolaters, haters, liars, homosexuals, false teachers, thieves, gossipers, adulterers, murderers, and all kinds of sins.
I read in the bible where the gospel saves. I read of men and women obeying the gospel. It too is a heart, mind matter. It is saving those who hear it and accept it.
I read in the bible about Noah, he walked with God. Job was a righteous man, stayed away from evil. I read about the faithful in Hebrews 11.
All these things are found throughout the bible from Genesis through Revelation.
In all these things, those who are sinners and those who are saved, are men and women who had the mental faculties, the ability to know, to understand, to comprehend.

A lot has been written about the heart, about faith, about love in many threads. Jesus Himself, pointed His disciples to truth of the matter. Here's an example, honor God with the lips, but not in the heart. There's no honor to God.

Just so plain all throughout scriptures. Looks like it all that gets turned upside down by verses that seem to contradict those examples and the pattern throughout scripture.

But not only the examples, but the numerous explicit statements, such as, The soul that sinneth, it shall die. That verse and others like it are twisted. Their obvious meaning is no longer obvious.

I just can't find, and no one has been able to show in scripture an example of a baby who's ever condemned by God. I can find people, young and old, male and female, but never a baby committing sin and being condemned.

Folks, maybe I'm missing the point. Sorry if I am.

Original sin. That's the first sin. The sin that Eve committed. She understood the words of the devil. She understood the command of God. She was able to be enticed. Adam likewise. They ate, they sinned, they died.

And to cast their guilt, their choice, upon all others, is to go against what is so clearly taught in the bible.

(I don't want to get sidetracked. Patience please.

B doesn't the issue of "original" sin lead into: What happens to babies who die before they are able to talk or to speak? If they are condemned, then they are condemned to what? What is their condemnation? Does God just accept those babies who are not in Christ, who are condemned?)

Thank you.

You might be smarter than most. Asking the right questions leads to wisdom. In my opinion, this is a great question. Everybody's theory is a product of what they have been taught. I find many problems with the common accepted understanding, including the one that you have pointed out. The premise that most ignore is that we are a spirit, in a flesh body. The body has programming that causes it to survive and reproduce, like any animal. The brain just processes information. Based on this information we conduct ourselves, or take action. The brain is capable of accepting information from our senses, and "spiritually" from God. In order to connect, or tune into the Spirit of God, we have to have the right frequency (like a radio receiver). The prophets had this ability in the Old Testament, but angels (messengers) came to deliver important messages to others who did not. Guilt and love adjust this frequency in our bodies (brains). The sacrifices in the OT did nothing but remove the guilt of their sin. I don't want to say "placebo effect" but that seems to best describe it. When Christ died, the Holy Spirit became available for everybody to tune into, kind of like a radio station going world wide instead of just selected people to hear. Christ's sacrifice is all we need for the washing away of all of our sins, thus eliminating guilt. We need only confess to be forgiven, guilt is removed, our spirit once more can vibrate at the frequency.

When we seek to please the flesh, it is never satisfied. It causes us to be envious and spiteful. The carnal desires are just there to instinctively stay alive and perpetuate the species. Civilization is man's design to govern self. We are indoctrinated into a way of life that promotes and demotes based on rules, instead of natural selection. It controls us by creating in us a lust for things and pleasure. THIS IS BEING BORN INTO SIN. Rules cause us to feel guilt when we can't obey them. Hierarchy causes us to be unsatisfied with what we have, and capitalism causes us to want more than we need. Jesus told us not to worry about what we eat and wear. He was getting us in the right state of mind to hear God. We were created to serve God, not man, not self. The only way to satisfy God is to seek Him first. The only way to hear Him is to be in a state of mind that is humbled. This is where there is no fear and no pride. You are able to put others before yourself because you are satisfied with what God has provided. Not because He gave you what you want, what you need. The flesh instead of being satisfied with more, it actually does the opposite. Our brain adapts to what we have and continues to want. In fact the more possess, the less we receive pleasure from it. This is how God created us to be happy in situations with little or much. Man's desire caused the "much" to far exceed intention. That's why there are addictions to drugs and sex (trying to increase pleasure response chemically) and diabetes (eating way too much sugar). Original sin is being born into society, where the whole structure of it is in contrast to God's intent and design. Spiritual birth is tuning into the "God frequency" which is His Spirit, that has more properties than a simple communication feature. This is accomplished by humbling oneself, and loving others, putting their needs above our own.

 

[valiant]

i like his point. our soul comes from the Most High and wouldnt be sinful in nature.

your soul is as sinful as your body. To suggest that God puts a pure soul into a sinful body is blasphemy.

 

[jaybird88]

your soul is as sinful as your body. To suggest that God puts a pure soul into a sinful body is blasphemy.

so our soul, that part that comes from the Most High, is sinful like everything else of this world.
is the Most High sinful? if not , only the part that He gives us, our soul is sinful?

this doctrine seems to cause a lot of conflict with scripture.

 

[willybob]

your soul is as sinful as your body. To suggest that God puts a pure soul into a sinful body is blasphemy.

The flesh is simple sarx, nothing more nothing less...Sin is not a physical thing, nor is it a malady lurking in the sarx....The flesh-coodie idea was all invented by Ambrose/Augustine. A pure Roman Catholic doctrine at its roots...If you were born sinful God couldn't even judge you, it would violate all the principles of justice He stands for in the text..He would even have to go back and apologize to Cain, in that Cain was told he had the ability to rule over "that man of sin" what was seeking to rise up in his members..