Does religion freedom legitimize discrimination?

[Joshua_Generation]

Discrimination is another word for faculty of reason. It is natural and good, and everyone engages in it. This is not a matter of religious freedom; this is a matter of freedom, period. If we are not free to think speak and act sincerely then we are not free-at all. That is slavery, communism. Christians should NOT be forced to do something they do not stand for. But they should always remember love your neighbor so yourself.

Lets look at this through kingdom glasses for a moment.

If I am a United States ambassador to another country and during my first few years there, the President and I make great gains with each other and we are working on ways to increase democracy, tourism, culture and all the things a good ambassador does. I am free to move around my host country and share USA ideals and show what a republic and democracy really is, openly and freely without fear.

Then there is a military coup and the President I worked with is removed from office forcibly and the newly installed President hates the USA does not call me. The new administration changes the culture and relationship and now I am watched, need armed guards to move in the country and instead of enjoying peaceable relations, they are strained, and the new administration hates me and the ideals I stand and wants us out or dead. The CIA is now calling and much of my time is involved in silent intelligence work and assessing threats, etc.

In this example the only thing that changed is the culture around me. I am still an Ambassador sent to represent my country and its ideals and morals. Yet I have to be wise in the culture change, and while I am not tolerant to the new administration, I do not need to go into town squares crying democracy! democracy! republic! republic!. I need to be wise no when to speak, but my world view and the ideas for which I stand do not change. I still need my actions to be inline with my beliefs

This is where Christians are today with the homosexual agenda. Every Christian is called to be an Ambassador of Jesus Christ, we have not changed but the culture around us has. What many people just a few years ago would have said was not natural and rejected have been replaced with tolerance and attacks of anything but tolerance.

So as an ambassador what should we do?

Your comment:

Christians should NOT be forced to do something they do not stand for. But they should always remember love your neighbor so yourself.

Is refusing to let a gay couple buy coffee from your christian ran coffee shop really acting in love?
Perfect God love says serve them a cup of Java. Matthew 25.31-40 comes to mind here.

Church is a different story, a called Pastor will, in love, let those engaging in this lifestyle, that come to his church understand they cannot continue to engage in this lifestyle.

My wife and I have been used to minister to many Gay and Lesbians. We find wihtout controversy that when the HOly Spirit reaches them it is not through harsh judgements, or conviction of their lifestyle,. We keep hearing over and over that the goodness and love of God compelled them to leave the lifestyle. Which completely is backed up by Romans 2.4.

Because God ahs called us to deliver this people group, we have studied the lifestyle. The actual percentage of those in the lifestyle that are in it for perversion/lust fulfillment is actually much smaller than the church thinks.

Most we have been led to minister with deplore and feel debased in the lifestyle. For women, many were raped and sexaully abused by men in their early years, then forced to be sex trafficked, where a woman in the introduced them to lesbian sex. This is usually fueled by strong addiction to drugs, etc.

For men, they were raped and sodomized by men as a kid and the progression is similar to the women.

The bottom line is that most engaged in this lifestyle have been bound for years by lack of true love, and bound by spirits of rejection, insecurity and fear.

God's grace is so awesome, when we see his grace come into their lives, it is a life changer.

Jesus showed us that the kingdom is advanced by the love of God that is placed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

I am not tolerant one bit to the lifestyle, it is a SIN, but we will reach them through love, not refusing them service.

Not everyone will agree with me here.

Hebrew 13.1-2 says:
13 Let love of the brethren continue. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.

Spare me the comments that say God would not send an angel as a gay man or lesbian. The verse above is one of the most forgotten in the Bible.

A final word, when Jesus says depart from me, because I never knew you, doe snot mean he did not know you. The Bible Tell's us that Jesus knew us from the foundation of the world. What Jesus is saying here is, you did all those things, yet I do not approve of you.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Just remember, the Gospel IS offensive -- especially to those caught up in sinful lifestyles. Just by being an authentic Christian, we become offensive to the world because our lifestyle makes the world's look bad, and they know it. And they don't like it.

So show me where Jesus was offensive to the sinner?

He was offensive to religious people not the sinner. This is something the church has always forgotten.

When they brough in the woman who committed Adultery Jesus did not condemn her, yet the church did

 

[Joshua_Generation]

The truth of God hurts.

It will always be offensive. Yes we should love others, But as a parent has to give a child tough love, should we not do the same?

Holding back tough love because your afraid you may offend someone is not love at all is it?

Show me where Jesus had tough love for anyone but the scribes/ pharisee and religious of his day?

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Excellent post, Mary. You are wise beyond your years.

You are especially right in condemning, as I believe you are, the "politically correct" attitude of not saying or even thinking anything negative about anyone else. Not that insults or denigration are right or proper, but of course they carry it far beyond that, insisting we not think someone to be wrong, misguided, or biased.

Of course, they are free to think all those things about Christian thought and philosophy, which is what makes political correctness a huge farce, though the "politically correct" totally fail to recognize it as such.

When Christians in the USA stop thinking persecution is political correctness, then maybe we will see revival here.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

When Christians in the USA stop thinking persecution is political correctness, then maybe we will see revival here.

I don't think political correctness is persecution. I think it is annoyance.

Persecution is coming, and I mean Bible-burning, worship-banning, prayer-outlawing, church-shutting-downing, Christian-arresting persecution. And if we haven't seen revival yet, we won't see it 'til after the Rapture, which means we ourselves, the present-day believers, won't see it all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Show me where Jesus had tough love for anyone but the scribes/ pharisee and religious of his day?

hmm, did he not tell peter he would deny him three times? Did he not tell his disciples they were wrong when they were not watching and praying? when they should have been praying, did he not tell the woman at the well she was married many times (an adulter) I can go further if you want.

 

[JaumeJ]

I am glad someone else sees this. When I have asked what does Jesus Christ have to do with Herod? It has fallen on deaf ears.

When Christians in the USA stop thinking persecution is political correctness, then maybe we will see revival here.

 

[atwhatcost]

Discrimination is another word for faculty of reason. It is natural and good, and everyone engages in it. This is not a matter of religious freedom; this is a matter of freedom, period. If we are not free to think speak and act sincerely then we are not free-at all. That is slavery, communism. Christians should NOT be forced to do something they do not stand for. But they should always remember love your neighbor so yourself.

How does that work for you vice versa? The mayor of Houston is opposed to our religion. Her religion is LGBT. She wanted our religious professionals (pastors) to send in their sermons a few days before giving them, so she could approve them. (As in, "absolutely nothing against her religion.") Is that fair for her to discriminate like that? (She had to reneg on that once it got out to the press, but it is only time before it becomes a law.)

Is it fair if your supermarket is owned by someone who doesn't like your religion, so they won't let you shop there?

Is it fair that Disney has LBGT days? For that matter, is it fair that our flower show (I live in Philly, so it's one of the biggest in the world) has an LBGT night, but won't set side a night for disabled people? (And, I've asked them to be more disabled friendly, because people have a tendency to ignore wheelchaired people all together, so step right in front of them and then stop, or block their views.)

Personally, I think all of that's fair, not because it is truly fair, but because of the history of our people. Our people have always been hated. Egypt enslaved them. The people of the land God promised slayed them. The Romans killed us wholesale to the tune of 100,000 a day for years. The Nazis killed as many Christians as Jews. The Middle East kills Christians routinely. Kenya kills Christian students.

Can we we discriminate on others? Sure we can, and we should at times. Just as long as we're aware of the price we may one day be asked to pay. After all, it's still a smaller price than Christ paid for us.

There are men, right now, going to seminary. When they graduate, they will go back to their countries to preach the Good News. From the moment they land back in that country, they have an expiration date. They will be killed for what they preach within one hour to two years. All that, and our biggest worry is if a baker can say no to making a cake for a homosexual couple. How good our lives are that we can worry about making a wedding cake or seeing a flower exhibit. Sometimes I wonder what that family in the Coliseum waiting for the lions to get hungry again before eating them next would think of us.

 

[atwhatcost]

I don't think political correctness is persecution. I think it is annoyance.

Persecution is coming, and I mean Bible-burning, worship-banning, prayer-outlawing, church-shutting-downing, Christian-arresting persecution. And if we haven't seen revival yet, we won't see it 'til after the Rapture, which means we ourselves, the present-day believers, won't see it all.

It must be nice to think evil will never touch you because the rapture is coming. I have to ask, exactly why is anyone burning Bibles if the people toting them are gone? I wouldn't waste time burning all the Nazi flags if I knew all the Nazis were gone. The symbol means nothing if that which is symbolized is gone.

This present-day believer may well be gone before America falls, but that really has nothing to do with the country falling or God returning. He's already here, and he won't come collecting until the last of his whosoever-will-be-saved is saved. God isn't for America. He's for his people. I'll be gone, because I'm guessing I only have 20-30 years to go, tops.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

hmm, did he not tell peter he would deny him three times? Did he not tell his disciples they were wrong when they were not watching and praying? when they should have been praying, did he not tell the woman at the well she was married many times (an adulter) I can go further if you want.

EG You post great stuff bro, I am not coming after you on this, but in all fairness 2 of your 3 examples are with believers>

Ad far as the woman at the well:
Did Jesus push to have a religious freedom law enacted that would allow the well owners from letting the women at the well access to water because she was a Samaritan?

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I don't think political correctness is persecution. I think it is annoyance.

Persecution is coming, and I mean Bible-burning, worship-banning, prayer-outlawing, church-shutting-downing, Christian-arresting persecution. And if we haven't seen revival yet, we won't see it 'til after the Rapture, which means we ourselves, the present-day believers, won't see it all.

I think you better recheck yourself and stop thinking the rapture is going to exclude you from any kind of pretrib persecution or evil.

I have read so many posts where folks use Noah and the ark and the story of Lot to support pretrib rapture and that is all well and good.

However I think you and all pretrib believing folks need to remember that Noah worked on the ark for 500 years during the absolute evil that forced God's hand of judgement. Moses had to be in Egypt to start deliverance. Lot was in the middle of the mess and pure evil that had been brewing for decades before being pulled out. Jonah was in the whale. Daniel's 3 friends were actually put into the furnace. Daniel was in the Lion's Den. David had to run to meet Goliath. Jehu went into Jezebel's house, when he kicked her out a window. Are you getting the theme here?

I guess its better to be apathetic and indifferent and believe you will be spared any form of pretrib persecution/evil.

Tthe crazy thing is only Christians in the USA believe this way an not any other Christians in the world.

The great falling away and love growing cold among Christians has to be started by something and that something is having to endure and watching evil manifesting like in the days of Noah and Lot and losing faith that he will return again.

Which is why Jesus said in Luke 18: I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find [SUP][e][/SUP]faith on the earth?”

 

[Joshua_Generation]

How does that work for you vice versa? The mayor of Houston is opposed to our religion. Her religion is LGBT. She wanted our religious professionals (pastors) to send in their sermons a few days before giving them, so she could approve them. (As in, "absolutely nothing against her religion.") Is that fair for her to discriminate like that? (She had to reneg on that once it got out to the press, but it is only time before it becomes a law.)

Is it fair if your supermarket is owned by someone who doesn't like your religion, so they won't let you shop there?

Is it fair that Disney has LBGT days? For that matter, is it fair that our flower show (I live in Philly, so it's one of the biggest in the world) has an LBGT night, but won't set side a night for disabled people? (And, I've asked them to be more disabled friendly, because people have a tendency to ignore wheelchaired people all together, so step right in front of them and then stop, or block their views.)

Personally, I think all of that's fair, not because it is truly fair, but because of the history of our people. Our people have always been hated. Egypt enslaved them. The people of the land God promised slayed them. The Romans killed us wholesale to the tune of 100,000 a day for years. The Nazis killed as many Christians as Jews. The Middle East kills Christians routinely. Kenya kills Christian students.

Can we we discriminate on others? Sure we can, and we should at times. Just as long as we're aware of the price we may one day be asked to pay. After all, it's still a smaller price than Christ paid for us.

There are men, right now, going to seminary. When they graduate, they will go back to their countries to preach the Good News. From the moment they land back in that country, they have an expiration date. They will be killed for what they preach within one hour to two years. All that, and our biggest worry is if a baker can say no to making a cake for a homosexual couple. How good our lives are that we can worry about making a wedding cake or seeing a flower exhibit. Sometimes I wonder what that family in the Coliseum waiting for the lions to get hungry again before eating them next would think of us.

AMEN PREACH IT SISTER!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG You post great stuff bro, I am not coming after you on this, but in all fairness 2 of your 3 examples are with believers>

Ad far as the woman at the well:
Did Jesus push to have a religious freedom law enacted that would allow the well owners from letting the women at the well access to water because she was a Samaritan?

I know your not.

Jesus gives tough love to believers also. And the woman at the well became a believer because of his tough love.

He gives tough love to me all the time. And I praise him for it, or I would be in trouble

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I know your not.

Jesus gives tough love to believers also. And the woman at the well became a believer because of his tough love.

He gives tough love to me all the time. And I praise him for it, or I would be in trouble

I don't see that the was giving the women at the well tough love. Jesus was given a fact, in the mind of God, about her past, which brought her to her to repentance. Just like Paul says in 1 Cor 14.24-25.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [SUP][l][/SUP]ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; [SUP]25 [/SUP]the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

And lets also remember that the Bible says in 1 Cor 14.3 that those who prophesy to men, speak words of edification, exhortation and comfort. So I do not see that Jesus was roughing her up wiht tough love, he was prophesying words of edification, exhortation and comfort., which convicted the woman and she fell on her face and worshiped him.

Just as Paul outlined in 1 Cor 14.3, 24-25.

One of my Pastors once told me years ago, as I was training for the ministry, that the greatest act of Love I could give another person was prophesying words of edification, exhortation and comfort to them. This is the truth of the word.

I remember God put us in the life of a 20-something Lesbian, as we began to speak and minister to her, the Holy Ghost spoke to me and said, she was raped continually as a young girl and teenager by her aunt and her aunts different lesbian friends and they threatened to kill her if she ever told her Mom. Her guilt, shame and fear have her bound and she believes nobody will ever love her.

As we continued to minister to her, and at the right time I told her that she could be free from the guilt, shame and fear instilled into her by a family member. She looked a me and my wife with tears in her eyes and asked how I knew that, and I told her the perfect love of God casts out fear. The yoke was destroyed! She came to Jesus that night and has been married to her husband for 8 years and has 4 beautiful children and a ministry reaching lesbians who have been introduced to the lifestyle through abuse.

Luke 12.12 says:[SUP]
12 [/SUP]for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

This is how people are delivered and saved and not through some stupid law that gives a "christian" the right to refuse service because they do not believe as they do.

Naw EG, Jesus was not using tough love, he was using love.

 

[Delivery]

Discrimination is another word for faculty of reason. It is natural and good, and everyone engages in it. This is not a matter of religious freedom; this is a matter of freedom, period. If we are not free to think speak and act sincerely then we are not free-at all. That is slavery, communism. Christians should NOT be forced to do something they do not stand for. But they should always remember love your neighbor so yourself.

Yes. The fact of the matter is, everybody is prejudiced, everybody hates, everybody has bias for or against something. Discrimination is inherent in everybody. Hate is a feeling, everybody likes some things and people and everybody hates some things. So the real question is what do you discriminate against? Where does your personal bias lie? God hates. Jesus discriminated. But what did they discriminate against? Evil, of course.

[SUP]10[/SUP] Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
We who love the Lord are supposed to hate evil. Does that make us hatemongers? In the eyes of the wicked we might be the hatemongers because the wicked don't like it when we preach against sin. As Jesus said,

[SUP]7[/SUP] The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

The world hated Jesus because He preached against the sins of the world in order to get them to repent and be saved. People have to realize they are sinners before they will repent of their sins and get saved. Nowadays He would be called a hatemonger, just like christians who preach against sin are called hatemongers. But who is the real hatemonger?

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.

I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the LORD.

Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Ps 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Does this mean the bible preaches hate? No, this means that it is love to hate if your hate is directed toward evil. So the real question is, what is your definition of evil? It is good to hate if your hatred is directed toward evil.

Jesus said," Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Jesus lovingly gave His life to save us from our sins. And since we know this and we want other people to know Jesus and be able to go to heaven, then the loving thing would be to tell them, right? It is loving to say to somebody that they need to receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior or they're going to go to hell. But the real hatemongers who don't want to have to repent of their sins call Christians the hatemongers for telling them that.

It's like somebody once said, "The devil and me, we don't agree, I hate him and he hates me.'

[SUP]20[/SUP] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

The evil hate mongering wicked hate the Light of the world, Jesus, because they don't want the light to expose them for the evil people they actually are instead of the righteous people they think they are.

It's good to discriminate against evil and to preach the Love of Jesus which exposes the world for it's evilness so that people will repent of their sins and receive God's forgiveness for their sins by believing in Jesus. Believing in Jesus is love. Rejecting Jesus is hate.

 

[crossnote]

Wedding cakes and photos may seem a small matter when it comes to persecution but the point is what is at stake?
Freedom of conscience to do as one is convicted by God!
The martyr about to be thrown to the lions has taken his/her stand as well as the Christian baker. Those who won't take their stand as a baker probably won't take their stand before the lions either. Selah

 

[jn4mw]

Wedding cakes and photos may seem a small matter when it comes to persecution but the point is what is at stake?
Freedom of conscience to do as one is convicted by God!
The martyr about to be thrown to the lions has taken his/her stand as well as the Christian baker. Those who won't take their stand as a baker probably won't take their stand before the lions either. Selah

I understand the thought process behind thinking christians should be able to refuse service because they feel led by God. But have you really considered the implications of this type of system being put into place, what it would turn this country into. So now we have people who are gay or who support gays trying to refuse service to christians. I think that this is a slippery slope and that it promotes hatred of those we don't understand or agree with. I believe the only way to bring a non-believer to christ is not to condemn them but to show them the love of God. Starting a system which, regardless of actual feelings, promotes the feeling of hatred will only make christians more hypocritical in the eyes of the world. No, it does not matter what the world thinks of us but we are called to bring others to God and if we alienate people by lacking love and grace, I see us making that goal more difficult.

If we start something like this we are no better than those who persecute and judge us. Why would anyone listen to a group like that. We criticize for being looked poorly at and treated poorly then we turn around and treat others the same way.

Jesus called sinners to him, his disciples were sinners. He did not ban them from his presence because they were unworthy. He had compassion and with love turned them to him. Hate and discrimination (in this form) will only further Satan's goal.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

I understand the thought process behind thinking christians should be able to refuse service because they feel led by God. But have you really considered the implications of this type of system being put into place, what it would turn this country into. So now we have people who are gay or who support gays trying to refuse service to christians. I think that this is a slippery slope and that it promotes hatred of those we don't understand or agree with. I believe the only way to bring a non-believer to christ is not to condemn them but to show them the love of God. Starting a system which, regardless of actual feelings, promotes the feeling of hatred will only make christians more hypocritical in the eyes of the world. No, it does not matter what the world thinks of us but we are called to bring others to God and if we alienate people by lacking love and grace, I see us making that goal more difficult.

If we start something like this we are no better than those who persecute and judge us. Why would anyone listen to a group like that. We criticize for being looked poorly at and treated poorly then we turn around and treat others the same way.

Jesus called sinners to him, his disciples were sinners. He did not ban them from his presence because they were unworthy. He had compassion and with love turned them to him. Hate and discrimination (in this form) will only further Satan's goal.

Christians in the USA always apply natural resolutions to supernatural problems and the result is stupid laws like we are witnessing in Indiana.

I also think Christians in the USA have resorted to who can shout the loudest.

Jesus called you to love the sinner and be as wise as a serpent and innocent as doves.

I translate that to be: Be loving and warm and not weird or stupid.

Sadly, I see unloving, cold , weird and stupid Christians everywhere.

The Love walk should be preached in every church for 3 months.

 

[atwhatcost]

Wedding cakes and photos may seem a small matter when it comes to persecution but the point is what is at stake?
Freedom of conscience to do as one is convicted by God!
The martyr about to be thrown to the lions has taken his/her stand as well as the Christian baker. Those who won't take their stand as a baker probably won't take their stand before the lions either. Selah

It is impossible to take freedom of consciousness away. That is the point. God's will be done, even if it cost us our lives. Considering I am a coward by nature, that's one tall order, but I have seen him work in me anyway He's gotten to me over the years. Used to be I'd rather travel by fish stomach than boat. Now, at least, I'm trying for the boat. Kind of useless to tell God I won't go where he wills me to go, when he's going to get me there anyway. At least the boat is more comfortable. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

I understand the thought process behind thinking christians should be able to refuse service because they feel led by God. But have you really considered the implications of this type of system being put into place, what it would turn this country into. So now we have people who are gay or who support gays trying to refuse service to christians. I think that this is a slippery slope and that it promotes hatred of those we don't understand or agree with. I believe the only way to bring a non-believer to christ is not to condemn them but to show them the love of God. Starting a system which, regardless of actual feelings, promotes the feeling of hatred will only make christians more hypocritical in the eyes of the world. No, it does not matter what the world thinks of us but we are called to bring others to God and if we alienate people by lacking love and grace, I see us making that goal more difficult.

If we start something like this we are no better than those who persecute and judge us. Why would anyone listen to a group like that. We criticize for being looked poorly at and treated poorly then we turn around and treat others the same way.

Jesus called sinners to him, his disciples were sinners. He did not ban them from his presence because they were unworthy. He had compassion and with love turned them to him. Hate and discrimination (in this form) will only further Satan's goal.

I have worked side by side with atheists, God-haters, and other types of people who truly believed I was/am nuts for believing God. Many became friends despite that. When I was a business owner, I didn't even ask customers religious beliefs before serving them. There was no purpose.

BUT, as a business owner, there was a line in the sand. I did secretarial services as one aspect of my business. I helped a guy write down his rant on life, knowing I didn't agree with a word he wanted. I would not have helped him if those words were words of hate to another to be given to that person/group. That was my line in the sand.

My brother married the woman he cheated with. There was no more chance of talking him out of that than a chance of talking him out of divorcing his wife. I knew the woman would become my sister-in-law. She is part of my family with love; however, I would not go to their wedding.

There is a line in the sand. There is a difference between hate and can't-do-it that often revolves around the God we serve. (I also can't-do-it when it comes to touching insects too, but that's a different kind of can't-do-it. lol) If Jesus went to a homosexual wedding, the wedding wouldn't have happened. The couple would have been saved instead. We don't get that kind of power, so there is something to say for lines in the sand.