Does saved by grace, not under law cancel the 119th Psalm?
- Thread starter Blik
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I posted to you because you appear to be (deserved or not) the fuel to this fire.........and, if you simply step up and decide to tone it down, then, possibly, there MIGHT be some good come from the discussions.
This Forum DOES NOT NEED more of this............seriously, it has PLENTY ENOUGH!
I should know, because I am generally in about half of the stuff that goes on.
Comes a time when the Spirit says..........GIVE IT A REST.
This Forum DOES NOT NEED more of this............seriously, it has PLENTY ENOUGH!
I should know, because I am generally in about half of the stuff that goes on.
Comes a time when the Spirit says..........GIVE IT A REST.
That is incorrect. Do you recall what Jesus said about those who sit in "Moses' Seat" (meaning those who teach the Law of Moses)?
MATTHEW 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
What the Lord was saying is that whenever the scribes and Pharisees taught from the Torah itself, it was binding on every Jew at that time. Therefore All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do.
At the same times, since these religious leaders and teachers were also hypocrites, the people were commanded not to follow their example of hypocrisy.
Also, when Christ taught the Sermon on the Mount, He elevated what was in the Law to the highest spiritual level, and also taught that He had not come to destroy the Law but to fulfil it.
MATTHEW 23
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
What the Lord was saying is that whenever the scribes and Pharisees taught from the Torah itself, it was binding on every Jew at that time. Therefore All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do.
At the same times, since these religious leaders and teachers were also hypocrites, the people were commanded not to follow their example of hypocrisy.
Also, when Christ taught the Sermon on the Mount, He elevated what was in the Law to the highest spiritual level, and also taught that He had not come to destroy the Law but to fulfil it.
We don't agree on this at all. Or only partially.
I'll just address one thing.
You left out "or the Prophets" in your last point.
Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
What is the significance of "or the Prophets" ?
Are you familiar with Jesus' explanation of Matt.5:17 that he gave after his resurrection? See below.
Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
I'll just address one thing.
You left out "or the Prophets" in your last point.
Jesus did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
What is the significance of "or the Prophets" ?
Are you familiar with Jesus' explanation of Matt.5:17 that he gave after his resurrection? See below.
Luke 24:44
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
P
Jesus fulfilled the law not for himself but for us.....he took our stripes, (punishment) he died so we may live.
Jesus left us with 2 commandments if you are referring to this as the law of Christ. We are to love God with all that we have and all that we are and to love our neighbor as our selves.
These are 2 laws Jesus cannot do for us. He cannot love God for us nor can he love our neighbors for us. We are called to do that.
These 2 laws are the greatest and fulfills all the law.
Jesus left us with 2 commandments if you are referring to this as the law of Christ. We are to love God with all that we have and all that we are and to love our neighbor as our selves.
These are 2 laws Jesus cannot do for us. He cannot love God for us nor can he love our neighbors for us. We are called to do that.
These 2 laws are the greatest and fulfills all the law.
-
1
- Show all
You are full of willful obstinance. Maybe, since you chose to join a Christian forum, you could show a little humility when you encounter those who know more than you do about the scriptures.
Then, gleaning that education, you can help others understand the scriptures as you move forward in the spirit of open mindedness and open heart and humility. Seeking to learn what the words of God are actually telling us. Rather than telling us you don't need to be told you're wrong because you know what you, you, are talking about.
You don't.
Arrogance doesn't change that. It just makes you offensive to the opportunity afforded you to educate yourself.
See, if we let ourselves be intimidated by your attitude and said to ourselves, well, it is only "charitable" to let Sketch think they're right about this or that scripture...... We'd be doing you a disservice in that you'd continue to be unaware of what God is actually saying to you.
More importantly, given your attitude, we would be irresponsible to those who may be lurking here thinking to understand a thread's topic and the subsequent scriptures that follow post for post.
That's not what God would want.
Then, gleaning that education, you can help others understand the scriptures as you move forward in the spirit of open mindedness and open heart and humility. Seeking to learn what the words of God are actually telling us. Rather than telling us you don't need to be told you're wrong because you know what you, you, are talking about.
You don't.
Arrogance doesn't change that. It just makes you offensive to the opportunity afforded you to educate yourself.
See, if we let ourselves be intimidated by your attitude and said to ourselves, well, it is only "charitable" to let Sketch think they're right about this or that scripture...... We'd be doing you a disservice in that you'd continue to be unaware of what God is actually saying to you.
More importantly, given your attitude, we would be irresponsible to those who may be lurking here thinking to understand a thread's topic and the subsequent scriptures that follow post for post.
That's not what God would want.
Why would you apologize for disagreeing with someone's wrong thinking or behavior here?
Thumbs down is simply saying, I disagree.
It's not an insult. How are people who don't know what they're insisting is true is not so going to learn if we who do know what is correct don't care enough about them to correct them?
You're being told by someone here they don't like to be told they're wrong!
Think about that and what inspires that attitude.
Thumbs down is simply saying, I disagree.
It's not an insult. How are people who don't know what they're insisting is true is not so going to learn if we who do know what is correct don't care enough about them to correct them?
You're being told by someone here they don't like to be told they're wrong!
Think about that and what inspires that attitude.
It makes sense now that you'd apologize. That's a great testimony. I've never encountered anyone who said that the Lord Jesus ACTUALLY broke the sabbath and therefore sinned.
If that were true then the Lord would be a hypocrite, God forbid, due to Matthew 5:48.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
How could the Lord tell people to do what He Himself could not? That is what a hypocrite does.
Matthew 15:7-8
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
How can someone who is a hypocrite talk badly about other hypocrites? Well, He couldn't.
1 Peter 1:18-19
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Couldn't be called the lamb without blemish or spot if He ACTUALLY broke the sabbath. The Lord only broke the Jews carnal view of what the sabbath was. Not EVER what the actual Spiritual Sabbath was.
If that were true then the Lord would be a hypocrite, God forbid, due to Matthew 5:48.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
How could the Lord tell people to do what He Himself could not? That is what a hypocrite does.
Matthew 15:7-8
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
How can someone who is a hypocrite talk badly about other hypocrites? Well, He couldn't.
1 Peter 1:18-19
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Couldn't be called the lamb without blemish or spot if He ACTUALLY broke the sabbath. The Lord only broke the Jews carnal view of what the sabbath was. Not EVER what the actual Spiritual Sabbath was.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
[/QUOTE] Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
This is scripture. If you are a Christian its in your bible. Be a Christian. Don't go back to the Old Jewish way that is the yoke of bondage.
You want to be pleasing to God? You want to be clean and Righteous before God? You can only do that by faith in Christ. No other way.[/QUOTE]
"Old Jewish way that is the yoke of bondage" that you speak of refers to Judaism - surely not God's SPIRITUAL Law of love as defined by the 10 Commandments.
Judaism (both modern Judaism and the Judaism practiced by the Pharisees and scribes of Christ’s day) is a corruption of both God’s law and the teachings of the Old Testament. It is a corruption of God’s way of life. One such corruption is that Judaism adopted a system of pagan penance. Another major corruption came about after the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, when the Jewish religious leaders came to deeply realize that God had sent the Israelites into captivity due to their flagrant breaking of God’s laws. The realization of this fact, led the current religious leaders into the misguided solution of trying to “insulate and protect” the law of God---by building a “fence” around the actual law---so that it would never be broken again. In their misguided zeal, they added more than 600 man-made laws, commandments, rules, regulations and oral law to the laws of God (and, in particular, to the Law of Moses).
Among these more than 600 “fence laws” were some 65 do’s and don’ts concerning Sabbath keeping. When the entire compilation of the law of Judaism was made in the 3rd century A.D. (in a book called the Misnah) this book was 800 pages long! What’s more, the Talmud (an authoritative commentary on the law) came to 12 printed volumes!
BELIEF - FAITH - LAW - OBEDIENCE - JUSTIFICATION - GRACE - REPENTANCE
It all fits together! We cannot discuss one without discussing the others and expect to understand.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”
Many people sincerely believe that all one has to do is “believe on Jesus” to be saved. Jesus says this to those who believe but do not do the things He says:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven...’” (Matthew 7:21–23).
“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)?
“But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
The law does not justify us. It teaches us the reason we need justification. It teaches us what sin is (1 John 3:4). Once we have sinned by breaking that law, it is through faith in the sacrifice of Christ that justification—forgiveness of past sins—takes place. The law defines sin. Faith in Christ’s sacrifice brings about justification.
This is summarized in Galatians 2:15–18: “We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Paul also said, “for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified” (by Christ) (Romans 2:13). We are justified to God by Christ having paid the penalty for our past sins, but the Bible teaches that we should become diligent in keeping the commandments and (strive to) sin no more.
(James 2:19) James says “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” . “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?” (v. 20). Then, using the example of Abraham offering up his son Isaac, he says: “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (v. 22).
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?” (Hebrews 3:14–18). Then Paul sums up this passage by saying: “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief” (v. 19). He connects Belief with Obedience
Hebrews 11 is known as the “faith chapter” because it records example after example of men and women who exercised faith in the face of trials and stress. “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him” (v. 6).
aul never contradicted Jesus by teaching commandment breaking.
Paul, in a letter to uncircumcised Gentile Christians said, "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcised is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (1 Corinthians 7:19). Even the Apostle to the Gentiles taught commandment keeping!
If we truly love God, we will begin keeping His commandments, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).
God's Grace
Grace is a “gift from God.” But, is this grace a permanent state, such that “once saved, always saved”?
An often-misunderstood verse in Scripture. Ephesians 2:8 tells us, “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (KJV). The phrase “are ye saved” uses a present-progressive verb. A “present-progressive” verb describes an ongoing action. Any good Bible concordance will verify that the KJV correctly renders the tense of the original Greek verb. The most precise translation of Ephesians 2:8,we “are being” saved through faith.
To sum up, Christians have been saved from our past sins by the blood of Christ (justification); we are now “being saved” through faith (Matthew 24:13), and we “shall be saved by His life” (Romans 5:10).
Repentance
Many preach and teach - "Just believe, and you will be saved!" BUT God tells us to repent of sin and be baptized - is THAT "salvation by works"?
What is repentance? The Greek word translated "repent" is metanoeo, which means to "think differently." Repent of what? SIN - But what is sin? "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4). The King James Version puts it plainly—"sin is the transgression of the law."
When we repent of sin, we are deeply sorry for having transgressed God's law. (Romans 8:7). After repentance, we want to be in harmony with God's law of love—the Ten Commandments. Repentance brings a deep change in our thinking, and a commitment to live by every word of God. As Jesus said: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God" (Luke 4:4).
On the day of Pentecost in 31ad, in the first inspired sermon of the New Testament Church,
the Apostle Peter spoke in Jerusalem to several thousand people, after which they became convicted for their part in killing the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Thousands asked Peter and the other Apostles: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"(Acts 2:37).
Here was Peter's opportunity to tell them that they did not need to do anything more than "believe." Did he tell them so? No! What did he actually say? "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 2:38). Peter proclaimed wonderful news—that they could be forgiven of their sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For this to occur, he insisted on two points—that they repent (of breaking God's Spiritual Law - The 10 Commandments), and that they be baptized.
A Defense Of God's Spiritual Law
"Christians Are Required to Keep God's Law!"
https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/85fa28aa-ec90-48bc-a7af-7d84aafb3da7
Videos
"Did Paul Do Away With the Law?"
Will You Follow Christ or Paul?
Who Says?
The effects of God's Law "done away with" in society.
BILLIONS WEREN’T EXPECTING THIS AFTER DEATH
What happens to faithful, repentant Christians? What happens to those who lived bad lives during this life? What happens to those who Don't keep God's law?
This is scripture. If you are a Christian its in your bible. Be a Christian. Don't go back to the Old Jewish way that is the yoke of bondage.
You want to be pleasing to God? You want to be clean and Righteous before God? You can only do that by faith in Christ. No other way.[/QUOTE]
"Old Jewish way that is the yoke of bondage" that you speak of refers to Judaism - surely not God's SPIRITUAL Law of love as defined by the 10 Commandments.
Judaism (both modern Judaism and the Judaism practiced by the Pharisees and scribes of Christ’s day) is a corruption of both God’s law and the teachings of the Old Testament. It is a corruption of God’s way of life. One such corruption is that Judaism adopted a system of pagan penance. Another major corruption came about after the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, when the Jewish religious leaders came to deeply realize that God had sent the Israelites into captivity due to their flagrant breaking of God’s laws. The realization of this fact, led the current religious leaders into the misguided solution of trying to “insulate and protect” the law of God---by building a “fence” around the actual law---so that it would never be broken again. In their misguided zeal, they added more than 600 man-made laws, commandments, rules, regulations and oral law to the laws of God (and, in particular, to the Law of Moses).
Among these more than 600 “fence laws” were some 65 do’s and don’ts concerning Sabbath keeping. When the entire compilation of the law of Judaism was made in the 3rd century A.D. (in a book called the Misnah) this book was 800 pages long! What’s more, the Talmud (an authoritative commentary on the law) came to 12 printed volumes!
BELIEF - FAITH - LAW - OBEDIENCE - JUSTIFICATION - GRACE - REPENTANCE
It all fits together! We cannot discuss one without discussing the others and expect to understand.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”
Many people sincerely believe that all one has to do is “believe on Jesus” to be saved. Jesus says this to those who believe but do not do the things He says:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven...’” (Matthew 7:21–23).
“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)?
“But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
The law does not justify us. It teaches us the reason we need justification. It teaches us what sin is (1 John 3:4). Once we have sinned by breaking that law, it is through faith in the sacrifice of Christ that justification—forgiveness of past sins—takes place. The law defines sin. Faith in Christ’s sacrifice brings about justification.
This is summarized in Galatians 2:15–18: “We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
Paul also said, “for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified” (by Christ) (Romans 2:13). We are justified to God by Christ having paid the penalty for our past sins, but the Bible teaches that we should become diligent in keeping the commandments and (strive to) sin no more.
(James 2:19) James says “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!” . “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?” (v. 20). Then, using the example of Abraham offering up his son Isaac, he says: “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (v. 22).
And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?” (Hebrews 3:14–18). Then Paul sums up this passage by saying: “So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief” (v. 19). He connects Belief with Obedience
Hebrews 11 is known as the “faith chapter” because it records example after example of men and women who exercised faith in the face of trials and stress. “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek Him” (v. 6).
aul never contradicted Jesus by teaching commandment breaking.
Paul, in a letter to uncircumcised Gentile Christians said, "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcised is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters" (1 Corinthians 7:19). Even the Apostle to the Gentiles taught commandment keeping!
If we truly love God, we will begin keeping His commandments, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).
God's Grace
Grace is a “gift from God.” But, is this grace a permanent state, such that “once saved, always saved”?
An often-misunderstood verse in Scripture. Ephesians 2:8 tells us, “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (KJV). The phrase “are ye saved” uses a present-progressive verb. A “present-progressive” verb describes an ongoing action. Any good Bible concordance will verify that the KJV correctly renders the tense of the original Greek verb. The most precise translation of Ephesians 2:8,we “are being” saved through faith.
To sum up, Christians have been saved from our past sins by the blood of Christ (justification); we are now “being saved” through faith (Matthew 24:13), and we “shall be saved by His life” (Romans 5:10).
Repentance
Many preach and teach - "Just believe, and you will be saved!" BUT God tells us to repent of sin and be baptized - is THAT "salvation by works"?
What is repentance? The Greek word translated "repent" is metanoeo, which means to "think differently." Repent of what? SIN - But what is sin? "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4). The King James Version puts it plainly—"sin is the transgression of the law."
When we repent of sin, we are deeply sorry for having transgressed God's law. (Romans 8:7). After repentance, we want to be in harmony with God's law of love—the Ten Commandments. Repentance brings a deep change in our thinking, and a commitment to live by every word of God. As Jesus said: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God" (Luke 4:4).
On the day of Pentecost in 31ad, in the first inspired sermon of the New Testament Church,
the Apostle Peter spoke in Jerusalem to several thousand people, after which they became convicted for their part in killing the Messiah, Jesus Christ. Thousands asked Peter and the other Apostles: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"(Acts 2:37).
Here was Peter's opportunity to tell them that they did not need to do anything more than "believe." Did he tell them so? No! What did he actually say? "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 2:38). Peter proclaimed wonderful news—that they could be forgiven of their sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For this to occur, he insisted on two points—that they repent (of breaking God's Spiritual Law - The 10 Commandments), and that they be baptized.
A Defense Of God's Spiritual Law
"Christians Are Required to Keep God's Law!"
https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/85fa28aa-ec90-48bc-a7af-7d84aafb3da7
Videos
"Did Paul Do Away With the Law?"
Will You Follow Christ or Paul?
Who Says?
The effects of God's Law "done away with" in society.
BILLIONS WEREN’T EXPECTING THIS AFTER DEATH
What happens to faithful, repentant Christians? What happens to those who lived bad lives during this life? What happens to those who Don't keep God's law?
I think save by grace because we do not need doing animal sacrifice anymo
We save by grace, mean we do not need doing animal sacrifice in OT law. But we still to obey law that God put in our heart
Hebrews 10:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[a]
We save by grace, mean we do not need doing animal sacrifice in OT law. But we still to obey law that God put in our heart
Hebrews 10:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[a]