Does the end justify the means?

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ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,283
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#21
Patriotism has almost become a test of faith these days.
I said "patriotism" but that's not really the right word. I love my country, which is patriotism. The thing that has become a test of faith when it really shouldn't is involvement in the political process. You can express patriotism in many ways. Involvement in the political process may or may not be one of them.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
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#22
My question is: Do the ends justify the means.
Your question should be "Does false unity accomplish anything?" And the answer is "No".

Let's focus strictly on genuine Christians in general. Is there unity or is there division (within this forum as an example)? And the answer is obvious. So the only possible unity will be within a local assembly of believers, provided they are all on the same page.

Today the "United" States of America is divided as never before. Many states have talked about secession and that may be the only solution to dealing with the evils coming from Washington, D.C. But Christendom is also seriously divided, and that is not going to change. So the only unity will be when Christ Himself rules the world.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,283
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#23
I see the main point of the post is this (correct me if I'm wrong, ResidentA)
"
Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
13 As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also. 14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?…"--2nd Corinthians 6:14
Yes. . .and especially 2 John 1:9-11: "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."

John says even greeting those who teach false doctrine is the same as participating in it yourself!
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#24
Justbyfaith,



This is going into a different topic--if we should or should not vote wasn't the question it was regarding ecumenicalism--I gave an example of

Question #2 "We need to come together and unite around conservative political candidates for the good of society."

Regarding a conversation I had with a pastor's mother. When I said it didn't vote in last's years election.


My reason: Both candidates were pretending they were something they were not--as nearly all political candidates do. But worst of all, the one candidate many Christian voted for said he was a Christian--this was not demonstrated in his manner or his speech. Also he said he did not have to ask for forgiveness--one of the only two actions one must do to become a Christian: "Repent and believe!"

Therefore I felt he was deceptive and he could not be trusted. A ploy of the criminal mind is to deceive using 'smooth talk'. We should choose people by their actions, not by their words.

Also, after seeing those pastors who came around him--that was very strange. Very.
I think that it might have been better for the nation if you and a number of other people had voted for Trump.

Regardless of his character in his personal life, his policies were good for the country; as compared to Biden's policies that we see being implemented today with inflation going through the roof in only a matter of time.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#25
To make a decision to vote for the lesser evil is yet participating in the sin of the lesser. Think.
To not vote for the lesser evil is to participate in the greater evil. Think.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#26
Here is a very important that you are missing--this verse is spoken to the people of Israel--they were both a nation and a people of faith, living under God's Laws and Commandments. Not so with any other country in the world.

Note: I do believe as a general rule citizens should vote-, but may at times choose not to. Christians must vote according to their faith and conscious and not be swayed by the majority--many of who are putting their faith in man, instead of God.
I believe that this nation is going down the tubes because of this doctrine that Christians ought not to be involved in politics in any manner.

If Christians were a little bit more involved, we would not be in danger of having the mark implemented as a confirmation that we have received the vaccine in the mandates that have been suggested.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
83
#27
I see the main point of the post is this (correct me if I'm wrong, ResidentA)
"
Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
13 As a fair exchange, I ask you as my children: Open wide your hearts also. 14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership can righteousness have with wickedness? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?…"--2nd Corinthians 6:14
Being an influence on the politics in our culture is something different than being unequally yoked together with unbelievers.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#28
I think that it might have been better for the nation if you and a number of other people had voted for Trump.

Regardless of his character in his personal life, his policies were good for the country; as compared to Biden's policies that we see being implemented today with inflation going through the roof in only a matter of time.
Again, JBF, that's not the topic being discussed. We all are free to make decisions based on our conscious. I really don't want this post to turn into a political discussion and you aren't saying anything that I haven't heard before from many others, including the pastor's mother who took our conversation--my difficulty in finding a gospel centered church--into a completely different direction. She ignored my sense of aloneness and angst and had to make me WRONG in some way, ignoring the real issue I had contacted her church about.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#29
Again, JBF, that's not the topic being discussed. We all are free to make decisions based on our conscious. I really don't want this post to turn into a political discussion and you aren't saying anything that I haven't heard before from many others, including the pastor's mother who took our conversation--my difficulty in finding a gospel centered church--into a completely different direction. She ignored my sense of aloneness and angst and had to make me WRONG in some way, ignoring the real issue I had contacted her church about.
Ok.

But I am glad, at least, that I have made my point about Trump being a better choice than Biden in the last election.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#30
Being an influence on the politics in our culture is something different than being unequally yoked together with unbelievers.

I'm not sure what you're missing here--the original post is about ecumenicalism, not politics.
 

Gardenias

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
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U.S.A.
#32
TRUE BELIEVERS,not people who go to church,nor whom observe the practices of cults ,or man but TRUE FOLLOWERS of God have been set apart as special and holy!

I can never agree with someone who doesn't believe the word of God straight and true w/o twisting it to fit their agenda!

JW,Mormons,SDA ect. who can't even interpret the word correctly are in the hands of God.
We cannot fellowship nor come together ( one world church or universalism) with these for ANY cause.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,428
6,706
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#33
To not vote for the lesser evil is to participate in the greater evil. Think.
Allow me to make this clear for you.

To approve of what any evil doer does is participating in his sin.

If you understood my post you would know that either is unworthy of a believer's support. now Think. Do not turn wisdom of the Word into a dispute for it is written to pray for the sinner and not the sin lest you be guilty of the same.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,188
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Brighton, MI
#34
Lately, more and more, ecumenism is taking over. There seem to be several reasons given for this phenomenon, but they're all related.

1. Regardless of theological differences, we need to all unite around common societal issues, like abortion for example.

2. We need to come together and unite around conservative political candidates for the good of society.

3. We need to unite for the sake of peace and the safety of our world.

4. Uniting in solidarity will make Christianity a stronger force for good in the world.

Notice the common thread? It's all about the world.

My question is: Do the ends justify the means. What does God's word say about this? Is it okay to unite in fellowship with heretics and false teachers for the sake of a "better world?" Where did Christ ever promise us a better world? Does uniting with heresy serve to make the world a better place or to make Christianity a much worse place?
In some cases, Yes. When spies hid in her house. She lied to protect them She is even in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:31
And Rahab, the prostitute, welcomed the Israelite spies like friends. And because of her faith, she was not killed with the ones who refused to obey.

Joshua 2
Easy-to-Read Version
Spies in Jericho
2 Joshua son of Nun and all the people were camped at Acacia.[a] Joshua sent out two spies. No one knew that Joshua sent out these men. Joshua said to them, “Go and look at the land, especially the city of Jericho.”

So the men went to the city of Jericho and stayed at the house of a prostitute named Rahab.

2 But someone told the king of Jericho, “Last night some men from Israel came to look for weaknesses in our country.”

3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Do not hide the men who came and stayed in your house. Bring them out. They have come to spy on our country.”

4 Rahab had hidden the two men, but she said, “They did come here, but I didn’t know where they came from. 5 In the evening, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don’t know where they went. But if you go quickly, maybe you can catch them.” 6 (Rahab said this, but really she had taken the men up to the roof and had hidden them in the flax that she had piled up there.)

7 So the king’s men went out of the city, and the people closed the city gates. The king’s men went to look for the two men from Israel. They went to the Jordan River and looked at all the places where people cross the river.

8 The two men were ready to sleep for the night, but Rahab went to the roof to talk to them. 9 She said, “I know that the Lord has given this land to your people. You frighten us. Everyone living in this country is afraid of you. 10 We are afraid because we have heard about the ways that the Lord helped you. We heard that he dried up the Red Sea when you came out of Egypt. We also heard what you did to the two Amorite kings, Sihon and Og. We heard how you destroyed those kings living east of the Jordan River. 11 When we heard about this, we were very afraid. And now, not one of our men is brave enough to fight you, because the Lord your God rules the heavens above and the earth below! 12 So now, I want you to make a promise to me. I was kind to you and helped you. So promise me before the Lord that you will be kind to my family. Please tell me that you will do this. 13 Tell me that you will allow my family to live—my father, mother, brothers, sisters, and all their families. Promise me that you will save us from death.”

14 The men agreed and said, “We will trade our lives for yours. Don’t tell anyone what we are doing. Then, when the Lord gives us the land, we will be kind to you. You can trust us.”

15 Rahab’s house was built into the city wall, so she used a rope to let the men down through a window. 16 Then she said to them, “Go into the hills so that the king’s men will not accidentally find you. Hide there for three days. After the king’s men come back, you can go on your way.”

17 The men said to her, “We made a promise to you. But you must do one thing, or we will not be responsible for our promise. 18 When we come back to this land, you must tie in your window this red rope you are using to help us escape. You must bring your father, your mother, your brothers, and all your family into your house with you. 19 We will protect everyone who stays in this house. If anyone in your house is hurt, we will be responsible. But if they go out of your house and are killed, we will not be responsible. It will be their own fault. 20 We are making this agreement with you. But if you tell anyone about what we are doing, we will be free from this agreement.”

21 Rahab answered, “I will do just what you said.” She said goodbye, and the men left her house. Then she tied the red rope in the window.

22 The men left her house and went into the hills. They stayed there for three days. The king’s men looked all along the road. After three days, they stopped looking and went back to the city. 23 Then the two men went back to Joshua. They left the hills and crossed the river. They went to Joshua and told him everything that they had learned. 24 They said to him, “The Lord really has given us all the land. All the people in that country are afraid of us.”

James 2:25
Another example is Rahab. She was a prostitute, but she was made right with God by something she did. She helped those who were spying for God’s people. She welcomed them into her home and helped them escape by a different road.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
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#35
To approve of what any evil doer does is participating in his sin.
That's true, but I don't think voting for someone means you approve of everything they do. It's far more pragmatic- more like hiring someone to do a job.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,428
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#36
In the realm of what is called knowledge in this age you have the right to think whatever pleases you.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,191
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#37
To not vote for the lesser evil is to participate in the greater evil. Think.
So which sin is worse?
How can such a thing be chosen?

It's like a choice between killing puppies or killing kittens....and you have to choose between the two of which you are in favor of.

So I choose "none of the above" . I'm a pacifist. But I also like eating too...I like eating tasty animals.

And for whatever reason that makes no sense to people.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
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London
christianchat.com
#38
Lately, more and more, ecumenism is taking over. There seem to be several reasons given for this phenomenon, but they're all related.

1. Regardless of theological differences, we need to all unite around common societal issues, like abortion for example.

2. We need to come together and unite around conservative political candidates for the good of society.

3. We need to unite for the sake of peace and the safety of our world.

4. Uniting in solidarity will make Christianity a stronger force for good in the world.

Notice the common thread? It's all about the world.

My question is: Do the ends justify the means. What does God's word say about this? Is it okay to unite in fellowship with heretics and false teachers for the sake of a "better world?" Where did Christ ever promise us a better world? Does uniting with heresy serve to make the world a better place or to make Christianity a much worse place?
I think if anyone is preaching the truth they just won't have time to spend on ecumenicalism. Let's go and let them chase after us ... that's God's way.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
83
#39
Allow me to make this clear for you.

To approve of what any evil doer does is participating in his sin.

If you understood my post you would know that either is unworthy of a believer's support. now Think. Do not turn wisdom of the Word into a dispute for it is written to pray for the sinner and not the sin lest you be guilty of the same.
I would simply disagree with you, and say that if you cannot make a situation happen where no evil is accomplished; but only have a choice where a lesser evil and a greater evil are the only two possibilities; that choosing the lesser evil is to choose against the greater evil in that situation. And if you do not choose the lesser evil in that situation, you become responsible for the greater evil.
 

justbyfaith

Well-known member
Sep 16, 2021
4,707
462
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#40
It's like a choice between killing puppies or killing kittens..
More like choosing between killing puppies and killing worms. Puppies and kittens are on the same level; so there is not a greater and lesser evil in that scenario.