Done Away?
- Thread starter Hizikyah
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J
If we are to live by faith and faith alone, then why did Jesus bother with all the teaching?
And again, whats it gonna hurt? Accepting these teachings has nothing to do with rejecting Jesus. If anything, doing away with these teachings would be rejecting Jesus as many of these books are the foundation of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus is the word, and the word is in the books you are wanting to do away with.
And again, whats it gonna hurt? Accepting these teachings has nothing to do with rejecting Jesus. If anything, doing away with these teachings would be rejecting Jesus as many of these books are the foundation of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus is the word, and the word is in the books you are wanting to do away with.
John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."
Luke 11:28, "But He said: Yet, rather, blessed are those who hear the plan of Yahweh, and keep; guard, preserve, and obey, it!"
Romans 1:5, "By Whom we have received mercy and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His Name."
Luke 11:28, "But He said: Yet, rather, blessed are those who hear the plan of Yahweh, and keep; guard, preserve, and obey, it!"
Romans 1:5, "By Whom we have received mercy and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His Name."
J
it's been quoted ad infinitum (many times) already,
but it is so important, and simpler than most allow; unless we bcome like little children ,we cannot (even) see the kingdom of heaven nor God.
Jesus said simply, spend a lot of time with and seeking God, and gradually our focus will change from ourselves to Him.
Listen to Him and do what He says. Watch Him and do what He does. LIke the disciples of Jesus, they did what Jesus said, even
though they didn't always understand it(and Jesus rebuked them sometimes for their little faith and lack of faith and lack of understanding),
but IF they stayed with Jesus, they did what He said to do. That's what Jesus wants today also. very simply. pure. true.
blessed, happy and and peace is the man who meditates on God's Word daily, often, turning to God for His help all days, and seeking
what God wants to do.
but it is so important, and simpler than most allow; unless we bcome like little children ,we cannot (even) see the kingdom of heaven nor God.
Jesus said simply, spend a lot of time with and seeking God, and gradually our focus will change from ourselves to Him.
Listen to Him and do what He says. Watch Him and do what He does. LIke the disciples of Jesus, they did what Jesus said, even
though they didn't always understand it(and Jesus rebuked them sometimes for their little faith and lack of faith and lack of understanding),
but IF they stayed with Jesus, they did what He said to do. That's what Jesus wants today also. very simply. pure. true.
blessed, happy and and peace is the man who meditates on God's Word daily, often, turning to God for His help all days, and seeking
what God wants to do.
I'm not wanting to do away with anything. Even if I did, I couldn't. The Law is part of Gods Plan. Its just not the end of His Plan.
Galatians 3:23-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:23-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
W
In Christ we are dead, baptized into his death, Not only, but Paul says he is delivered unto death daily. But also the law is written in our hearts and we are a law unto ourselves, as scripture says.That Jesus ,through the Holy Spirit abides in and lives his life and will through us. But we have nothing to glory but, in our savior ,the Fathers great love for us, manifest to all to principalities and powers ,show and made open to all men,declared from on high. This is the word, the law , that I think as we mature we should knowably live by. Jesus showed that just the though of wrong is sin already. And prov.24:9 The though of foolishness is sin. It is our new heart ,and resurrected life, by God living in us, and fellowship to the rest of his body, that should be our word and law in the New Cov. I'm sure if we live by this hear of God , we will always fulfill and even exceed the righteousness of the law
23 Now before the time for this trusting faithfulness came, we were imprisoned in subjection to the system which results from perverting the Torah into legalism, kept under guard until this yet-to-come trusting faithfulness would be revealed. 24 Accordingly, the Torah functioned as a custodian until the Messiah came, so that we might be declared righteous on the ground of trusting and being faithful. 25 But now that the time for this trusting faithfulness has come, we are no longer under a custodian. 26 For in union with the Messiah, you are all children of God through this trusting faithfulness; Galatians 3
I like this version because it communicates the point clearer at least to my mind.
The Torah itself was not bad but the Jews made it legalistic by trusting in their own ability to obey and gain salvation. Yet if they had simply put their faith in God then they would have attained to the righteousness of the law for real and not just on the outside.
Faith does not do away with the law as I am sure you agree, rather Faith is what makes the law reality in the life as it is written:
Romans 3
29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; 30 because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. 31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.
God never asked the Jews to do something that could not be done, as it is written:
Deut 30
10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the Torah, if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being. 11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. 12 It isn't in the sky, so that you need to ask, 'Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 13 Likewise, it isn't beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, 'Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!
They were right that the law had to be obeyed just as it does today, there is no change in the command to obey the 10 commandments. but the Gentiles are able to obey them perfectly because they do so by faith and not by legalistic obedience to the letter. but by the Spirit as it is written:
Rom 9
30 So, what are we to say? This: that Gentiles, even though they were not striving for righteousness, have obtained righteousness; but it is a righteousness grounded in trusting! 31 However, Isra'el, even though they kept pursuing a Torah that offers righteousness, did not reach what the Torah offers. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue righteousness as being grounded in trusting but as if it were grounded in doing legalistic works. They stumbled over the stone that makes people stumble.
Thus it is written which is also true for the Jews:
Rom 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God's powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile. 17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in his sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust - as the Tanakh puts it, "But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust."
See is this not true as the apostle said quoting the Tanakh, Faith was and is the only way of righteousness:
Hab 2
4 "Look at the proud: he is inwardly not upright; but the righteous will attain life through trusting faithfulness.
notice the problem is inwardly. This is why Jesus kept pointing out that they are clean on the outside but not on the inward, they obeyed the letter but the law was not in their hearts as it is written:
Isaiah 29
13 Then Adonai said: "Because these people approach me with empty words, and the honor they bestow on me is mere lip-service; while in fact they have distanced their hearts from me, and their 'fear of me' is just a mitzvah of human origin
Yet even when the law was given was it not said to have the law in their hearts?
Deut 6
4 "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad [Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one]; 5 and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources. 6 These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart;
So it is that the conditions are the same in this case, The law is meant to be kept but not simply the letter of the law but the spirit of the law written in our hearts by Faith/trust. as it is written:
Romans 8
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death. 3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.
and again:
Heb 8
10 "'For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days,' says ADONAI: 'I will put my Torah in their minds and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Blessings and may the peace of God be upon you.
I like this version because it communicates the point clearer at least to my mind.
The Torah itself was not bad but the Jews made it legalistic by trusting in their own ability to obey and gain salvation. Yet if they had simply put their faith in God then they would have attained to the righteousness of the law for real and not just on the outside.
Faith does not do away with the law as I am sure you agree, rather Faith is what makes the law reality in the life as it is written:
Romans 3
29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; 30 because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. 31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.
God never asked the Jews to do something that could not be done, as it is written:
Deut 30
10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the Torah, if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being. 11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. 12 It isn't in the sky, so that you need to ask, 'Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 13 Likewise, it isn't beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, 'Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!
They were right that the law had to be obeyed just as it does today, there is no change in the command to obey the 10 commandments. but the Gentiles are able to obey them perfectly because they do so by faith and not by legalistic obedience to the letter. but by the Spirit as it is written:
Rom 9
30 So, what are we to say? This: that Gentiles, even though they were not striving for righteousness, have obtained righteousness; but it is a righteousness grounded in trusting! 31 However, Isra'el, even though they kept pursuing a Torah that offers righteousness, did not reach what the Torah offers. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue righteousness as being grounded in trusting but as if it were grounded in doing legalistic works. They stumbled over the stone that makes people stumble.
Thus it is written which is also true for the Jews:
Rom 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God's powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile. 17 For in it is revealed how God makes people righteous in his sight; and from beginning to end it is through trust - as the Tanakh puts it, "But the person who is righteous will live his life by trust."
See is this not true as the apostle said quoting the Tanakh, Faith was and is the only way of righteousness:
Hab 2
4 "Look at the proud: he is inwardly not upright; but the righteous will attain life through trusting faithfulness.
notice the problem is inwardly. This is why Jesus kept pointing out that they are clean on the outside but not on the inward, they obeyed the letter but the law was not in their hearts as it is written:
Isaiah 29
13 Then Adonai said: "Because these people approach me with empty words, and the honor they bestow on me is mere lip-service; while in fact they have distanced their hearts from me, and their 'fear of me' is just a mitzvah of human origin
Yet even when the law was given was it not said to have the law in their hearts?
Deut 6
4 "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad [Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one]; 5 and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources. 6 These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart;
So it is that the conditions are the same in this case, The law is meant to be kept but not simply the letter of the law but the spirit of the law written in our hearts by Faith/trust. as it is written:
Romans 8
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death. 3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.
and again:
Heb 8
10 "'For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days,' says ADONAI: 'I will put my Torah in their minds and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Blessings and may the peace of God be upon you.
It wasn't a prophecy, it was a figure of speech. He didn't say 'heaven and earth WILL pass away before the Law is fulfilled', did He.
And you left off the 'until all be fulfilled' part.
Again, Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. Either He did it, or He lied. Which one was it?
Written while under the Law to those under the Law.
Nowhere in the NT are believers in Christ commanded to remember the Law of Moses.
Our remembrance is of Christ and His Work - in the Bread and the Wine.
It tells us the state of mankind before the New Covenant. The Law leads mankind to Christ. After that, the Law id no longer the believer's supervisor under the New Covenant (see Gal. 3).
Again, the condition for jots and tittles passing is not that heaven and earth pass, but that the Law be fulfilled.
And again, we have to deal with the words of Christ Himself, when He stated that He came to fulfill the Law. Something I think worth noting, as well, is that Christ fulfilling the Law was as monumental as heaven and earth passing. In other words, a very big deal!
Either He did fulfill the Law as He said He came to do, and jots and tittles have passed (demonstrably true with the passing of the sacrificial system, priesthood, and Temple), or He lied. There is no third option.
The physical, historical, and practical evidence all support that jots and tittles have passed. Heaven and earth are still obviously here, so that could not have been a prerequisite in addition to the Law being fulfilled for jots and tittles to be able to pass, or the sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, and Temple would still be around (being parts of the jots and tittles).
Hope that helps to answer your questions
.-JGIG
(I don't know what's up with the quote tags - couldn't get them right; everything in the blue boxes is Hizikyah's.)
K
People keep forgetting that the Lord fulfills the law through and in us.
By following the two greatest commands that He gave us fulfills the law and the prophets. This is because by walking in total love will keep you from wanting to do anything wrong, and have you be obedient to the rest of the Lords teachings. Those who walk disorderly, and the unbelievers will still be held in check by the law. But they will no longer have to face the curses from the law, but they will have judgment and a fiery indignation awaiting them.
A believer in Him can not walk contrary to what He said, if they do the bible list them as disobedient or illegitimate and headed for the lake of fire........
By following the two greatest commands that He gave us fulfills the law and the prophets. This is because by walking in total love will keep you from wanting to do anything wrong, and have you be obedient to the rest of the Lords teachings. Those who walk disorderly, and the unbelievers will still be held in check by the law. But they will no longer have to face the curses from the law, but they will have judgment and a fiery indignation awaiting them.
A believer in Him can not walk contrary to what He said, if they do the bible list them as disobedient or illegitimate and headed for the lake of fire........
It wasn't a prophecy, it was a figure of speech. He didn't say 'heaven and earth WILL pass away before the Law is fulfilled', did He.
And you left off the 'until all be fulfilled' part.
Again, Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. Either He did it, or He lied. Which one was it?
Written while under the Law to those under the Law.
Nowhere in the NT are believers in Christ commanded to remember the Law of Moses.
Our remembrance is of Christ and His Work - in the Bread and the Wine.
It tells us the state of mankind before the New Covenant. The Law leads mankind to Christ. After that, the Law id no longer the believer's supervisor under the New Covenant (see Gal. 3).
Again, the condition for jots and tittles passing is not that heaven and earth pass, but that the Law be fulfilled.
And again, we have to deal with the words of Christ Himself, when He stated that He came to fulfill the Law. Something I think worth noting, as well, is that Christ fulfilling the Law was as monumental as heaven and earth passing. In other words, a very big deal!
Either He did fulfill the Law as He said He came to do, and jots and tittles have passed (demonstrably true with the passing of the sacrificial system, priesthood, and Temple), or He lied. There is no third option.
The physical, historical, and practical evidence all support that jots and tittles have passed. Heaven and earth are still obviously here, so that could not have been a prerequisite in addition to the Law being fulfilled for jots and tittles to be able to pass, or the sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, and Temple would still be around (being parts of the jots and tittles).
Hope that helps to answer your questions
.-JGIG
(I don't know what's up with the quote tags - couldn't get them right; everything in the blue boxes is Hizikyah's.)
Matt 5
18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened.
notice the word "until" that emphatically means that Jesus knows that all that must happen will not be complete until after the heaven and the earth pass.
its right there in the verse no way around it, Jesus is making it clear. now had you understood the law and the prophets you would also know that not all has been fulfilled yet. Jesus has not come back as king and ruler yet, the law prophecies He would.
Judgement has not been done and sin destroyed, the law said it would.
Your problem is that you assume that all the law had to say was in regard to sacrifice in that you are mistaken. Jesus did indeed come to fulfil the law but he made it clear it would not be totally fulfilled till after the heavens and earth pass away.
Yes Jesus fulfilled parts of the law in his death and resurrection. but He does not say I came to fulfil it all at the cross. as very clearly seen in the text.
to me all these are non issues....Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law.....and he did not...yet people want to say he did...it is clear as day....he said don't even think it...
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Are the sacrificial system and priesthood and the Temple a part of the jots and tittles or not?
They have passed away, yes?
Just as you can observe that heaven and earth have not passed, I can observe that MANY jots and tittles HAVE passed.
That being the case, your interpretation MUST be in error.
-JGIG
They have passed away, yes?
Just as you can observe that heaven and earth have not passed, I can observe that MANY jots and tittles HAVE passed.
That being the case, your interpretation MUST be in error.
-JGIG
K
Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, this symbol of law. Joshua, who's name in Hebrew is Yahshua, led Israel into the promised land.
The day that the law was given, some 3,000 people died and the day that Peter first preach the gospel under the Holy Spirit some 3,000 were saved and fill with the Holy Spirit.
The day that the law was given it was immediately broken and had to be rewritten by a man. After the Cross, I will write my laws in their hearts and in their minds and I shall be their God and they shall be my people.
The law is not done away with, it is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. For by one man sin entered the world and by one man, man is free from sin ( those that have faith in the work of the cross)
Jesus said, you are told that you should not commit murder. But, I tell you that if you look at a man with hatred in your heart, you have already committed murder. This is higher than law and can only be done by The Spirit, through the means of the cross.
I tell that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Peter said "Lord what shall we do" Jesus said "with God all things are possible".
The day that the law was given, some 3,000 people died and the day that Peter first preach the gospel under the Holy Spirit some 3,000 were saved and fill with the Holy Spirit.
The day that the law was given it was immediately broken and had to be rewritten by a man. After the Cross, I will write my laws in their hearts and in their minds and I shall be their God and they shall be my people.
The law is not done away with, it is fulfilled in Christ Jesus. For by one man sin entered the world and by one man, man is free from sin ( those that have faith in the work of the cross)
Jesus said, you are told that you should not commit murder. But, I tell you that if you look at a man with hatred in your heart, you have already committed murder. This is higher than law and can only be done by The Spirit, through the means of the cross.
I tell that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Peter said "Lord what shall we do" Jesus said "with God all things are possible".