Done Away?

[gotime]

Are the sacrificial system and priesthood and the Temple a part of the jots and tittles or not?

They have passed away, yes?

Just as you can observe that heaven and earth have not passed, I can observe that MANY jots and tittles HAVE passed.

That being the case, your interpretation MUST be in error.

-JGIG

Yes the priesthood on earth is over, but there is still a high preist, Jesus.

Yes the sacrifices are over but there is still a sacrifice even Jesus.

The earthly temple is over but there is still the heavenly one.

The law still remains as it is clearly written and attested to in these posts.

Is there a temple in heaven?

Heb 8

1 Here is the whole point of what we have been saying: we do have just such a cohen gadol as has been described. And he does sit at the right hand of HaG'dulah in heaven.d 2 There he serves in the Holy Place, that is, in the true Tent of Meeting, the one erected not by human beings but by ADONAI. 3 For every cohen gadol is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so this cohen gadol too has to have something he can offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he wouldn't be a cohen at all, since there already are cohanim offering the gifts required by the Torah. 5 But what they are serving is only a copy and shadow of the heavenly original; for when Moshe was about to erect the Tent, God warned him, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern you were shown on the mountain."

So we know that the sanctuary given to Moses was a copy of the one in heaven where Jesus is High priest.

The only reason a sacrifice and priest was needed was because the 10 commandments were broken.

So if the earthy was a copy of the heavenly that means the 10 commandments are in heaven, can this be varified?

Yes indeed as John was shown in vision:

Rev 11
19Then the Temple of God in heaven was opened, and the Ark of the Covenant was seen in his Temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake and violent hail.

and again in this place:

Rev 15
5 After this I looked, and the sanctuary (that is, the Tent of Witness in heaven) was opened, 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean bright linen and had gold belts around their chests.

If Jesus is your high priest still then the law still applies, for without a law there is no need for a priest or a temple in heaven.

The law and the prophets teach us of heavenly truths, part of those heavenly truths are the 10 commandments.

 

[gotime]

Another point is that I never said nothing had been fulfilled I simply attested to the fact that not all has been fulfilled.

 

[Hizikyah]

Another point is that I never said nothing had been fulfilled I simply attested to the fact that not all has been fulfilled.

I agree

This has not YET been fulfilled:

Daniyl 7:13-14, " I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they were brought together before Him. And there was given Him ruling authority, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should obey Him; His government is an everlasting government, which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed."


"Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

 

[newbirth]

Another point is that I never said nothing had been fulfilled I simply attested to the fact that not all has been fulfilled.

the argument over what is fulfilled and what is not is pointless regarding the law...the law has not been destroyed......Christ removes the believer from the penalty of the law.....it is the same law that condemns the unbeliever....if it were destroyed there would be nothing to identify sin and condemn the unbeliever.... God had concluded all under sin so there must be a law to identify sin...Christ is the end of the law to them that believe...not to those who do not believe....

 

[newbirth]

Perhaps some think He fulfilled all of the verse u quote...except the first 2 words?

it does not matter what I say ...but what scripture says...scripture says..
he said don’t think it ....yet people do .....blatant disregard disrespect and disobedience...

.Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[newbirth]

I'm not wanting to do away with anything. Even if I did, I couldn't. The Law is part of Gods Plan. Its just not the end of His Plan.

Galatians 3:23-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

sure we are but that does not he killed the schoolmaster...in Christ we are not under the schoolmaster......those who are not in Christ are judged by the schoolmaster...

 

[john832]

sure we are but that does not he killed the schoolmaster...in Christ we are not under the schoolmaster......those who are not in Christ are judged by the schoolmaster...

Frankly, the schoolmaster does not refer to the entirety of the Law, it refers to the sacrifices. They are what pointed to Christ...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;


Notice how many times the word "sacrifice" is used here? That is the subject matter. What was the purpose of sacrifices?

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

They never did pay the penalty for sin. An animal was never worth as much as a man but Christ, the Creator, was worth more than the sum total of His creation.

Notice verse 8?

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

What Law? Were sacrifices actually a part of the Ten Commandments?

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

No, they were added later...

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

What was taken away? What is the context here? Sacrifices and offerings. Read verse 10 carefully, how are we sanctified? By the offering of the body of Christ. This sacrifice was made once for all. One could add time here, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time." and it does not change the meaning but rather enhances it. It shows that Christ's sacrifice was enough for all past, present and future sin.

 

[Grandpa]

Another point is that I never said nothing had been fulfilled I simply attested to the fact that not all has been fulfilled.

The only thing not fulfilled by Christ is that the schoolmaster has not brought everyone it was designed to, to Christ.

Otherwise the Lord wouldn't have said "It is Finished". He would have said "Its not over".

Paul (nor anyone else) couldn't tell us that we who have come to Christ are no longer under the Law if the Lord didn't completely fulfill it. We would have to fulfill the parts that Christ didn't. The Lord couldn't say Come to Me and I will give you Rest. He would have to say Help for the parts that are still left for us to fulfill.

Everyone who argues for the Law and how we are still under parts or all of it just hasn't come to the Revelation of Christ. Why is that? I don't exactly know. The scriptures alludes to many reasons. None of them are flattering...

 

[gotime]

The only thing not fulfilled by Christ is that the schoolmaster has not brought everyone it was designed to, to Christ.

Otherwise the Lord wouldn't have said "It is Finished". He would have said "Its not over".

Paul (nor anyone else) couldn't tell us that we who have come to Christ are no longer under the Law if the Lord didn't completely fulfill it. We would have to fulfill the parts that Christ didn't. The Lord couldn't say Come to Me and I will give you Rest. He would have to say Help for the parts that are still left for us to fulfill.

Everyone who argues for the Law and how we are still under parts or all of it just hasn't come to the Revelation of Christ. Why is that? I don't exactly know. The scriptures alludes to many reasons. None of them are flattering...

note what the law teaches:

Heb 9

7 but only the cohen hagadol enters the inner one; and he goes in only once a year, and he must always bring blood, which he offers both for himself and for the sins committed in ignorance by the people.

Yet this is fulfilled in Yeshua as it is written:

11 But when the Messiah appeared as cohen gadol of the good things that are happening already, then, through the greater and more perfect Tent which is not man-made (that is, it is not of this created world), 12 he entered the Holiest Place once and for all. And he entered not by means of the blood of goats and calves, but by means of his own blood, thus setting people free forever.

and again in this place:

Heb 5
5 So neither did the Messiah glorify himself to become cohen gadol; rather, it was the One who said to him, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father." 6 Also, as he says in another place, "You are a cohen forever, to be compared with Malki-Tzedek."

So Christ entered into the heavenly Sanctuary as our High priest as it is written:

Heb 9
24 For the Messiah has entered a Holiest Place which is not man-made and merely a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, in order to appear now on our behalf in the very presence of God.

and hear in this place Jesus says "it is finished"

John 19
30 After Yeshua had taken the wine, he said, "It is accomplished!" And, letting his head droop, he delivered up his spirit.

Now come let us reason together says the Lord, If the law speaks of Christ entering into heaven as our high priest once with His own blood.

yet Jesus says "it is finished" before this takes place, then we know that Jesus most accurately did not intend or imply that he meant all the law is fulfilled at this point.

This is just one of the many things the Torah/law teaches that were to take place after the death and resurrection of Yeshau.

Yet at present we may say that we do indeed look unto Yeshua as our priest and not a earthly priest. But still a priest none the less.

and what is it that a priest does? Does He not minister in the heavens on our behalf? Does he not intercede for us? however at the time Christ said it is finished He had not yet ascended and become our high priest. But he had made the sacrifices necessary for the role to begin.

but remember in the heavenly is the tables of testimony. The 10 commandments are not done away with. for if they are then there is no need for sacrifice any more. no need for a priest in heaven. as it is written:

Romans 5

13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah.

Are you in the new earth now? no the law has still Yet aspects that are yet to be finished and when they are it shall be declared done as it is written:

Rev 21
5 Then the One sitting on the throne said, "Look! I am making everything new!" Also he said, "Write, 'These words are true and trustworthy!'" 6 And he said to me, "It is done! ...

There is yet things to be done in which the law testifies to. But we look unto Yeshua who will fulfil all things at the appointed time, as it is written:

matt 5
17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

He came to complete them not get rid of them. many assume wrongly that He meant he would complete them all at the cross on earth. this is ignorance of the Torah to say so. it is also ignorance of the very words of Jesus who made it clear that heaven and earth would pass away first. thus as it is written in revelation before He says "it is done":

Rev 21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had passed away, and the sea was no longer there. 2 Also I saw the holy city, New Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 I heard a loud voice from the throne say, "See! God's Sh'khinah is with mankind, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and he himself, God-with-them, will be their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will no longer be any death; and there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain; because the old order has passed away." 5 Then the One sitting on the throne said, "Look! I am making everything new!" Also he said, "Write, 'These words are true and trustworthy!'" 6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the 'A' and the 'Z,' the Beginning and the End. To anyone who is thirsty I myself will give water free of charge from the Fountain of Life.

as the Torah has said through the Prophet Isaiah,

Isa65
17 "For, look! I create new heavens and a new earth; past things will not be remembered, they will no more come to mind. 18 So be glad and rejoice forever in what I am creating; for look! I am making Yerushalayim a joy, and her people a delight. 19 I will rejoice in Yerushalayim and take joy in my people. The sound of weeping will no longer be heard in it, no longer the sound of crying.

This day is Yet to come and when it does the Lord shall for the last time declare "it is done!" and the Torah shall find its total end in Yeshua.

 

[jaybird88]

another thought on all this. if your thinking about topics like this with compelling arguments on both sides and have any confusion, dont be. if your heart is truly seeking the Lord, he will never let you be deceived in this search and led the wrong way.

 

[gotime]

The only thing not fulfilled by Christ is that the schoolmaster has not brought everyone it was designed to, to Christ.

Otherwise the Lord wouldn't have said "It is Finished". He would have said "Its not over".

Paul (nor anyone else) couldn't tell us that we who have come to Christ are no longer under the Law if the Lord didn't completely fulfill it. We would have to fulfill the parts that Christ didn't. The Lord couldn't say Come to Me and I will give you Rest. He would have to say Help for the parts that are still left for us to fulfill.

Everyone who argues for the Law and how we are still under parts or all of it just hasn't come to the Revelation of Christ. Why is that? I don't exactly know. The scriptures alludes to many reasons. None of them are flattering...

Permit me also to speak to your first sentence:

You are correct that the schoolmaster has not brought all to Christ yet. but that includes those who speak against Torah.

if Christ is a minister of the heavenly sanctuary of which the earthly is a shadow as it is written:

Heb 8
1 Here is the whole point of what we have been saying: we do have just such a cohen gadol as has been described. And he does sit at the right hand of HaG'dulah in heaven.d 2 There he serves in the Holy Place, that is, in the true Tent of Meeting, the one erected not by human beings but by ADONAI.

and again:

5 But what they are serving is only a copy and shadow of the heavenly original; for when Moshe was about to erect the Tent, God warned him, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern you were shown on the mountain."

did not the Old contain the ark of the covenant namely the 10 commandments? yes indeed as it is written:

heb 9
1 Now the first covenant had both regulations for worship and a Holy Place here on earth. 2 A tent was set up, the outer one, which was called the Holy Place; in it were the menorah, the table and the Bread of the Presence. 3 Behind the second parokhet was a tent called the Holiest Place,4 which had the golden altar for burning incense and the Ark of the Covenant, entirely covered with gold. In the Ark were the gold jar containing the man, Aharon's rod that sprouted and the stone Tablets of the Covenant; 5 and above it were the k'ruvim representing the Sh'khinah, casting their shadow on the lid of the Ark - but now is not the time to discuss these things in detail.

So then Christ ministers in the heavenly Sanctuary in which is the 10 commandments of God. so also John saw when Yeshua showed him in vision as it is written:

Rev 11
19Then the Temple of God in heaven was opened, and the Ark of the Covenant was seen in his Temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake and violent hail.

and again:

Rev 15
4 ADONAI, who will not fear and glorify your name? because you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed." 5 After this I looked, and the sanctuary (that is, the Tent of Witness in heaven) was opened, 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean bright linen and had gold belts around their chests.

Those who teach that it is ok to disregard any or all of the 10 commandments have yet to be lead by the schoolmaster. They are yet to taste the power of God which is in Yeshua.

Does not he Torah/schoolmaster teach of sacrifice because of breaking the Torah/10 commandants.

Does not the schoolmaster teach of a high priest in a heavenly temple?

Does not the schoolmaster teach that we shall be judged by the Torah?

Indeed it does as it is written:

Ecc 12
13Here is the final conclusion, now that you have heard everything: fear God, and keep his mitzvot; this is what being human is all about. 14 For God will bring to judgment everything we do, including every secret, whether good or bad. [Here is the final conclusion, now that you have heard everything: fear God, and keep his mitzvot; this is what being human is all about.]

and again:

James 2
10 For a person who keeps the whole Torah, yet stumbles at one point, has become guilty of breaking them all. 11 For the One who said, "Don't commit adultery," also said, "Don't murder."c Now, if you don't commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the Torah. 12 Keep speaking and acting like people who will be judged by a Torah which gives freedom.

and again in this place:

Rev 15
4 ADONAI, who will not fear and glorify your name? because you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed." 5 After this I looked, and the sanctuary (that is, the Tent of Witness in heaven) was opened, 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean bright linen and had gold belts around their chests. 7 One of the four living beings gave to the seven angels seven gold bowls filled with the fury of God, who lives forever and ever. 8 Then the sanctuary was filled with smoke from God's Sh'khinah, that is, from his power; and no one could enter the sanctuary until the seven plagues of the seven angels had accomplished their purpose.

The 7 angels with 7 plagues come from the most Holy Place where the testimonies in the ark are.

Many do not understand of know these things because they have not yet known the Torah and thus have not been led to Yeshua in entirety. They pick parts and leave out others.

But Yeshua will complete all that is written of Him. and Many will fail because they did not look to Christ in all the Torah has said.

People read the New testament and have not known its background. Christ Yeshua is also Judge should we not understand from the Torah what the Judge will do and how and by what standard. Many who claim the name of Jesus will perish as it is written:

Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for want of knowledge. Because you rejected knowledge, I will also reject you as cohen for me. Because you forgot the Torah of your God, I will also forget your children.

Only those who keep the law of God by faith in Yeshua and His power will see the kingdom but those who live lawless lives will perish as Yeshua said:

Matt 7

22 On that Day, many will say to me, `Lord, Lord! Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we expel demons in your name? Didn't we perform many miracles in your name?' 23Then I will tell them to their faces, `I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!'

Notice the issue on the day that men plead to be accepted Jesus says you are workers of "lawlessness". The issue is they do not keep the law.

Those who teach to disobey the law of God have yet to come to Yeshua.

 

[newbirth]

Frankly, the schoolmaster does not refer to the entirety of the Law, it refers to the sacrifices. They are what pointed to Christ...

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

The law as a schoolmaster is referring to the law as a guide to follow...in the context of doing what is right and not be overly concerned with rituals pertaining to when you have done wrong...the children of Israel placed more emphasis on the sacrifices than actually obeying the law....but God loves obedience better than sacrifices...
`

Notice how many times the word "sacrifice" is used here? That is the subject matter. What was the purpose of sacrifices?

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

They never did pay the penalty for sin. An animal was never worth as much as a man but Christ, the Creator, was worth more than the sum total of His creation.

Notice verse 8?

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

What Law? Were sacrifices actually a part of the Ten Commandments?

Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

No, they were added later...

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

sacrifices were not a part of the ten commandnents but the ten commandments is in the whole law...and there is a curse on anyone who tries to separate them...
Deuteronomy 27:26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

What was taken away? What is the context here? Sacrifices and offerings. Read verse 10 carefully, how are we sanctified? By the offering of the body of Christ. This sacrifice was made once for all. One could add time here, "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time." and it does not change the meaning but rather enhances it. It shows that Christ's sacrifice was enough for all past, present and future sin.

not so he takes away the whole first covenant and establish the second covenant....which is also proof that the old covenant is not destroyed....since the other is called the second

you cannot add time there... the offering is for all men.....if it were as you say then Ananias and his wife died without cause...

Hebrews 10:26

• King James Version
  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 

[john832]

The law as a schoolmaster is referring to the law as a guide to follow...in the context of doing what is right and not be overly concerned with rituals pertaining to when you have done wrong...the children of Israel placed more emphasis on the sacrifices than actually obeying the law....but God loves obedience better than sacrifices...
`

sacrifices were not a part of the ten commandnents but the ten commandments is in the whole law...and there is a curse on anyone who tries to separate them...
Deuteronomy 27:26King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.







not so he takes away the whole first covenant and establish the second covenant....which is also proof that the old covenant is not destroyed....since the other is called the second

you cannot add time there... the offering is for all men.....if it were as you say then Ananias and his wife died without cause...

Hebrews 10:26

• King James Version
  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Let's address this last part first. Sure you can put time there. Christ's sacrifice was for all time, past present and future. His sacrifice was looked forward to by the animal sacrifices.

If the animal sacrifices and the Law are one and cannot be separated then according to this...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We are no longer under any part of the Law. I can assure you that we are. If you break the sixth Commandment, you are guilty of murder.

 

[Grandpa]

Let's address this last part first. Sure you can put time there. Christ's sacrifice was for all time, past present and future. His sacrifice was looked forward to by the animal sacrifices.

If the animal sacrifices and the Law are one and cannot be separated then according to this...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We are no longer under any part of the Law. I can assure you that we are. If you break the sixth Commandment, you are guilty of murder.

The schoolmaster doesn't teach us to break the Law. The schoolmaster has taught us that we can't keep the Law in our own effort. We need supernatural help.

We need the Holy Spirit or we are doomed.

That's what the Lord Jesus gives us and grows inside us when we come to Him. The Holy Spirit. Just like it was prophesied in Ezekiel 36. That's why the Lord Jesus says Come to me and I will give you rest. Because it is the Holy Spirit that is the cause of keeping Gods Law. There is no other cause.

The 10 commandments were a description of what Ezekiel 36 would look like. A person with the Holy Spirit would Love God and Love their neighbor.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

We have faith in Christ that He will do what He has said He will do. Not in our work at trying to obey the Law.

 

[Hizikyah]

From another thread but I believe relevant and helpful to the overall topic here;

I assume I would be called one of the "legalists" here....

We are told the Mystery of Iniquity has overtaken the words in Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2:7, "For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan..."

I think the Mystery of Iniquity has made people think calling a sin what it is...legalism.

Yahdah 1:4, "For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."

Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother frankly, so you will not share in his guilt."

Mattithyah 14:10-14, "Beware that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I say to you: In heaven their malakim always see the face of My Father Who is in heaven. The Son of Man has come to save that which was lost; So what do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, but one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine to go search the mountains for the one that has gone astray? And if it should be that he finds it, truly I say to you that he rejoices more over that one, than over the ninety-nine which never strayed. In the same way, it is not the will of your Father Who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."

Matt 15:14, "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch."

I am imperfect I know I don't always say things in the right way.

One thing I find troublesome, is that if I stated this ("Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city") I would be called a legalists, yet Messiah said it in His final written message to mankind....

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

I'm open to correction if I am in error.

I think there is a proper truth between licentiousness and justified by works, It is called obedience to the Spirit, explained in the word....

Yahchanan (John) 4:24, "Yahweh is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth."

Isayah 59:21, "As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Yahweh: My Spirit which is upon you, namely My Word (Instructions) which I have put in your mouth; they will not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your seed, nor from the mouth of your seed's seed, says Yahweh: from this time and forevermore."

John 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Words (Instructions) that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Romans 8:13, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of Yahweh, they are the sons of Yahweh!"

Ezekiyl 36:26-27, "A new heart; mind, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep My Laws."

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

"Law" is word #H8451 - torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah

Here is a passage from Paul, about those that have been cleansed by the blood of Messiah:

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

I know I know if I dont go full licentious im considered "justified by works" BY MOST MEN....

Yahdah 1:4, "For there are certain men who have secretly crept in, who were before of old ordained for this condemnation, unholy men, who turn the undeserved pardon of our One Supreme Savior Yahweh into licentiousness, and deny Yahshua our Messiah."

Romans 1:28-32, "And so, since they did not like to retain Yahweh in their knowledge, Yahweh gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not proper; Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual impurity, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, Backbiters, haters of Yahweh, despiteful, arrogant, and boastful. They are inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, And without understanding. They are covenant-breakers, without natural affection, implacable, and unmerciful: Who, knowing the righteous judgment of Yahweh, that those who practice such things deserve death, not only continue to do these very things, but also approve of those who practice them."

Yeremyah 7:9-11, "Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, vow falsely, burn incense to Baal, follow hinder gods you know nothing of, And then come and stand before Me in this House upon which My Name is called, and say; We are saved! Saved to do all these abominations? Has this House, which is called with My Name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen this! says Yahweh."

 

[JGIG]

Are the sacrificial system and priesthood and the Temple a part of the jots and tittles or not?

They have passed away, yes?

Just as you can observe that heaven and earth have not passed, I can observe that MANY jots and tittles HAVE passed.

That being the case, your interpretation MUST be in error.

-JGIG

Yes the priesthood on earth is over, but there is still a high preist, Jesus.

Yep. New Priesthood; New Law. Christ isn't even of the right Tribe to mediate the Old Covenant.

Yes the sacrifices are over but there is still a sacrifice even Jesus.

Yep. The Once for all, for all time sacrifice. The Law requires that sacrifices be made repeatedly (Heb. 10:8-10). That's not happening.

The earthly temple is over but there is still the heavenly one.

Yep. In which Christ SITS. A chair, in the earthly Temple, was a prohibited piece of furniture. Why? Because the work of the priests was never done - they were continually offering up sacrifices for the people.

Christ SITS in the heavenly Temple.

Why?

Because His Work is finished:

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. (from Heb. 10)​

The law still remains as it is clearly written and attested to in these posts.

Yep. The Law still has a purpose - to bring mankind to Christ. Those who come to Christ die to the Law and are no longer under its supervision (see Rom. 7:4-6, Gal. 3).

The Law is good if one uses it properly.

The Law is established for the purpose for which it was given. See 1 Tim. 1, Gal. 3, Rom. 3 and 5, and others.

Law is the power of sin (1 Cor. 15:56). It was given for the unrighteous, not the righteous.

---> What does Scripture say about those who are in Christ?
---> Are they righteous or unrighteous?
---> Is the Law for the righteous or the unrighteous?

Is there a temple in heaven?

Heb 8

1 Here is the whole point of what we have been saying: we do have just such a cohen gadol as has been described. And he does sit at the right hand of HaG'dulah in heaven.d 2 There he serves in the Holy Place, that is, in the true Tent of Meeting, the one erected not by human beings but by ADONAI. 3 For every cohen gadol is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so this cohen gadol too has to have something he can offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he wouldn't be a cohen at all, since there already are cohanim offering the gifts required by the Torah. 5 But what they are serving is only a copy and shadow of the heavenly original; for when Moshe was about to erect the Tent, God warned him, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern you were shown on the mountain."

So we know that the sanctuary given to Moses was a copy of the one in heaven where Jesus is High priest.

The only reason a sacrifice and priest was needed was because the 10 commandments were broken.

So if the earthy was a copy of the heavenly that means the 10 commandments are in heaven, can this be varified?

Yes indeed as John was shown in vision:

Rev 11
19Then the Temple of God in heaven was opened, and the Ark of the Covenant was seen in his Temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake and violent hail.

and again in this place:

Rev 15
5 After this I looked, and the sanctuary (that is, the Tent of Witness in heaven) was opened, 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean bright linen and had gold belts around their chests.

If Jesus is your high priest still then the law still applies, for without a law there is no need for a priest or a temple in heaven.

The law and the prophets teach us of heavenly truths, part of those heavenly truths are the 10 commandments.

If Jesus is your High Priest, then you are DEAD to the Law. Regardless of where the physical Ten Commandments are, if you are in Christ, you have been crucified with Christ, buried and raised with Him unto New Life (Gal. 2:19-21, Rom. 7:4-6, 2 Cor. 5:16-21, Eph. 2).

Jesus, being of the Tribe of Judah, cannot legally mediate the Old Covenant.

You say that unless the Law still applies, there would be no need for a priest of a temple in heaven. Yet the Scriptures say that the following is the role of Christ, of the Tribe of Judah, our Perfect, Permanent High Priest in Heaven - very different than the role of earthly priests, of the Tribe of Levi:

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar.

14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared:

“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”


18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”


22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

-JGIG

 

[Hizikyah]

Done Away?

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

So growing up I was told this is where Jesus did away/did so you didn't have to the Law....

However when I got older and read for myself I realized this was the exact proof that the Law had no been done away.

but to fulfill them

Unless heaven and earth passes away

until all things are perfected

These three must be before the Law can be done away/destroyed/etc.

Have they all happened?


Matt 5:17-18, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

So lets walk through this;

"Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them"

"but to fulfill them"

So I'm told yep He fulfilled everything thus the Law (Instructions) of Yah are "destroyed/done away"....

So the first thing I find odd is the fact that He said 2 times, He DID NOT come to destroy he Law/prophets....

But lets look at "but to fulfill them"

Has He fulfilled everything written in the Law and the prophets that is for Him to fulfill?

There is a prophecy that says Yahshua (Jesus) will return, He has not YET fulfilled this;

Revelation 19:13-15:, "And He was wrapped in a tallit dipped in blood, and the Name of Him is called: Yahshua--The Salvation of Yahweh. And the armies in heaven clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him upon white horses, And out of His mouth goes a sharp, two-edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations; and He will rule over them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty Yahweh."

So we can CLEARLY see He has not yet fulfilled ALL the Law and prophets, and you know what part of the Law He has not yet fulfilled? Judgement. (Came as a Lamb, returns as a Lion.)

These are Yahshua's (Jesus) words;

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

I know I know "JUSTIFIED BY WORKSSSSS!!!!!!" LOL, these are the WORDS OF THE SAVIOR.

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

"Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

Has heaven and earth passed away? I will give you a minute to look out your window.......

No? Still there? So according to HIM, not me, Him, nothing will pass from the Law. (the real Sacifice is complete, and the Pristhood has taken on it true form, as Yahshua is the High Priest now.)

When will heaven and earth pass? Does Scripture give us a hint? Thank Yah, it does;

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.

Since He says, "Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

So the prophecy of heaven and earth "passing" is not yet fulfilled, but clearly written, so how have the Law been thrown out?

A few more supporting verses;

Isayah 66:21-24, "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

"will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected"

"until all things are perfected"

Have all things been perfected?

Is there still sin and death? Yeah? Then how have ALL things been perfected?

This is the perfection of all things;

Revelation 21:4-8 And Yahweh will wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there will be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor will there be any more pain, for the former things have passed away. And He Who sat upon the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me: Write, for these words are true and faithful.And He said to me: It is done! I am Aleph and Tau, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things; and I will be his Father, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and worshipers of false gods, and all liars, will have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone--which is the second death."

 

[JGIG]

Done Away?

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

He who?

What Law is in place now?

The Law connected to the Old Covenant or the Law connected to the New Covenant?

Remember Whose Priesthood we're under . . .

-JGIG

 

[Hizikyah]

Done Away?

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

Deuteronomy 13:1-5

If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, “Let us go after other gods” (which you have not known) “and let us serve them”;you shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or to that dreamer of dreams; for Yahweh your Strength is testing you, to know whether you love Yahweh your Strength with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after Yahweh your Strength, fear him, keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and you shall serve Him, and cling to Him. That prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death, because he has spoken rebellion against Yahweh your Strength, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to draw you aside out of the way which Yahweh your Strength commanded you to walk in. So you shall remove the evil from among you."

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Deuteronomy 6:5, "And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh."

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

 

[Hizikyah]

Done Away?

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

He who?

What Law is in place now?

The Law connected to the Old Covenant or the Law connected to the New Covenant?

Remember Whose Priesthood we're under . . .

-JGIG

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

2 Thessalonians 2:7, "7 For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan..."

What Law is in place now?
The Law connected to the Old Covenant or the Law connected to the New Covenant?
Remember Whose Priesthood we're under . . .

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

"hang all the Law "

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

"all other commandments"