don't be overrighteous

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,091
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#21
see that's just sticking a person's interpretation of the meaning into the text as tho their commentary is equally scripture.

which is what I hate about the amplified versions. none of those parenthetical insertions are in the literal text.

Unless the translation is commenting on what words mean ormay mean from original texts, it is wrong to give opinion-based interpretations of any scripture unless the person offering that opinion is there for dialogue. If that person is not there, it may as well be engraved in stone….there is no opportunity for discussion..
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,720
6,384
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#22
Unless the translation is commenting on what words mean ormay mean from original texts, it is wrong to give opinion-based interpretations of any scripture unless the person offering that opinion is there for dialogue. If that person is not there, it may as well be engraved in stone….there is no opportunity for discussion..
I really don't like the amplified even when it's just inserting synonyms and alternate definitions. to me it severely interrupts the flow of thought and the cadence of the text, and tends toward commentary inserted as tho scripture. as in the case of this verse, that's not alternate translation they are inserting, it's clearly interpretation. I don't think that belongs in-line in the text.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,091
3,011
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#23
I really don't like the amplified even when it's just inserting synonyms and alternate definitions. to me it severely interrupts the flow of thought and the cadence of the text, and tends toward commentary inserted as tho scripture. as in the case of this verse, that's not alternate translation they are inserting, it's clearly interpretation. I don't think that belongs in-line in the text.
When I first came to be convinced by the Holy Spirit, I read the Word without reading any thing other than the text of the Word with prayer

It was only after a few years of reading through the Word in various versions that I began to look into language influence in translations, but I readinthe original language first, that is, of the Old Testament.

When I would look into anytig that even began to look a bit wonky I found the Holy Spirit had justified my suspicons and settled all.

I know v ry little of the entire Word but what I do not feel I know, I believe. Jesus leads all who are of the Spirit but I do not thnk He is impressed by the intellectual approach to any of the writings.

Keep up the good works……...Al blelssings in Yeshua...j
 
L

LPT

Guest
#24
Judges 14

14 So he said to them:

“Out of the eater came something to eat,

and out of the strong came something sweet.”
I posted this but I guess no one caught on, but Samson is one example of the OP question.
 
Sep 27, 2018
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#25
i agree, as much as it may be true that we should not be self righteous, it doesn't appear to be at all in line with the words of the text. this isn't what Solomon is saying here.
Are you self righteous?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,203
2,711
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#28
Verse 20 offers some insight....... :)

For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Here's some info to consider

Ecclesiastes 7:15-18


If one misjudges in the manner of the paradox described here and therefore reacts wrongly, the effect could lead to one of two possible spiritual extremes. Thus, Solomon gives his cautions.

Perhaps these possible alternatives can be illustrated this way: Imagine a horizontal line drawn across a blank sheet of paper. Both the beginning of the line on the left and the end of the line on the right represent extreme reactions as well as the results produced should a person make wrong choices within the trial.

One can react radically to the left, becoming completely liberal, by choosing simply to give up. The result would be spiritual death. The other extreme reaction would be to choose to turn sharply right, becoming righteous over much, and the bad fruit also produces spiritual death.

Why? Because either extreme is rebellion against God's grace. In Psalm 73, Asaph neither gave up nor attempted to become super-righteous so that God would be impressed and owe him the blessing of relieving the pressures of his suffering. He chose a path right down the middle, to trust God.

Turning to the right to become over-righteous is the choice we should be more concerned about. Why? Because most of the truly converted will not simply give up. They may become weary and confused, but they will not walk away from God's mercy.



John W. Ritenbaugh
Ecclesiastes and Christian Living (Part Twelve): Paradox, Conclusion


John Gill's Commentary says

Ecclesiastes 7:16
Be not righteous over much

This is not meant of true and real righteousness, even moral righteousness, a man cannot be too holy or too righteous; but of a show and ostentation of righteousness, and of such who would be thought to be more righteous and holy than others, and therefore despise those who, as they imagine, do not come up to them; and are very rigid and censorious in their judgment of others, and very severe in their reproofs of them; and, that they may appear very righteous persons, will do more than what the law requires of them to do, even works of supererogation, as the Pharisees formerly, and Papists now, pretend, and abstain from the lawful use of things which God has given to be enjoyed; and macerate their bodies by abstinence, fastings, pilgrimages, penance, scourges, and the like, as the Eremites among the Christians, and the Turks, as Aben Ezra on the place observes; and many there be, who, by an imprudent zeal for what they judge right, and which sometimes are mere trifles, and by unseasonable reproofs for what is wrong, expose themselves to resentment and danger. Some understand this of political and punitive justice, exercising it in too strict and rigorous a manner, according to the maxim, "summum jus saepe summa injuria est" F23; and Schultens F24, from the use of the word in the Arabic language, renders it, "be not too rigid"; and others, in a contrary sense, of too much mercy and pity to offenders. So the Midrash; and Jarchi illustrates it by the case of Saul, who had mercy on the wicked, and spared Agag. The Targum is,

``be not over righteous at a time that a sinner is found guilty of slaughter in thy court of judicature, that thou shouldest spare and not kill him;''​
neither make thyself over wise;
above what is written, or pretend to be wiser than others. So the Arabic version, "show not too much wisdom"; do not affect, as not to be more righteous than others, so not more wise, by finding fault with present times, or with the dispensations of Providence, or with the manners and conduct of men; setting up for a critic and a censurer of men and things; or do not pry into things, and seek after a knowledge of them, which are out of your reach, and beyond your capacity; why shouldest thou destroy thyself?
either by living too strictly and abstemiously, or by studying too closely, or by behaving in such a manner to men, as that they will seek thy destruction, and bring it on thee: or "why shouldest thou", or "whereby", or "lest, thou shouldest be stupid" F25; lose thy sense and reason, as persons who study the knowledge of things they have not a capacity for: or why shouldest thou become foolish in the eyes of all men by thy conduct and behaviour? or, "why shouldest thou be desolate" F26; alone, and nobody care to have any conversation and acquaintance with thee?

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2K...-16.html/RK=2/RS=5EO5XC_QZ1v.C.wbuCa_9AyL09Q-
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#29
Be not righteous over much;
neither make thyself over wise:
why shouldest thou destroy thyself?
(Ecclesiastes 7:16)
what does this mean?
Maybe this is in reference to "ignorance is bliss?" Consider how righteous men in times past have been vexed in their spirit at their surroundings (Lot, for example). Or, even in wisdom you see acts of foolishness and are perplexed, bothered, or even make judgments (improperly, high and mighty). To "bring in abundance" (over much) righteousness or wisdom, could be a double edged sword. In one respect they are both good to have, and yet in another one ought to be careful ("judge not lest thou be judged").

Judge men and you might make yourself a hypocrite, pride comes before the fall, right? In the next verse (17) it says to not be "over much wicked", and I'm sure that isn't an encouragement to be wicked at all, only pointing to its consequences being an early death. Likewise, what are the, possible, consequences of being "overly" righteous or wise, or even excelling in the two?
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
495
84
28
#30
Be not righteous over much;
neither make thyself over wise:
why shouldest thou destroy thyself?
(Ecclesiastes 7:16)
what does this mean?
My perspective is that you then have to live up to those standards, and if you don't, you're toast.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,575
1,864
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#31
Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Perhaps this is how Jesus read that verse?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,408
584
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#32
Maybe this is in reference to "ignorance is bliss?" Consider how righteous men in times past have been vexed in their spirit at their surroundings (Lot, for example). Or, even in wisdom you see acts of foolishness and are perplexed, bothered, or even make judgments (improperly, high and mighty). To "bring in abundance" (over much) righteousness or wisdom, could be a double edged sword. In one respect they are both good to have, and yet in another one ought to be careful ("judge not lest thou be judged").

Judge men and you might make yourself a hypocrite, pride comes before the fall, right? In the next verse (17) it says to not be "over much wicked", and I'm sure that isn't an encouragement to be wicked at all, only pointing to its consequences being an early death. Likewise, what are the, possible, consequences of being "overly" righteous or wise, or even excelling in the two?
In summary, it is asking us to consider the consequences of exceeding in righteousness and wisdom. Just as there is a consequence of exceeding in wickedness (verse 17). Almost cautionary.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,720
6,384
113
#33
Maybe this is in reference to "ignorance is bliss?" Consider how righteous men in times past have been vexed in their spirit at their surroundings (Lot, for example). Or, even in wisdom you see acts of foolishness and are perplexed, bothered, or even make judgments (improperly, high and mighty). To "bring in abundance" (over much) righteousness or wisdom, could be a double edged sword. In one respect they are both good to have, and yet in another one ought to be careful ("judge not lest thou be judged").

Judge men and you might make yourself a hypocrite, pride comes before the fall, right? In the next verse (17) it says to not be "over much wicked", and I'm sure that isn't an encouragement to be wicked at all, only pointing to its consequences being an early death. Likewise, what are the, possible, consequences of being "overly" righteous or wise, or even excelling in the two?
it doesn't seem to me to fit Solomons character to encourage ignorance. all over Proverbs he says get understanding, get knowledge.

here in ecclesiastes he says several things about how wisdom results in sadness: that the heart of the wise is in the house of mourning, that as wisdom increases so does sorrow. that part is actually easy for me to understand 'why destroy yourself?'

but somehow being *too righteous* is the same, and could destroy you in some way. this is the part that to me is difficult concept to grasp.

right now I am thinking perhaps Trofimus & Hungry are on the right track, which is, in a way, as someone else said a bit like being a Pharisee. to be consumed by cares of righteousness to the point one has no joy, and no thankfulness to God...?

but still considering :)
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,408
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#34
it doesn't seem to me to fit Solomons character to encourage ignorance. all over Proverbs he says get understanding, get knowledge.

here in ecclesiastes he says several things about how wisdom results in sadness: that the heart of the wise is in the house of mourning, that as wisdom increases so does sorrow. that part is actually easy for me to understand 'why destroy yourself?'

but somehow being *too righteous* is the same, and could destroy you in some way. this is the part that to me is difficult concept to grasp.

right now I am thinking perhaps Trofimus & Hungry are on the right track, which is, in a way, as someone else said a bit like being a Pharisee. to be consumed by cares of righteousness to the point one has no joy, and no thankfulness to God...?

but still considering :)
I am not saying he is encouraging ignorance, only it made me think of that saying. Once one is "enlightened", if you will, there is no going back. To have a healthy conscience means that you're sensitive to the subjective morality of the world (like Lot). As you said, with wisdom comes consequences, and such sorrow can be for the people who make bad decisions, regretful decisions.

In a like manner, to be righteous, to know the peace of walking in the light, and see the fruit of sin, too causes sorrow. As God said to Israel, "I set before you life and good, and death and evil." Choose life, right? I think both wisdom and righteousness, excelling in them (as the verse suggests), carry with it a responsibility.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,408
584
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#36
right now I am thinking perhaps Trofimus & Hungry are on the right track, which is, in a way, as someone else said a bit like being a Pharisee. to be consumed by cares of righteousness to the point one has no joy, and no thankfulness to God...?
I am not getting a self-righteousness interpretation from these verses. It really does feel like a cautionary tale of sorts, as it describes the result of exceeding in wickedness leading to an early death (in verse 17). You can't really take it as a command (to not be over much righteous or wise) because the following verse says to be not over much wicked, and we know Solomon isn't encouraging wickedness (as if its okay to have a little). He is offering wisdom, giving caution to those seeking wisdom and righteousness, or practicing wickedness.

PS: It could be both...
 
Sep 27, 2018
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#37
I am not getting a self-righteousness interpretation from these verses. It really does feel like a cautionary tale of sorts, as it describes the result of exceeding in wickedness leading to an early death (in verse 17). You can't really take it as a command (to not be over much righteous or wise) because the following verse says to be not over much wicked, and we know Solomon isn't encouraging wickedness (as if its okay to have a little). He is offering wisdom, giving caution to those seeking wisdom and righteousness, or practicing wickedness.

PS: It could be both...
How do you know if you are being self righteous?
 
L

LPT

Guest
#38
Samson may or may not be a good example, but I wonder why God gave Samson power to kill himself.