Dropping this nugget on forgiveness

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Oct 19, 2020
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#21
What is sad is you hold adultry up high and do not place in the same category of all sin

That adulterer is deserving of death
yet so is the one who tells a white lie. The one who steels a cookee the one who knows to do right but decides to not do it

Stop judging the adulterer and get on your ones and confess your own sin which makes you just as worthy as he us


I used Adultery because we know in the Book of Acts it is presented to us by the Council overseen by Jame's, with the Disciples now Apostles, as a emphasis along with all sexual sins to [NewBorn Gentile Believers]. But to think Adultery is greater than murder, lying, stealing, destroying a good persons reputation and so forth when they are all equal in the category of SIN is silliness.
 
Oct 19, 2020
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#22
I wasn't thinking of anything as serious as adultery.

The OP suggested "If you have to ask for forgiveness once you’re saved, Jesus died in vain. "

I was just framing the idea of relationship with God in a picture of marriage.
We don't say our marriage is in vain because we ask for forgiveness for having done something wrong to the person we married years ago. It's the right thing to do in the marriage relationship.

Agreed!
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#23
I used Adultery because we know in the Book of Acts it is presented to us by the Council overseen by Jame's, with the Disciples now Apostles, as a emphasis along with all sexual sins to [NewBorn Gentile Believers]. But to think Adultery is greater than murder, lying, stealing, destroying a good persons reputation and so forth when they are all equal in the category of SIN is silliness.
Adultry is no more a death sentancee than lieing is

Remember as Jesus sad in the sermon on the Mount, if you even look at a woman with list you have commited adultry

Which means you have basically condemned almost all men

When we say an adulterer will lose salvation, but we are ok because our sins are not that bad, we are basically saying we are better than them

This is not true, we are just as guilty as them
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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#24
If you have to ask for forgiveness once you’re saved, Jesus died in vain.

Let it sink in, marinade, and toss that baby on the grill! Oh sorry... we aren’t cooking, that’s for sinners (Hell 😅😆). I better stop, lol. I can hear the elongated shocked “wows.”

In all seriousness, and forgive me for the perceivable crudeness in that joke, what we have to understand is that Jesus died once and for all. He paid the penalty for sin and granted us the remission of our sins. We are forgiven. How else do the lost become saved today?

By the same shed blood of Jesus 2000 years ago. It still applies, to pay the penalty for their sin and grant forgiveness. Likewise, our sins (believers) too are washed in the blood of Christ. Scripture says that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission.” So it’s Jesus’ blood or it’s nothing. We are forgiven or we aren’t. We are. Thanks to the blood of the Lamb. Praise God. 🙌
So to ask forgiveness is a action that suggest jesus died in vain? Interesting....
Now ben we are friends but I have to challenge you on this. Can you give me a few scriptures or examples of your conclusion?

Thanks
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#25
Adultry is no more a death sentancee than lieing is

Remember as Jesus sad in the sermon on the Mount, if you even look at a woman with list you have commited adultry

Which means you have basically condemned almost all men

When we say an adulterer will lose salvation, but we are ok because our sins are not that bad, we are basically saying we are better than them

This is not true, we are just as guilty as them
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone..."
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#26
So to ask forgiveness is a action that suggest jesus died in vain? Interesting....
Now ben we are friends but I have to challenge you on this. Can you give me a few scriptures or examples of your conclusion?

Thanks
Please read my previous post in this thread if you haven’t already: https://christianchat.com/threads/dropping-this-nugget-on-forgiveness.197334/post-4488203

The suggestion is rather that we don’t have to ask for forgiveness because we are already forgiven. This does not negate the benefit of transparency before God (such as confessing a struggle and getting to the root of the sin with the Lord).

Scripture similarly says that if Jesus didn’t raise from the dead, our faith is vain. It is to no effect. If Jesus’ sacrifice was to pay the penalty for all sin (and grant remission; which it did), then there is no need to ask for forgiveness for the sin, judicially, otherwise nothing was gained in His death and resurrection (as if we had to seek forgiveness).

There would still be the problem of sin and death as a result. He, as it says in Hebrews, would have to suffer since the beginning of time (“the foundations of the world”) again and again if His sacrifice was like the blood of bulls and goats (common), but His blood is eternal (hence one sacrifice for all time, for all sin).

To be put simply:

A.) Jesus died to forgive all sin
B.) All sin has been forgiven through the blood of the Lamb
C.) Therefore there is no need for further seeking of forgiveness
D.) Because Jesus through His bloodshed forgave all sin

If we are seeking forgiveness for eternal salvation through sin confession, we have looked past Jesus’ sacrifice which granted for us the remission of our sins. Hence, making His death vain if we seek forgiveness outside of it. One might argue we “apply the blood” through sin confession, but we know that such an application is by faith in Christ. Christ and Him crucified. Not through the act of sin confession as a remedial means of atonement. We place our faith in Jesus Christ, what He did on our behalf (died for our sins and rose on the third day), and we have been forgiven and given eternal life.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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#27
Please read my previous post in this thread if you haven’t already: https://christianchat.com/threads/dropping-this-nugget-on-forgiveness.197334/post-4488203

The suggestion is rather that we don’t have to ask for forgiveness because we are already forgiven. This does not negate the benefit of transparency before God (such as confessing a struggle and getting to the root of the sin with the Lord).

Scripture similarly says that if Jesus didn’t raise from the dead, our faith is vain. It is to no effect. If Jesus’ sacrifice was to pay the penalty for all sin (and grant remission; which it did), then there is no need to ask for forgiveness for the sin, judicially, otherwise nothing was gained in His death and resurrection (as if we had to seek forgiveness).

There would still be the problem of sin and death as a result. He, as it says in Hebrews, would have to suffer since the beginning of time (“the foundations of the world”) again and again if His sacrifice was like the blood of bulls and goats (common), but His blood is eternal (hence one sacrifice for all time, for all sin).

To be put simply:

A.) Jesus died to forgive all sin
B.) All sin has been forgiven through the blood of the Lamb
C.) Therefore there is no need for further seeking of forgiveness
D.) Because Jesus through His bloodshed forgave all sin

If we are seeking forgiveness for eternal salvation through sin confession, we have looked past Jesus’ sacrifice which granted for us the remission of our sins. Hence, making His death vain if we seek forgiveness outside of it. One might argue we “apply the blood” through sin confession, but we know that such an application is by faith in Christ. Christ and Him crucified. Not through the act of sin confession as a remedial means of atonement. We place our faith in Jesus Christ, what He did on our behalf (died for our sins and rose on the third day), and we have been forgiven and given eternal life.
Ok gotcha...I agree.
But I think if you exploit this the full council of God on sin in a believers life has to be addressed.
Some will think that this is a get out of jail free card.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#28
I think he was referring to those who think asking forgiveness is required or the covenant is broken and a certificate divorce is given
I could be wrong though
That’s actually a very wise response in respect to Lucy’s analogy. We are in a covenant of grace, a covenant whereby God does not hold our sins against us because Jesus paid their penalty. Sin does not break the covenant, in fact we might say it’s covered in the details of the covenant. Forgiven. 😁

This by no means is a license to sin. We are no longer slaves to sin, but righteousness. Reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God. Nice response EG.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#30
Ok gotcha...I agree.
But I think if you exploit this the full council of God on sin in a believers life has to be addressed.
Some will think that this is a get out of jail free card.
Most assuredly! We see in scripture the Apostle Paul having to tell people who they are in Christ in letters to the churches. They are righteous in Christ. We see scripture encourages us to carefully admonish a brother or sister in Christ if we see them in sin. Why? Because we no longer have a proclivity to sin, but the power of choice. We are to be gracious and meek in our correction, done in love. For their well-being and even of those on the receiving end of their wrong.

Repentance is still at play. It’s not anything goes. We are being sanctified by God, growing in righteousness and love. The Lord developing our character.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#31
Adultery!

The Disciples told the Gentiles that sexual immorality was [forbidden] once they accepted Christ as Lord and Savior.

What does Adultery do?
Creates Victims.

So, if a spouse commits Adultery, that is a [SIN] to God, a act to harm your spouse and children, and anyone else connected.

But if I am [saved] by accepting Christ, then I commit Adultery, it's too hell with God, the spouse, the children-family-friends because I am "Forgiven." Those destroyed lives don't deserve my Forgiveness of them because I am SAVED! Heck, they don't even need me to be remorseful. They should ask me for Forgiveness. I am SAVED!

I don't buy it!
Being forgiven does not mean we don’t make amends for our wrongs. If I steal a couple dollars from your piggy bank 🐷, while I may be forgiven by God, I still owe you restitution.

We even have examples in scripture where God won’t even hear the prayers of a husband who is at odds with his wife and needs to reconcile with her. Or God won’t receive the offering of a man without first making peace with his brother.

Forgiveness does not get rid of personal responsibility and accountability. God wants us to walk in love practically as well.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#35
Yes he is, I have missed him
Aww, thanks EG. How have you been? Anything interesting going on in your life or walk with the Lord (feel free to PM me if you’d like)?

Side note:
What is the current climate here at CC nowadays? Any trend I should be aware of or teaching? Or is everything pretty relaxed around here?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#36
If you have to ask for forgiveness once you’re saved, Jesus died in vain.

Let it sink in, marinade, and toss that baby on the grill! Oh sorry... we aren’t cooking, that’s for sinners (Hell 😅😆). I better stop, lol. I can hear the elongated shocked “wows.”

In all seriousness, and forgive me for the perceivable crudeness in that joke, what we have to understand is that Jesus died once and for all. He paid the penalty for sin and granted us the remission of our sins. We are forgiven. How else do the lost become saved today?

By the same shed blood of Jesus 2000 years ago. It still applies, to pay the penalty for their sin and grant forgiveness. Likewise, our sins (believers) too are washed in the blood of Christ. Scripture says that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission.” So it’s Jesus’ blood or it’s nothing. We are forgiven or we aren’t. We are. Thanks to the blood of the Lamb. Praise God. 🙌
While it is true that we as believers in Christ have been forgiven for our sins, past, present and future, that does not mean that we as believers are not to confess our sins and ask to be forgiven. This is an Arnold Murray teaching. He tells his followers that when they commit sin not to think about it or ask for forgiveness, stating that our heavenly Father will punish us for it. Consider Jesus example below of how to pray:

"Our Father, who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.

Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

The above is a basic example from the Lord as to how we ought to pray. Notice that within the prayer is the request for our daily food, as well as forgiveness for our debts, i.e. our sins. Should we also have given thanks only once for our food after we became believers and then never again?

Is the prayer above a one-time event, because it includes 'forgive us our debts?' And what about the following?

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

In the scripture above, John is speaking to those who are already believers. He's says, when we sin (as believers) if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

According to the Lord's example in prayer, I ask daily, whether in deed or in thought, for the forgiveness of my sins.

we confess our sins to God—not to maintain our salvation, but to bring ourselves back into close fellowship with God who loves us and has already forgiven us.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#37
If you have to ask for forgiveness once you’re saved, Jesus died in vain.
That is completely false. Where do you come up with these bizarre ideas?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#38
Aww, thanks EG. How have you been? Anything interesting going on in your life or walk with the Lord (feel free to PM me if you’d like)?

Side note:
What is the current climate here at CC nowadays? Any trend I should be aware of or teaching? Or is everything pretty relaxed around here?
Things have been going great brother, have been blessed dearly.

If you want to argue calvinism your in the right spot, been bad, in fact few refs got banned because it, it has changed a lot in here. Maybe you can help us with some edifying content. I have been off and on myself. Not much really that I have seen worth discussing lately
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#39
While it is true that we as believers in Christ have been forgiven for our sins, past, present and future, that does not mean that we as believers are not to confess our sins and ask to be forgiven. This is an Arnold Murray teaching. He tells his followers that when they commit sin not to think about it or ask for forgiveness, stating that our heavenly Father will punish us for it. Consider Jesus example below of how to pray:

"Our Father, who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.

Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

The above is a basic example from the Lord as to how we ought to pray. Notice that within the prayer is the request for our daily food, as well as forgiveness for our debts, i.e. our sins. Should we also have given thanks only once for our food after we became believers and then never again?

Is the prayer above a one-time event, because it includes 'forgive us our debts?' And what about the following?

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

In the scripture above, John is speaking to those who are already believers. He's says, when we sin (as believers) if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

According to the Lord's example in prayer, I ask daily, whether in deed or in thought, for the forgiveness of my sins.

we confess our sins to God—not to maintain our salvation, but to bring ourselves back into close fellowship with God who loves us and has already forgiven us.
So you are agreeing that we don’t confess our sins in order to be forgiven judicially or for salvation? Yes, you said exactly that in your last paragraph. “Not to maintain salvation.”

Ephesians 4:32
“Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Colossians 3:13
“Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

We clearly see that God has already forgiven us, and out of that revelation of forgiveness we do not hypocritically lack forgiveness towards others. See here in the NT it is not an ultimatum of forgive or else, but an encouragement to do so based in experiencing God’s forgiveness.

Now, am I pompously disagreeing with Jesus, our Lord and Savior? No, I am rightly dividing God’s word of truth. Jesus said many things people had to do or else they wouldn’t be forgiven. He said if your eye caused you to sin, cut it out for it is better to go into Heaven maimed than to go to Hell whole.

He made clear God’s righteous and perfect standard (under Law); a standard we cannot of ourselves keep. And to suggest that a person who holds a grudge and dies is on their way to Hell is a scary thought and antithetical to the new covenant of grace.

We forgive now out of love and not obligation. We understand and have received God’s forgiveness, and being so moved by this gracious act we find ourselves being encouraged to also forgive. Again, not out of a necessity to do so as to avoid punishment, but as a means of walking out the love God has poured out on and in us (I.e., a new heart).

We must keep in mind, Heaven is not earned. Salvation is not earned, it is a free gift. Not a debt God owes us for our works. If we had to forgive people in order to be saved, salvation would not be dependent upon the sacrifice of Christ, but our willingness to forgive others.

The merit then would be our surrender, and not Christ’s surrendering of His will to die on the cross for our sake. Faith in Jesus would be moot, because the hardness of someone’s heart towards a great offense could then override the blood of Christ that supposedly cleanses them of all sin. Does the blood of Christ not cover a lack of forgiveness? Is it described as “unpardonable” such as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? What shall we say then on forgiveness?

Forgiveness is perfected by the Spirit, in the heart of a believer. We can so easily forgive because God has forgiven us much, and as a result we love much.

Maybe we can conclude then that forgiveness may be testimony to the authenticity of a born again Christian, whilst not being the deciding factor? Something indelible in the believer as a work of God. To consider God would even have us bless our enemies.

Ultimately, we are saved by grace through faith.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#40
That is completely false. Where do you come up with these bizarre ideas?
I hope you read my responses throughout this thread to see where I am coming from.