Ephesians 4:11-16
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That's your interpretation of the matter, it's obviously not mine. Claiming to be a son of Caleb (or Joshua), doesn't make us one. You seem to be relying on your interpretation of scripture as being correct. I've tried to have a relationship with the Spirit behind scripture, and rely on His direct counsel rather than rely on my own interpretation and understanding, because I realised my own capacity for understanding is limited.
The Bible says that the fallen angels and those princes and dominions and royal-born entities in the heavenly places will recognize mature believers through the wisdom they display (Eph. 3:8-10) but that human beings on earth will recognize genuine believers by their expressive or practical love not for their neighbors or for the world but for their fellow believers (John 13:34-35).
christians who are constantly arguing with or attacking each other don't have love. If no one recognizes, acknowledges, or admits it, the principalities and powers certainly do. I trust their discernment better than that of biased christians who choose to believe that they are doing everything right. If you believe you're living your life the right way, then you have no need to be wrestling over this topic. Continue living your life. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything because no one can convince me of anything. Like the Pharaoh who refused to let Israel go free, people whose hearts are hard can see the truth; they just refuse to.
It appears apparent to me that Religion has hardened you. Jesus, on the other hand, makes people softer, more pliable, wiser. He doesn't make people 'christians'; He makes people 'good'. Religion's effect is the opposite and makes people self-righteous rather than righteous. As carnal humans, we naturally innately or secretly (or latently, whichever word you choose) 'hate' other human beings (this is evidenced in Cain's killing of Abel and his attitude about it). When religion comes along, the effect it has is like one who gave us the authority or confidence to hate people openly. (My definition of 'hate' here is not the dictionary definition but the biblical definition according to 1John 3:10-18.)
In man's economy, we're ruled by our biases, prejudices, ignorance, and pride when it comes to choosing who is and isn't worthy of this or that. But in God's economy, He gives not to those who are deserving or 'worthy' but to those who draw near to Him without with childlike, not hardened, hearts. If you agree with the following passages below, then you should be willing and eager to take an internal look at yourself, your life, and especially your heart "for out of it are the issues of life" (Proverbs 4:23). God gives wisdom and understanding and knowledge and discernment and prudence and discretion and insight and revelation to those who want those things from Him-- regardless of their age, status, gender, or station in life-- not to those who don't rely on Him for those things (which is why He chose Jacob and not Esau: Esau, like any normal person, wanted blessings and success and prosperity; Jacob wanted those same things, but he wanted them all to come directly from God).
* I am young in years, and you are very old; therefore I was afraid, and dared not declare my opinion to you. I said, "Age should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom." But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives understanding. Great men are not always wise, nor do the aged always understand justice (Job 32:6-9).
* You, through [obedience to] Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies, for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Your testimonies (or Your opinions) are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Your precepts (Psalm 119:98-100).
* The secret of the LORD is with those who fear Him, and to them He will reveal His [ways] (Ps. 25:14).
* After three days they found [the Child Jesus] in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard Him was amazed at His understanding and His answers (Luke 2:46-47).
* Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight" (Matthew 11:25-26).
christians who are constantly arguing with or attacking each other don't have love. If no one recognizes, acknowledges, or admits it, the principalities and powers certainly do. I trust their discernment better than that of biased christians who choose to believe that they are doing everything right. If you believe you're living your life the right way, then you have no need to be wrestling over this topic. Continue living your life. I'm not interested in convincing you of anything because no one can convince me of anything. Like the Pharaoh who refused to let Israel go free, people whose hearts are hard can see the truth; they just refuse to.
It appears apparent to me that Religion has hardened you. Jesus, on the other hand, makes people softer, more pliable, wiser. He doesn't make people 'christians'; He makes people 'good'. Religion's effect is the opposite and makes people self-righteous rather than righteous. As carnal humans, we naturally innately or secretly (or latently, whichever word you choose) 'hate' other human beings (this is evidenced in Cain's killing of Abel and his attitude about it). When religion comes along, the effect it has is like one who gave us the authority or confidence to hate people openly. (My definition of 'hate' here is not the dictionary definition but the biblical definition according to 1John 3:10-18.)
In man's economy, we're ruled by our biases, prejudices, ignorance, and pride when it comes to choosing who is and isn't worthy of this or that. But in God's economy, He gives not to those who are deserving or 'worthy' but to those who draw near to Him without with childlike, not hardened, hearts. If you agree with the following passages below, then you should be willing and eager to take an internal look at yourself, your life, and especially your heart "for out of it are the issues of life" (Proverbs 4:23). God gives wisdom and understanding and knowledge and discernment and prudence and discretion and insight and revelation to those who want those things from Him-- regardless of their age, status, gender, or station in life-- not to those who don't rely on Him for those things (which is why He chose Jacob and not Esau: Esau, like any normal person, wanted blessings and success and prosperity; Jacob wanted those same things, but he wanted them all to come directly from God).
* I am young in years, and you are very old; therefore I was afraid, and dared not declare my opinion to you. I said, "Age should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom." But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives understanding. Great men are not always wise, nor do the aged always understand justice (Job 32:6-9).
* You, through [obedience to] Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies, for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Your testimonies (or Your opinions) are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Your precepts (Psalm 119:98-100).
* The secret of the LORD is with those who fear Him, and to them He will reveal His [ways] (Ps. 25:14).
* After three days they found [the Child Jesus] in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard Him was amazed at His understanding and His answers (Luke 2:46-47).
* Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight" (Matthew 11:25-26).
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Yeah, it's not a good system. But no one has the right system down yet. Every system or denomination is flawed. Catholicism has some good traits that christians can use such as that sense of fear or reverence for God. It might not be real among Catholics or Muslims, but it is there. It is not there among christians. We just wanna have fun and ride the coattails of Grace to Heaven without doing any of the work of working out our salvation "with fear and trembling". What a shame.
Jesus said that light is greater than darkness and that darkness can't overcome light. In our world, the darkness is overcoming the light (ie. there is very little witness of Jesus's resurrection, existence, or influence in the churches which, if they were there, would naturally begin to spill out into the world). This simply means, if we at least claim to believe the Bible, that there is no light in the churches. Generally speaking, there is no light in the churches, therefore, the world has a greater impact on the world... and on the churches.
Jesus said that light is greater than darkness and that darkness can't overcome light. In our world, the darkness is overcoming the light (ie. there is very little witness of Jesus's resurrection, existence, or influence in the churches which, if they were there, would naturally begin to spill out into the world). This simply means, if we at least claim to believe the Bible, that there is no light in the churches. Generally speaking, there is no light in the churches, therefore, the world has a greater impact on the world... and on the churches.
Trying to get an argument from this that apostles and prophets have ceased is kind of weak. For one thing, once a foundation is laid to a building, a foundation __can__ be laid again. Just think of lateral expansion, adding some storehouses to the temple, or adding an extra bathroom or nursery to the first floor of a house. You'd need a foundation wouldn't you? There still are missionaries and church planter types going to those who haven't believed the Gospel yet, even those who have not heard it.
Did the Jerusalem church have a foundation? Was it built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets? That church started _before_ Paul was sent.
Did the Jerusalem church have a foundation? Was it built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets? That church started _before_ Paul was sent.
Paul was not one of the twelve according to the qualifications Peter laid out in Acts 1 or his own words in I Corinthians 15. And he wrote scripture. Not only that, but he, Silvanus, and Timothy wrote I Thessalonians and in chapter 2, they referred to themselves as 'apostles of Christ.'
You seem to be under the assumption that apostle=scripture writer. Where do you get that from scripture?
Jesus said to pray the Lord of the harvest to send forth laborers into His harvest. Then Jesus prayed all night on a mountain. When He came down, he designated 12 as apostles and sent them out to preach with instructions to heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils.
In Acts 13, we read that the Spirit spoke to prophets and teachers in Antioch to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which He had called them. After that, scripture begins to call them 'apostles', in Acts 14:4 then in 14:14.
It is true that _some_ apostles wrote scripture. But can you show me the book of Bartholomew or the book of Andrew in the Bible?
You seem to be under the assumption that apostle=scripture writer. Where do you get that from scripture?
Jesus said to pray the Lord of the harvest to send forth laborers into His harvest. Then Jesus prayed all night on a mountain. When He came down, he designated 12 as apostles and sent them out to preach with instructions to heal the sick, raise the dead and cast out devils.
In Acts 13, we read that the Spirit spoke to prophets and teachers in Antioch to separate Barnabas and Saul to the work to which He had called them. After that, scripture begins to call them 'apostles', in Acts 14:4 then in 14:14.
It is true that _some_ apostles wrote scripture. But can you show me the book of Bartholomew or the book of Andrew in the Bible?
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The Bible teaches the Spirit gives the gifts listed in I Corinthians 12 as He wills. Can you show me in the Bible where it says this teaching is no longer true?
Also, your last sentence implies that God cannot heal or do miracles through the gifts. Can you show me in scripture where God's sovereignty is limited in this way? Isn't it presumptuous to assert that God will not or cannot do things if the Bible does not teach these limitations are there?
Honestly your conclusion just sounds like made-up doctrine. I cannot find it in the Bible. Nor can I find anything in scripture that says that the gifts of healing or miracles would be put away. Can you show me scripture to support that?
I also notice that churches still need to be set up and God's word still needs to be communicated, so your line of reasoning makes little sense.
Also, your last sentence implies that God cannot heal or do miracles through the gifts. Can you show me in scripture where God's sovereignty is limited in this way? Isn't it presumptuous to assert that God will not or cannot do things if the Bible does not teach these limitations are there?
Honestly your conclusion just sounds like made-up doctrine. I cannot find it in the Bible. Nor can I find anything in scripture that says that the gifts of healing or miracles would be put away. Can you show me scripture to support that?
I also notice that churches still need to be set up and God's word still needs to be communicated, so your line of reasoning makes little sense.
Where does the Bible teach that miracles were limited to the apostles? Old Testament prophets did miracles before the apostles were born. There is no verse where Jesus said, "Miracles now all come through you guys, now, and your close associates."
Instead, I Corinthians 12 teaches that the Spirit gifts members of the body of Christ with gifts, including 'the working of miracles' as the Spirit wills.
There is also the case of Ananias laying hands on Saul of Tarsus, and Saul being healed of blindness. Saul was way up in Damascus, and we do not know where Ananias was, but the gospel had spread far past Jerusalem. We do not know if Ananias had met the apostles, and there is no indication that he was close friends with them.
What about the two witnesses in Revelation. Are they supposed to be close associates of the Twelve?
Instead, I Corinthians 12 teaches that the Spirit gifts members of the body of Christ with gifts, including 'the working of miracles' as the Spirit wills.
There is also the case of Ananias laying hands on Saul of Tarsus, and Saul being healed of blindness. Saul was way up in Damascus, and we do not know where Ananias was, but the gospel had spread far past Jerusalem. We do not know if Ananias had met the apostles, and there is no indication that he was close friends with them.
What about the two witnesses in Revelation. Are they supposed to be close associates of the Twelve?
Does the 'that which is perfect' passage prove gifts have ceased. Let's look at these verses:
I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
(NKJV)
Before the perfect comes, Paul's understanding and thoughts were like those of a child. During this time, Paul was writing the New Testament.
Those who interpret this passage to mean that once the Bible came, they have perfect understanding are implying that their understanding is so far advanced compared to Paul, and his is like that of a child, and theirs is like that of an adult.
If any of you who hold to this view have ever had the experience of reading Paul's writings as a believer, then months or years later you read those same scriptures and gain understanding that you did not have before... but that Paul clearly had...you disprove your interpretation of this verse. If you are reading Galatians and you suddenly get what Paul is saying in Romans or vice versa, you disprove that interpretation. If Paul when he wrote had understanding you did not have as a new believer, there is a problem with your interpretation of I Corinthians 13.
I Corinthians 13
10 But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
(NKJV)
Before the perfect comes, Paul's understanding and thoughts were like those of a child. During this time, Paul was writing the New Testament.
Those who interpret this passage to mean that once the Bible came, they have perfect understanding are implying that their understanding is so far advanced compared to Paul, and his is like that of a child, and theirs is like that of an adult.
If any of you who hold to this view have ever had the experience of reading Paul's writings as a believer, then months or years later you read those same scriptures and gain understanding that you did not have before... but that Paul clearly had...you disprove your interpretation of this verse. If you are reading Galatians and you suddenly get what Paul is saying in Romans or vice versa, you disprove that interpretation. If Paul when he wrote had understanding you did not have as a new believer, there is a problem with your interpretation of I Corinthians 13.
This is incorrect = "You seem to be under the assumption that apostle=scripture writer."
Paul met the qualification of being an apostle, and imho he was the one whom the LORD chose to replace Judas.
This is my opinion and is inconsequential to the Complete Message of the Holy Spirit, written throughout, beginning in Genesis.
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Peace
Paul met the qualification of being an apostle, and imho he was the one whom the LORD chose to replace Judas.
This is my opinion and is inconsequential to the Complete Message of the Holy Spirit, written throughout, beginning in Genesis.
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Peace
Perfect in the bible's context is mostly referring to completion and maturity, rather than sinlessness or perfection in terms of unblemished.
The understanding isn't perfect understanding on the part of the believer.. but access to the perfect Word of God.. complete and mature.
The knowledge being perfect.. complete.. that is in the scripture.. .. so we have access to perfect knowledge.. and the believer can be complete and mature in applying God's Word to their lives.
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
The 'child' thing.. is of having partial revelation.. not as in inferiority of knowledge. He had the beginning of the New Testament church writings.. not the whole library. We as believers now are blessed to have full access to the whole complete library of the Word of God.
Also-- seeing in a glass dimly.. but then face to face..
What does the bible refer to itself as?
(James 1:23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
(James 1:24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
(James 1:25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The 'face to face' and 'glass' in 1 Corinthians 13 could be the Word of God.
Lastly--- 1 Corinthians 13 passage does not stand alone in explaining cessation of the sign gifts. This passage on it's own doesn't give the full picture. Christians from the continuation and cessation side can both give convincing arguments just based on this passage. There are other parts of the bible.. and key historical points that support cessationism.
peace
The understanding isn't perfect understanding on the part of the believer.. but access to the perfect Word of God.. complete and mature.
The knowledge being perfect.. complete.. that is in the scripture.. .. so we have access to perfect knowledge.. and the believer can be complete and mature in applying God's Word to their lives.
G5046
τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
The 'child' thing.. is of having partial revelation.. not as in inferiority of knowledge. He had the beginning of the New Testament church writings.. not the whole library. We as believers now are blessed to have full access to the whole complete library of the Word of God.
Also-- seeing in a glass dimly.. but then face to face..
What does the bible refer to itself as?
(James 1:23) For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
(James 1:24) For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
(James 1:25) But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The 'face to face' and 'glass' in 1 Corinthians 13 could be the Word of God.
Lastly--- 1 Corinthians 13 passage does not stand alone in explaining cessation of the sign gifts. This passage on it's own doesn't give the full picture. Christians from the continuation and cessation side can both give convincing arguments just based on this passage. There are other parts of the bible.. and key historical points that support cessationism.
peace
This is an important point, because it touches on apostolic authority and the authority of scripture.
Was Peter wrong in Acts 1 when he said that Judas' replacement had to have been with the other apostles from the time of John the Baptist?
Was Paul wrote, when he wrote in inspired scripture in I Corinthians 15 that Jesus appeared to the Twelve before appearing to him. Judas committed suicide, and Matthias was a witness of the resurrection according to Acts 1.
No prophecy is of any private interpretation....how does that apply to coming with a doctrine that Paul replaced Judas, contrary to his own words?
Was Peter wrong in Acts 1 when he said that Judas' replacement had to have been with the other apostles from the time of John the Baptist?
Was Paul wrote, when he wrote in inspired scripture in I Corinthians 15 that Jesus appeared to the Twelve before appearing to him. Judas committed suicide, and Matthias was a witness of the resurrection according to Acts 1.
No prophecy is of any private interpretation....how does that apply to coming with a doctrine that Paul replaced Judas, contrary to his own words?