It is a recognised medical fact that clinical depression, which is not strictly depression as we think of it, can result in a person taking up the opposite views to what they once held. Thus the believer becomes an unbeliever, and so on. Once out of that depression by medical means the person reverts to their original belief. To me it is inconceivable that such a person can be seen as having for a time been in state of lostness simply because they were physically ill (lack of dopamine connection in the brain)
Eternal Salvation Secure?
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You overlook the fact that with regard to Noah and his family YHWH SHUT THEM IN (7.16). Thus they did not have the option of leaving the ark until God opened the door.
With regard to Rahab it was simply physical protection. Her salvation, if she had yet been saved, was not at stake. Thus this is not a parallel situation.
Did the lost sheep not wilfully depart from the shepherd? Yet the Lord sought it UNTIL HE FOUND IT (Luke 15.4). Your position leaves the Saviour and Shepherd out of account. Do you not trust Him to do what He has promised? 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of ALL whom He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the Last Day' (John 6.39).
With regard to Rahab it was simply physical protection. Her salvation, if she had yet been saved, was not at stake. Thus this is not a parallel situation.
Did the lost sheep not wilfully depart from the shepherd? Yet the Lord sought it UNTIL HE FOUND IT (Luke 15.4). Your position leaves the Saviour and Shepherd out of account. Do you not trust Him to do what He has promised? 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of ALL whom He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the Last Day' (John 6.39).
P
Says you.
Where does the Bible say that they couldn't have opened the door? Nowhere. You make it sound as if God locked or sealed the door from without, but the Bible makes no such mention of any such thing. No, it simply says that God closed the door. Besides, Noah let a raven and a dove out of a window, didn't he? Who says that Noah or others couldn't have departed from the same. Also, there's this:
Genesis chapter 8 verse 13
And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
Whatever this covering of the ark was, Noah obviously had the ability to remove it.
Well, I dare to say that many if not most Bible scholars and commentators would disagree with you on this point. The scarlet thread in Rahab's window has types and shadows of Christ's redemptive blood all over it, so I'd dare to say that there was a lot more than simply physical protection involved in relation to her and her family. They were implicitly told that if they ventured outside of the house, then their salvation was no longer promised to them. What do you suppose that that signifies?
Just because Jesus referred to certain people as lost sheep, this does not necessarily mean that they were once following the shepherd and that they later willfully departed from doing the same. The actual account that you referenced was in relation to publicans and sinners who very well may have never truly belonged to the shepherd before, so your attempted point really falls flat. I'm talking about people who were once sheep and later willfully departed.
Where does the Bible say that they couldn't have opened the door? Nowhere. You make it sound as if God locked or sealed the door from without, but the Bible makes no such mention of any such thing. No, it simply says that God closed the door. Besides, Noah let a raven and a dove out of a window, didn't he? Who says that Noah or others couldn't have departed from the same. Also, there's this:
Genesis chapter 8 verse 13
And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
Whatever this covering of the ark was, Noah obviously had the ability to remove it.
Well, I dare to say that many if not most Bible scholars and commentators would disagree with you on this point. The scarlet thread in Rahab's window has types and shadows of Christ's redemptive blood all over it, so I'd dare to say that there was a lot more than simply physical protection involved in relation to her and her family. They were implicitly told that if they ventured outside of the house, then their salvation was no longer promised to them. What do you suppose that that signifies?
Just because Jesus referred to certain people as lost sheep, this does not necessarily mean that they were once following the shepherd and that they later willfully departed from doing the same. The actual account that you referenced was in relation to publicans and sinners who very well may have never truly belonged to the shepherd before, so your attempted point really falls flat. I'm talking about people who were once sheep and later willfully departed.
K
Luke 15:1-7
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
3 Then Jesus told them this parable:
4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them.
^^^(Shows here that the sheep was once part of the flock)^^^
Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’
^^^(Yes the Lord will come after those that get lost, and He works through us to do this)^^^
7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
^^^(Here it shows that the sheep had to repent to be brought back into the flock)^^^
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
3 Then Jesus told them this parable:
4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them.
^^^(Shows here that the sheep was once part of the flock)^^^
Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’
^^^(Yes the Lord will come after those that get lost, and He works through us to do this)^^^
7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
^^^(Here it shows that the sheep had to repent to be brought back into the flock)^^^
P
I definitely agree with you on the repentance part, but I'm still not so sure about the lost sheep having previously belonged to the shepherd part. I mean, Jesus made reference to publicans, right? Was Matthew previously saved before Christ called him? What about Zacchaeus? I'm still not thoroughly convinced.
Jesus Christ keeps them because they suffer from an illness that impairs their judgement. Just as Christ takes unto himself those who are mentally ill or challenged in a way that they cannot make the cognitive decision to surrender to Christ.
Thats not to say that there are not those that go apostate and fall way from the faith.
Thats not to say that there are not those that go apostate and fall way from the faith.
I am one of those who believe in the Scriptural premise that God god desires male leadership in the pulpit and the church governing board.
That does not mean that God can't use a woman as a preacher; because in fact he does.
However, even if a woman preaching were outright sin (and I am not arguing that it is) if she is indeed saved; she is indeed eternally saved.
If a woman is serving as a pastor; and God is displeased with that, it is His responsibility, NOT MINE, to call that to her attention; and He is certainly able to do so.
That does not mean that God can't use a woman as a preacher; because in fact he does.
However, even if a woman preaching were outright sin (and I am not arguing that it is) if she is indeed saved; she is indeed eternally saved.
If a woman is serving as a pastor; and God is displeased with that, it is His responsibility, NOT MINE, to call that to her attention; and He is certainly able to do so.
At the time of Paul Christianity was a new thing but that was then and this is now. It is not from God to deny a woman the gift of the ministry but rather to be a helper in saving the lost. .
As far as salvation who among us can truely read a persons heart.
Let God be her judge and let us only see Gods grace through her to us and not our sinful hateful nature.
As far as salvation who among us can truely read a persons heart.
Let God be her judge and let us only see Gods grace through her to us and not our sinful hateful nature.
Paul doesn't ground his command in his times,
he grounds them in God's authoritative creation order set up by him at the beginning,
just as God set up the order of marriage between a man and a woman at the beginning.
We can choose to obey or disobey God's creation order.
It is not hateful to obey God's word.
Only God knows anyone's heart.
We all get to choose whether or not we will participate in the practice.
he grounds them in God's authoritative creation order set up by him at the beginning,
just as God set up the order of marriage between a man and a woman at the beginning.
We can choose to obey or disobey God's creation order.
It is not hateful to obey God's word.
Only God knows anyone's heart.
We all get to choose whether or not we will participate in the practice.
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G
Some here may see what I see?
This is transference arrogance.
From my tenor here, your theology would condemn a woman pastor.( you believe in loss of salvation for believers who don't at least follow what you obey in the scriptures.)
You believe that a its ok for a woman to be pastor, so she is obeying in your mind and won't lose her salvation.
You transfer loss of salvation arrogance to those who don't believe that women should be pastors over men, when in reality the eternal security believers don't believe in loss of salvation.
If you changed your position and thought women shouldn't be pastors........your theology would condemn them.
This is transference arrogance.
From my tenor here, your theology would condemn a woman pastor.( you believe in loss of salvation for believers who don't at least follow what you obey in the scriptures.)
You believe that a its ok for a woman to be pastor, so she is obeying in your mind and won't lose her salvation.
You transfer loss of salvation arrogance to those who don't believe that women should be pastors over men, when in reality the eternal security believers don't believe in loss of salvation.
If you changed your position and thought women shouldn't be pastors........your theology would condemn them.
Eve was not made equal to man, she was made from man, as his helpmeet, and is the glory of man (1Co 11:7-10) because she was made from him.
Man is made in the image of God, and because God has set man at the head of creation, he represents the glory of the headship and dominion God has over the world.
Woman was made from man in his image, in submission to her husband, reflecting the glory of him out of whom she was made, and is the image of God inasmuch as she is the image of man. (1Co 11:7-8).
Therefore, because she was intended to be in submission to the man, she should do nothing in the church that looks like she is trying to be equal in authority (1Tim 2:12).
The Kingdom hasn't changed since Paul.
It is the same kingdom now as it was when Paul grounded his command in the creation order.
And the command is clear, it applies to the church as well as to marriage--the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church (Eph 5:3), and in the church the woman is not to appear to have authority over a man (1Tim 2:12).
You simply don't like God's creation order, and in preferring your politically correct view over the word of God, you sit in judgment on the truth of God's word, choosing not to believe it.
Man is made in the image of God, and because God has set man at the head of creation, he represents the glory of the headship and dominion God has over the world.
Woman was made from man in his image, in submission to her husband, reflecting the glory of him out of whom she was made, and is the image of God inasmuch as she is the image of man. (1Co 11:7-8).
Therefore, because she was intended to be in submission to the man, she should do nothing in the church that looks like she is trying to be equal in authority (1Tim 2:12).
The Kingdom hasn't changed since Paul.
It is the same kingdom now as it was when Paul grounded his command in the creation order.
And the command is clear, it applies to the church as well as to marriage--the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church (Eph 5:3), and in the church the woman is not to appear to have authority over a man (1Tim 2:12).
You simply don't like God's creation order, and in preferring your politically correct view over the word of God, you sit in judgment on the truth of God's word, choosing not to believe it.
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Well, I'm glad you were able to clear that up for me, you being absolutely correct about my situation and all. I don't know what we would do without your superior judgment. Thanks for exposing my hell-bound state to all of CC.
Funny..... I could have sworn I was eternally secure earlier.....
Funny..... I could have sworn I was eternally secure earlier.....
You do believe the word of God in 1Tim 2:11-12?
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