Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
9,164
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Do you LOVE God?

Do you LOVE Jesus Christ our LORD?

If you do, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. john 14:15

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-17

Are you TEACHING obedience to God?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

Children of God
And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. 1 John 2:28-29

The Children of the Devil
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, YOU WOULD LOVE ME, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”John 8:42-47

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did1 John 2:3-6

Are you IN Jesus and WALKING as He did?

And this is love: that we WALK in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Those who do not obey God's commandments do not love God and are therefore not children of God but enemies of Him.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
I needed to go to your profile to read some of your other posts, and even then your words sound somewhat right, but I'm convinced that your words are indeed a works based doctrine.

You intermingle your posts with the need to love
Which of course nobody ever disagrees with. But then, when people are lulled by your love talk. BAM!!You hit them with the need to obey the commandments, relating them not to love, but the commandments the rich young ruler tried to keep.

Have you been on cc beforeunder a different name?
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
299
83
Apostasy is what we commit, not what God commits.

So, are you clarifying that apostasy is real?

If so, isn't that proof you can loose your salvation because you can chose to walk away from God?

And you are correct, the term OSAS is an idea that was not well thought out pertaining to what OSAS literally means.
Yes, I believe apostasy is real.
However, we cannot as a matter of our own will lose our salvation.
God decides when we have gone too far and cannot be brought back.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,711
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Not every hypothesis is wrong. They point to something that might be right.
Well, you're way off track. There is enough of Scripture to study with out adding in mans hypotheses.

Are you agreeing that salvation can be lost due to apostacy?

I think Hebrews 6:4-6 says that God has the final say.
I agree that no one (but God) can take away our salvation. Nothing we can do to lose it.
And this only under the worst circumstance. And it's God's call, not ours. In some cases it is
impossible for those who have fallen away to be brought back to repentance. Thus lost.
How are you even coming to any hint of questioning whether I believe salvation can be lost bro??? What???? Please, pay attention.

You're taking Hebrews out of context, and frankly I'm not interested in hypothesizing eternal matters. Scripture is clear, salvation cannot be lost. So yes, God gave the final say, which will not contradict his word.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,524
2,599
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Bad news guys. I left my salvation at the store earlier today and I cant find it anymore.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
This is proof then we should/must ask for forgiveness of our sins, in my opinion.
In Stephen ministry training we are told we not to "should" people. It's better to listen and help them see how seeking forgiveness is beneficial by giving testimony of how we did it in our own lives and how God made us better people through His love and forgiveness.

Allowing them to see they have a choice and the power to change their lives for the better by turning away from the world and towards God.

However they go about doing this....God will lead them.
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
Yes, I believe apostasy is real.
However, we cannot as a matter of our own will lose our salvation.
God decides when we have gone too far and cannot be brought back.




Obviously, God is the only who knows the cutoff line between where you are saved vs where you are not saved. But as a believer and follower of God, we do possess a sense of common sense to know and understand where we are with God. We know when we are close to God vs when we have strayed a bit. We put the blame on God to keep the record straight, but we are the ones choosing to get closer to God or to decide to do things that begin to separate ourselves from God.

In fact, your post is much like someone who loses their job for missing work and then blames the former employer for it. Kind of like someone spending eternity away from God, and then has the nerve to blame God when it was the lost soul's fault for separating themselves from God.

This part of your reply "However, we cannot as a matter of our own will lose our salvation" reads like a cop-out or excuse you've made to lay all blame on God in case you fail. But, if you fail, it is not because of God, it is solely because of YOU!!
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,755
893
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30
We ALL sin!!

So, when you sin, do you ask our heavenly Father to forgive you?

If so, why when you claim there is no need for it.

And yes, the Blood of Yeshua cleanses our sins and purifies us to be in the presence of Almighty God. But we must confess our sins in order to be forgiven.

David in Psalms asked God to FORGIVE THE SINS that he was unaware of that he had committed...SURELY...we also have sins we are unaware of (specifically)...we have example after example of people asking God for forgiveness throughout the scriptures...So, why would we be able to just sin and not ask to be forgiven?

The term past, present, and future sins is vindicated on asking for forgiveness.

Are you claiming since God knows everything, He should just know to forgive your future sins because you claim His GRACE?
If we could simply ask God to forgive us our sins Jesus didn't need to suffer on the cross. Using King David as an example of sin confession under the old testament doesn't supersede Christ's atonement in the new testament. Even the old testament saints relied upon faith, to the coming Messiah in order to be saved. Salvation, and our righteousness has always been of faith, and not works.
Our forgiveness found through Christ's bloodshed, the very causality to sin's remission.

Remember that I am not opposed to sin confession for transparency (though He already sees all things). To suggest we must seek forgiveness from God after having repented and believed in the Son of God, suggests that we haven't fully comprehended the work of Christ.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
Consider this. Forgiveness of sins is not the same thing as Christ dying on the Cross.

On the Cross, Jesus was not forgiving sins, He was paying the price for all sin. When He uttered 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do', that was in reference to the people who were presently crucifying Him. This was done in order to halt any judgement of God coming on them to destroy them at that moment.

God does not forgive as man forgives. We forgive by letting it go, and not seeking any form of retribution. But God can never let it go. All sin must be judged and punished. And so it has been with Jesus Christ Sacrifice. Because all sin has been judged and punished, then God can forgive our sins as we as Christians sin against Him.

Why do we seek forgiveness? Because our sins hinder our relationship with God. Confessing our sins cleanses the air between us and God. (1 John 1:9). We are not trying to get back into Heaven. We are trying to maintain our walk with God.

Quantrill
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,711
113
Do you LOVE God?

Do you LOVE Jesus Christ our LORD?

If you do, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS. john 14:15

Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to ENTER LIFE, obey the commandments.” Matthew 19:16-17
The man here could not have possibly gained eternal life via obedience, the text means something different altogether.

Are you TEACHING obedience to God?

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

Children of God
And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. 1 John 2:28-29
Yes, obedience is evidence of conversion, but not the cause.

The Children of the Devil
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, YOU WOULD LOVE ME, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”John 8:42-47

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did1 John 2:3-6

Are you IN Jesus and WALKING as He did?

And this is love: that we WALK in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Those who do not obey God's commandments do not love God and are therefore not children of God but enemies of Him.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Ephesians 5:6-7
You do realize that Ephesians 5:6 is in reference to the lost, the unconverted, yes?

It appears your teaching is that if a person wants to get to heaven they need to start obeying. If that is the case you have the proverbial cart before the horse sir.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Should we ask for forgiveness even If we are not aware that we just committed a sin or should we ask for forgiveness for the sins that we are aware of?

Me,I asked for forgiveness once and got saved,now I know that the Issue Is faith and not sin.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,711
113
If we could simply ask God to forgive us our sins Jesus didn't need to suffer on the cross. Using King David as an example of sin confession under the old testament doesn't supersede Christ's atonement in the new testament. Even the old testament saints relied upon faith, to the coming Messiah in order to be saved. Salvation, and our righteousness has always been of faith, and not works.
Our forgiveness found through Christ's bloodshed, the very causality to sin's remission.

Remember that I am not opposed to sin confession for transparency (though He already sees all things). To suggest we must seek forgiveness from God after having repented and believed in the Son of God, suggests that we haven't fully comprehended the work of Christ.
You don't understand the gospel, hyper grace has blinded you to its truths.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,528
6,187
113
Remember that I am not opposed to sin confession for transparency (though He already sees all things). To suggest we must seek forgiveness from God after having repented and believed in the Son of God, suggests that we haven't fully comprehended the work of Christ.
When you repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, all your past sins were forgiven, and you started with a clean slate. But since the sin nature was not eradicated at that time, you (and every Christian) could sin after conversion. Therefore the apostle John tells Christians (in his first epistle) to deal with their PRESENT SINS, in order to maintain fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is in view of the finished work of Christ as the propitiation for the sins of Christians and the whole world (1 John 2:1,2).
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
299
83
Obviously, God is the only who knows the cutoff line between where you are saved vs where you are not saved. But as a believer and follower of God, we do possess a sense of common sense to know and understand where we are with God. We know when we are close to God vs when we have strayed a bit. We put the blame on God to keep the record straight, but we are the ones choosing to get closer to God or to decide to do things that begin to separate ourselves from God.

In fact, your post is much like someone who loses their job for missing work and then blames the former employer for it. Kind of like someone spending eternity away from God, and then has the nerve to blame God when it was the lost soul's fault for separating themselves from God.

This part of your reply "However, we cannot as a matter of our own will lose our salvation" reads like a cop-out or excuse you've made to lay all blame on God in case you fail. But, if you fail, it is not because of God, it is solely because of YOU!!
This whole time I have had one aim.
To address the claim that we, through an act, or acts, of our own free will can lose our salvation. To this point I say: (again)
We cannot undo what only God can do in the first place. Meaning...
We are not saved as a result of our own self-efforts, nor can we revoke our salvation as a result of our own self-efforts.
God saved us, only God can revoke our salvation.

Several posters have swept Heb.6:4-6 aside claiming it does not mean what it plainly says due to the context.
I don't think context should be used as a way to dismiss what a scripture clearly says on it's own. Context should be used to
clarify that which is unclear, not to sidestep what is plainly stated. Let's take a closer look at what it says on its own.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who is this scripture talking about?
- those who have once been enlightened
- those who have tasted the heavenly gift
- those who have shared in the Holy Spirit
- those who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age.
This is obviously speaking of the saved.

What is it saying about them?
- It is impossible for those (saved individuals) to be brought back to repentance.

Why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance?
- To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What is the message?
This is a difficult passage, but it says what it says.
The most critical question in this scripture is defining what "fallen away" means.
Or more specifically, to what degree. In a sense, we fall away every time we sin.
But we know we have a remedy to restore fellowship through confession of sin and repentance.

So, the big question here is, to what degree can one fall away to which there is no remedy?
My answer is that, God only knows. It is in his hands, not ours to decide.
There is a line to cross, and we don't know where it is. Only God knows.
God's will is not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,711
113
This whole time I have had one aim.
To address the claim that we, through an act, or acts, of our own free will can lose our salvation. To this point I say: (again)
We cannot undo what only God can do in the first place. Meaning...
We are not saved as a result of our own self-efforts, nor can we revoke our salvation as a result of our own self-efforts.
God saved us, only God can revoke our salvation.
Actually you believe salvation can be lost which is why you incessantly post the same exact thing, same exact argument, same text while trying to appear OSAS.

It appears that your agenda is to come in sideways on this issue as if you'll gain a foothold. Haven't you been here before? I think you have and are trying to go at it from a different angle in attempt to prove salvation can be lost. No one who believes salvation cannot be lost is going to go all of a sudden "Wow!!! Sketch is right!!!" and then carry you on their shoulders through a victory parade. ;)

Several posters have swept Heb.6:4-6 aside claiming it does not mean what it plainly says due to the context.
I don't think context should be used as a way to dismiss what a scripture clearly says on it's own. Context should be used to
clarify that which is unclear, not to sidestep what is plainly stated.
No one has swept aside any text, we've simply swept aside your interpretation and hypotheses in favor of contextual exegesis.

But the above show's why you are in error, you believe context should not hold sway over an isolated text -- unless you need it to. That is a terrible mistake and is a horrendous way to attempt to interpret Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15 is in order. You're trying to play both sides of the issue above, pretense that context is important, and isn't important when you interpret outside of it. Thus context is only important if it agrees with you, if it doesn't then it is to be cast aside.

The result? Purely subjective interpretations.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
9,164
5,548
113
Consider this. Forgiveness of sins is not the same thing as Christ dying on the Cross.

On the Cross, Jesus was not forgiving sins, He was paying the price for all sin. When He uttered 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do', that was in reference to the people who were presently crucifying Him. This was done in order to halt any judgement of God coming on them to destroy them at that moment.

God does not forgive as man forgives. We forgive by letting it go, and not seeking any form of retribution. But God can never let it go. All sin must be judged and punished. And so it has been with Jesus Christ Sacrifice. Because all sin has been judged and punished, then God can forgive our sins as we as Christians sin against Him.

Why do we seek forgiveness? Because our sins hinder our relationship with God. Confessing our sins cleanses the air between us and God. (1 John 1:9). We are not trying to get back into Heaven. We are trying to maintain our walk with God.

Quantrill
This is about as good as I've ever seen in explaining this issue.

Thank you brother.
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
299
83
Actually you believe salvation can be lost which is why you incessantly post the same exact thing, same exact argument, same text while trying to appear OSAS.

It appears that your agenda is to come in sideways on this issue as if you'll gain a foothold. Haven't you been here before? I think you have and are trying to go at it from a different angle in attempt to prove salvation can be lost. No one who believes salvation cannot be lost is going to go all of a sudden "Wow!!! Sketch is right!!!" and then carry you on their shoulders through a victory parade. ;)



No one has swept aside any text, we've simply swept aside your interpretation and hypotheses in favor of contextual exegesis.

But the above show's why you are in error, you believe context should not hold sway over an isolated text -- unless you need it to. That is a terrible mistake and is a horrendous way to attempt to interpret Scripture. 2 Timothy 2:15 is in order. You're trying to play both sides of the issue above, pretense that context is important, and isn't important when you interpret outside of it. Thus context is only important if it agrees with you, if it doesn't then it is to be cast aside.

The result? Purely subjective interpretations.
So, you are claiming that Heb.6:4-6 does not mean what it plainly says?
(I noticed that you did not address any of it in your tirade -- even deleted it from my quote)

This is a discussion forum. Are you declaring that my presence here is unwelcome?
(as indicted by your conspiracy theory about me)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
9,164
5,548
113
This whole time I have had one aim.
To address the claim that we, through an act, or acts, of our own free will can lose our salvation. To this point I say: (again)
We cannot undo what only God can do in the first place. Meaning...
We are not saved as a result of our own self-efforts, nor can we revoke our salvation as a result of our own self-efforts.
God saved us, only God can revoke our salvation.

Several posters have swept Heb.6:4-6 aside claiming it does not mean what it plainly says due to the context.
I don't think context should be used as a way to dismiss what a scripture clearly says on it's own. Context should be used to
clarify that which is unclear, not to sidestep what is plainly stated. Let's take a closer look at what it says on its own.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Who is this scripture talking about?
- those who have once been enlightened
- those who have tasted the heavenly gift
- those who have shared in the Holy Spirit
- those who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age.
This is obviously speaking of the saved.

What is it saying about them?
- It is impossible for those (saved individuals) to be brought back to repentance.

Why is it impossible for them to be brought back to repentance?
- To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What is the message?
This is a difficult passage, but it says what it says.
The most critical question in this scripture is defining what "fallen away" means.
Or more specifically, to what degree. In a sense, we fall away every time we sin.
But we know we have a remedy to restore fellowship through confession of sin and repentance.

So, the big question here is, to what degree can one fall away to which there is no remedy?
My answer is that, God only knows. It is in his hands, not ours to decide.
There is a line to cross, and we don't know where it is. Only God knows.
God's will is not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
WHAT!!? Why would God revoke our Salvation, unless it is because of something WE did? P4T is right. This is nothing more than saying WE can do something to lose our Salvation, which at it's essence boils down to a works, or obedience for salvation doctrine.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
161
43
As we eagerly await a saviour from heaven...

...All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. Philippians 3:15-16