Eternal Security/OSAS is Bad Doctrine

[AmazedbyHim]

Can someone sanely answer this observation....OSAS or eternal security says no matter what your life looks like after the ‘decision’ your saved. Perseverance of the saints and the possibility of losing salvation says if there is no fruit there is no salvation. I am not sure in the end there is any difference except that God said you will persevere till the end but both are either saying you were saved then you weren’t and the other says you were never. Now my true question is what is true perseverance....is it fruit? Then what is the line between ‘not enough fruit’ ?
How can someone know if they are the 2nd soil or the 4th soil? I guess that is why I am drawn to election because then really how could anyone know if they are on the narrow path that few find? Are my works good enough? Is the measure Sister Theresa or the struggling sinner that keeps messing up but both love Jesus? I know it is Christ and faith in him but I am saying when we start discussing works and fruit and soils I don’t know if we can ever humanly know. Opinions?

 

[AmazedbyHim]

Can someone sanely answer this observation....OSAS or eternal security says no matter what your life looks like after the ‘decision’ your saved. Perseverance of the saints and the possibility of losing salvation says if there is no fruit there is no salvation. I am not sure in the end there is any difference except that God said you will persevere till the end but both are either saying you were saved then you weren’t and the other says you were never. Now my true question is what is true perseverance....is it fruit? Then what is the line between ‘not enough fruit’ ?
How can someone know if they are the 2nd soil or the 4th soil? I guess that is why I am drawn to election because then really how could anyone know if they are on the narrow path that few find? Are my works good enough? Is the measure Sister Theresa or the struggling sinner that keeps messing up but both love Jesus? I know it is Christ and faith in him but I am saying when we start discussing works and fruit and soils I don’t know if we can ever humanly know. Opinions?

Sorry just to clarify I was saying the POTS and Losing Salvation people are humanly saying the end is the same not the OSAS. The POTS and Losing Salvation folks both believe there must be sactification for true salvation so not sure how at odds you really are. Thanks

 

[PS]

If people think they are always saved, then why are there all these warnings about falling away?

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Pro 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with the fruit of his ways, and a good man will be filled with the fruit of his ways.

Jer 14:7 "Though our iniquities testify against us, act, O LORD, for your name's sake; for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against you.

Hos 11:7 My people are bent on turning away from me, and though they call out to the Most High, he shall not raise them up at all.

Luk 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough and looking back is fit for the kingdom of God.

Gal 4:8 But then indeed, not knowing God, you served them who, by nature, are not gods. But now, after that you have known God, or rather are known by God: how turn you again to the weak and needy elements which you desire to serve again?

Heb 10:38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him." But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.

1Ki 11:4 For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD and did not wholly follow the LORD, as David his father had done. Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem.

Luk 8:13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Heb 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

2Pe 3:17 And so, dear friends, since you already know these things, continually be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of lawless people. Otherwise, you may fall from your secure position.

 

[Endoscopy]

Can someone sanely answer this observation....OSAS or eternal security says no matter what your life looks like after the ‘decision’ your saved. Perseverance of the saints and the possibility of losing salvation says if there is no fruit there is no salvation. I am not sure in the end there is any difference except that God said you will persevere till the end but both are either saying you were saved then you weren’t and the other says you were never. Now my true question is what is true perseverance....is it fruit? Then what is the line between ‘not enough fruit’ ?
How can someone know if they are the 2nd soil or the 4th soil? I guess that is why I am drawn to election because then really how could anyone know if they are on the narrow path that few find? Are my works good enough? Is the measure Sister Theresa or the struggling sinner that keeps messing up but both love Jesus? I know it is Christ and faith in him but I am saying when we start discussing works and fruit and soils I don’t know if we can ever humanly know. Opinions?

What is ignored is all of us keep on sinning. Thank God for the grace through faith in Jesus for delivering us from the just condemnation at judgement time.

 

[Sketch]

Can someone sanely answer this observation....OSAS or eternal security says no matter what your life looks like after the ‘decision’ your saved.

OSAS says nothing of the sort. This is a false accusation.

 

[Sketch]

I am not sure in the end there is any difference except that God said you will persevere till the end...

That is a misuse of scripture. The context is about surviving the end times, not the salvation of your soul.

 

[Sketch]

I know it is Christ and faith in him but I am saying when we start discussing works and fruit and soils I don’t know if we can ever humanly know. Opinions?

Exactly.
As soon as you introduce works to the salvation requirement there is no way to measure whether you are saved or not.
If salvation is based on the finished work of Christ, that is measurable. It's done.

 

[AmazedbyHim]

OSAS says nothing of the sort. This is a false accusation.

Sorry that is what the doctrine is accused of not saying it is...I know it is also synonymous with perseverance meaning as Christians we can’t lose our salvation. I agree OSAS is more about God keeping us so sorry for the accusation.

 

[AmazedbyHim]

Exactly.
As soon as you introduce works to the salvation requirement there is no way to measure whether you are saved or not.
If salvation is based on the finished work of Christ, that is measurable. It's done.

Yep I agree or I want to agree. Sometimes though I wonder as I see people walk in ‘falth’ for years walk away and never come back. I wonder how can anyone ever be sure till the day they die. ‘They went out from us because they were not of us’. We have to remain faithful but it seems like we have to work it out to the end. ‘ Work our your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you....It seems like you can fool yourself all the way to hell.
Just pray sometimes it was clearer...which if it was perfectly clear which I have said it was many times I don’t think there would be so much disagreement. Opinions?

 

[Didymous]

Can someone sanely answer this observation....OSAS or eternal security says no matter what your life looks like after the ‘decision’ your saved. Perseverance of the saints and the possibility of losing salvation says if there is no fruit there is no salvation. I am not sure in the end there is any difference except that God said you will persevere till the end but both are either saying you were saved then you weren’t and the other says you were never. Now my true question is what is true perseverance....is it fruit? Then what is the line between ‘not enough fruit’ ?
How can someone know if they are the 2nd soil or the 4th soil? I guess that is why I am drawn to election because then really how could anyone know if they are on the narrow path that few find? Are my works good enough? Is the measure Sister Theresa or the struggling sinner that keeps messing up but both love Jesus? I know it is Christ and faith in him but I am saying when we start discussing works and fruit and soils I don’t know if we can ever humanly know. Opinions?

Let the bible reveal the truth to you. Read the book of John and see if you can find any requirements for salvation other than believing in Jesus.

 

[Sketch]

Yep I agree or I want to agree. Sometimes though I wonder as I see people walk in ‘falth’ for years walk away and never come back. I wonder how can anyone ever be sure till the day they die. ‘They went out from us because they were not of us’. We have to remain faithful but it seems like we have to work it out to the end. ‘ Work our your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you....It seems like you can fool yourself all the way to hell.
Just pray sometimes it was clearer...which if it was perfectly clear which I have said it was many times I don’t think there would be so much disagreement. Opinions?

There is nothing we can do in and of ourselves (through self-effort) to be saved.
Likewise, there is nothing we can do in and of ourselves (through self-effort) to undo what only God can do in the first place.

 

[Didymous]

Yep I agree or I want to agree. Sometimes though I wonder as I see people walk in ‘falth’ for years walk away and never come back. I wonder how can anyone ever be sure till the day they die. ‘They went out from us because they were not of us’. We have to remain faithful but it seems like we have to work it out to the end. ‘ Work our your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you....It seems like you can fool yourself all the way to hell.
Just pray sometimes it was clearer...which if it was perfectly clear which I have said it was many times I don’t think there would be so much disagreement. Opinions?

The problem with the misunderstandings is because many don't understand that there is more than one kind of salvation. The main one, of course, is the salvation Jesus gives us. Then there is the salvation from temporal wrath.

 

[Endoscopy]

Exactly.
As soon as you introduce works to the salvation requirement there is no way to measure whether you are saved or not.
If salvation is based on the finished work of Christ, that is measurable. It's done.

Works is involved in salvation. It does not save but proves faith. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. True faith generates works, faith without works is dead. As James states I will show you my faith with my works.

Try reading the scripture.

 

[Sketch]

Try reading the scripture.

Was that necessary?

 

[Endoscopy]

The problem with the misunderstandings is because many don't understand that there is more than one kind of salvation. The main one, of course, is the salvation Jesus gives us. Then there is the salvation from temporal wrath.

Provide scripture references. The only salvation is what works at judgement time. Will Jesus say he never knew you?

 

[Didymous]

Works is involved in salvation. It does not save but proves faith. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. True faith generates works, faith without works is dead. As James states I will show you my faith with my works.

Try reading the scripture.

Provide scripture references. The only salvation is what works at judgement time. Will Jesus say he never knew you?

Should I respond to you as you responded to Amazedbyhim?

 

[Endoscopy]

The problem with the misunderstandings is because many don't understand that there is more than one kind of salvation. The main one, of course, is the salvation Jesus gives us. Then there is the salvation from temporal wrath.

Provide scripture references. The only salvation is what works at judgement time. Will Jesus say he never knew you?

 

[obedienttogod]

I have spent the last 22 months studying the Bible, especially the New Testament, several hours per day. Sometimes up to 10 to 12 hours per day. I have been a Christian for 30 years but because of unemployment the last 22 months I have had a lot of time to study. I estimate I have spent about 3,500 hours studying my Bible the last 2 years.

WOW, that is a lot of time you spent, to have literally misunderstood the meaning of God's Holy Word.

I'm praying that you find adequate employment you should be seeking!!

 

[Garydavid]

Ephesians 1: 13-14 says, “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” So what does this verse really mean?



The Eternal Security/OSAS person does not understand this verse correctly because they keep thinking the “SEALING” is irreversible. Like the Holy Spirit is implanted within them now and cannot escape. But is this correct?



How did you receive the Holy Spirit the first time? Through faith in Christ. Who is Paul writing this letter to? The church at Ephesus. Believers. Believers. Believers.



Let me say it one more time in the hopes that it will sink down into your ears. They were BELIEVERS.



I already gave you the analogy of electricity and Jesus. So let’s think about it the correct way. If you stop believing, His Spirit leaves you. You flipped the light switch off. It’s just like the sap from the vine/Jesus in John 15. No more sap going into the branch which is you. No more of His life.



A “seal” in the Bible is a mark of ownership. In Revelation 13 we read about all the people who take the “mark of the beast” and everybody who takes the “mark” perishes. Why? Because they belong to the devil. It is a mark of ownership and allegiance. They are unbelievers.



How do I know this? Look at the immediate context that follows right after Revelation 13.



Revelation 14: 1, “Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.”



Why is the name written on their foreheads? And why is it on their foreheads only? The “mark of the beast” in Revelation 13 is on both foreheads and hands. Why?



Because in the Bible the forehead represents the mind/heart and what you believe. The hand represents your works/actions.



We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. This is why you see the name in Revelation 14: 1 written only on their foreheads and no mention of hands. Who are these people in Revelation 14: 1?



They are the same group in Revelation 7: 1-4. What does it say there? To paraphrase the verses it says, “…don’t harm anything until we SEAL the servants of our God on their foreheads…” The number is the exact same of Revelation 14. 144,000. Rev 7 and 14 are the same group.



A “SEAL” is a mark of ownership in the Bible. Who does God own? People of faith. Because it is what you believe in your mind/heart. This is why it is only on their foreheads in Rev 14: 1. They have put their trust in Christ. When a person stops believing, God doesn’t own them anymore. They have abandoned Him. No more seal. His Spirit departs.



Paul is speaking figuratively in Ephesians 1: 13 and 4: 30 saying to those believers that they belong to God because of their FAITH IN CHRIST. AND AS LONG AS THEY KEEP THAT FAITH IN CHRIST, GOD WILL FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO THEM.



There are 80 verses and passages within the New Testament that say a person must continue to believe to the end of their life or they will not be saved. To deny this is to deny Scripture. I can list them upon request if anyone wants them.



Now having said all this, I want to offer one caveat. I believe in the ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SHEEP ONLY. What do I mean by this?



John 10: 26-29 says, “But you do not believe, because you are not My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”



This is the favorite passage of the Eternal Security/OSAS believer. They think this means that once you are “born again” and “sealed” that it is irreversible.



Something very important in this passage needs to be noted. JESUS IS NOT SAYING THAT ONLY SHEEP BELIEVE IN JOHN 10: 26. This is a logic error OSAS advocates make. This passage is a big reason why OSAS people think you “can’t lose your salvation” as they would put it.



I have already shown in this post that there are at least TWO CLASSES OF BELIEVERS. How do we reconcile this with John 10: 26-29?



In my opinion, the fourth soil, the one with the “good and sincere” hearts who bear fruit with patience, are the “sheep” of John 10 that Jesus is talking about. This is the only group of believers that will hang on to their faith their whole lives. Why?



Because they love God. And God gives them the revelation they need to keep believing. And because they love God they never leave Him or listen to anyone else and Jesus preserves them THROUGH THEIR FAITH THAT THEY KEEP ALL OF THEIR LIVES.



The second soil believers, along with the John 15: 6 believers, along with the John 2: 23-25 believers, along with the John 8: 31 believers, do not really love God. Their faith eventually dies. Why?



They leave because the road is hard and narrow as Matthew 7: 13-14 tells us and because they have “bad hearts” they go back to the world.



These BELIEVERS, and Jesus tells us they are all REAL BELIEVERS, perish eternally because they don’t hang on to their trust in Christ.



Sin hardens their heart, which is already “rocky soil” and not good to begin with, and their REAL FAITH DIES.



This is what the Scripture says. These are not my opinions. The only opinion I have given is that I believe that the fourth soil is probably the sheep of John 10. This is why I say I believe in the “eternal security of the sheep only”. But there is more than one class of REAL BELIEVERS.



Everything else I have given is Scripture alone and I believe proves that OSAS is false.



If you disagree with any of my conclusions, please use Scripture alone to tell me why. I would be happy to dialogue with you and love discussing the Scriptures.



God bless.

I want to thank you for taking the time to have written this. I have read it and agree. As you have stated, there are those that say that once saved thay are always saved regardless of anything else. Do you agree that if one is saved then it must be lived each and every day? Whats the point of being saved if one does not live according to the teachings of Jesus each day? Doesent He have to shine in them thru their thoughts words and actions? Nice work in posting this, you have spent much time and research before posting this.
Thank you again and may God bless you....

 

[stonesoffire]

Thank you for this wonderful realization. The Holy Spirit entered into me in th e late 1960's and dbecaus I have never seen this osas teaching until coming here to the forum, i WAS IN THE dark about how it came about. It is the devil telling folks they can do danything they want as long as the give ip service......no way. God bless you always.

OSAS, I don't believe is teaching one can do anything and still be saved. I think that may be hyper grace. When we are born from above, we are on the road of life to become godly. I know you know this Jac.....We have a changed nature in our spirit.

OSAS is security in Him. In means a fixed position.

I had a dream many years ago of the wedding of the Bride and Jesus. It's very involved so won't tell all of it, but "security" ushered me into the wedding. It was on their shirts on the back.