Eternal Security Promotes Sin?

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shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#21
I think you are more reading the truth out of the scriptures...

Jude 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;


13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Those people are not saved. The "blackness of darkness forever" is death.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#22
What about the sin of the Pharisees...wasn't that kind of sin worse than what is practiced by the lawless licentious types. Are you justifying yourself by what others do that you don't?
Again, Do you understand what Licentiousness is?

The pharisee committed the sin of unbelief. That has nothing to do with licentiousness..

and why will you not answer? Did John lie?
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
216
113
43
#23
Again, Do you understand what Licentiousness is?

The pharisee committed the sin of unbelief. That has nothing to do with licentiousness..

and why will you not answer? Did John lie?

The pharisees claimed to see and to understand the truth..which they didn't....so their sin remained. That is the kind of sin we can commit while thinking we're just as justified as the Pharisees thought. But unless we are more honest (righteous) than they are we have no hope of entering the kingdom.

You should ask...does your interpretation lie? I think you know my answer to that! ;)
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
216
113
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#24
The various winds of doctrine blow from many points on the compass.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
1,986
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#25
The pharisees claimed to see and to understand the truth..which they didn't....so their sin remained. That is the kind of sin we can commit while thinking we're just as justified as the Pharisees thought. But unless we are more honest (righteous) than they are we have no hope of entering the kingdom.

You should ask...does your interpretation lie? I think you know my answer to that! ;)
If you are saved, you are already in the Kingdom. Not understanding this is one of the biggest reasons Christians still struggle in this life. The Kingdom of God is in the Holy Spirit. And we have the Holy Spirit. But I do agree the physical Kingdom manifests as Christ comes back, but we are in the Kingdom now and see it to the level we walk by the Spirit.
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,584
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#26
The pharisees claimed to see and to understand the truth..which they didn't....so their sin remained.
There sin remained because they did not believe, As john says, He who does not believe is condemned already. Some pharisees (like saul and nocodemus) repented and was saved,

That is the kind of sin we can commit while thinking we're just as justified as the Pharisees thought. But unless we are more honest (righteous) than they are we have no hope of entering the kingdom.

You should ask...does your interpretation lie? I think you know my answer to that! ;)
What I see is you dodging the question, and trying to change the subject.

What condemns us is the law. Have you obeyed the law? If not. Your just as condemned as every other sinner who ever lived upon this earth, unless your sin debt has been paid.



Again, Did John lie.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#27
If you are saved, you are already in the Kingdom. Not understanding this is one of the biggest reasons Christians still struggle in this life. The Kingdom of God is in the Holy Spirit. And we have the Holy Spirit. But I do agree the physical Kingdom manifests as Christ comes back, but we are in the Kingdom now and see it to the level we walk by the Spirit.

What gets me is th legalist excuses their own sin, They either have to ignore they are sinning at all. Write of their sin as not really a problem (like the pharisee who puffs their chest and thanks God he is not like the sinner (in their view, a muderer, drug addict, drunk, or sexually immoral person) while ignoring fact, according to the law. They are just as guilty. Thus they deny the sin is a sin, or water down thge law to fit their own preconcieved idea of what the standard is, thus justifying their own sin.

A person born of God who has eternal security has these qualities whihc prevents them from excusing their sin

1. They have the love of God in their heart, and wish only to return that love,
2, They know where they came from, and what sin caused, and have no desire to go back
3. . They have God in their hearts

4. They have the chastening, who can withstand Gods chastening?

I think it was paul who said the law (religion) causes sin to increase. Not grace. They (and we) should just stick to the word and not try to add our own preconcieved ideas.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
1,986
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#28
In regards to identity being hyper-grace teaching: Scripture does use the words “in Christ” and “you are now” quite a lot. The entire mindset of you are the light, the salt, and leaven these are all identity statements. A good tree can’t bear bad fruit is an identity statement. I can keep going with example after example. We are now sons of God. And in reverse we see the same identity statements used of unbelievers, wolves in sheep clothing, waterless clouds, and dogs who return to vomit. IMO, if we remove identity from the Bible and simply call it hyper-grace we would be removing much of what Scripture says.

As far as asking questions, Jesus only answers a few questions directly because I believe questions help us get to the heart of what we truly believe. We need to believe in our hearts not simply our minds. And questions can help us discover where we have a dogmatic bias and where we truly believe what we say. I love one on one interaction far more. Not being able to have a heart to heart back and forth quickly is actually one of the reasons I struggle in this forum format.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
216
113
43
#29
If you are saved, you are already in the Kingdom. Not understanding this is one of the biggest reasons Christians still struggle in this life. The Kingdom of God is in the Holy Spirit. And we have the Holy Spirit. But I do agree the physical Kingdom manifests as Christ comes back, but we are in the Kingdom now and see it to the level we walk by the Spirit.

First no one is finally saved until we are declared as such after we finish our race. Salvation is a process...Paul calls it a race...a race which can be lost.

The kingdom of God is a place...a spiritual place that few have entered into. The way is far too narrow to allow the multitudes in.
The reason for struggles is the lack of entering into the abundant life provision IN Christ. So they have been regenerated but not fully converted in their minds or in the experience of kingdom life. We enter into the kingdom of God by putting on Christ. (not in a claim it way but by being accepted by God and translated into Zion).


But your final point...amen!! we see the kingdom to the level we walk by the Spirit. It's about seeing. All believers can HEAR the Spirit (My sheep know My voice) but few can SEE into the spiritual realm...or by the Spirit.

To see as Jesus saw is to love as Jesus loved.

<><
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,584
1,082
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#30
First no one is finally saved until we are declared as such after we finish our race. Salvation is a process...Paul calls it a race...a race which can be lost.
Paul never called salvation a race, he called our process of being sanctified a race. One in which we will never in this lifetime fulfill, so we keep running the race.

The kingdom of God is a place...a spiritual place that few have entered into. The way is far too narrow to allow the multitudes in.
The reason for struggles is the lack of entering into the abundant life provision IN Christ. So they have been regenerated but not fully converted in their minds or in the experience of kingdom life. We enter into the kingdom of God by putting on Christ. (not in a claim it way but by being accepted by God and translated into Zion).


But your final point...amen!! we see the kingdom to the level we walk by the Spirit. It's about seeing. All believers can HEAR the Spirit (My sheep know My voice) but few can SEE into the spiritual realm...or by the Spirit.

To see as Jesus saw is to love as Jesus loved.

<><
I think I agree with the rest. We see more as we grow to maturity.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
216
113
43
#31
The confusion over eternal security stems from 2 misunderstandings.

One is that the word "saved" (sodzo) means an eternal kind of salvation rather than a deliverance from a present affliction or trouble.
An example of this is when Paul says that those who remain "in the ship" will be saved. Not many would confuse this with an eternal kind of salvation.

Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved."

So then most references to salvation are about healing or deliverances.

Another is...
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


After all Jesus said He was like the brass serpent in the wilderness...but those who were saved that day still perished in the wilderness.

The other misunderstanding is about what eternal life is....It is a KIND of life. Eternal life has no beginning and end...but we can enter in and out of the presence of God where we experience that kind of life.
 
Mar 14, 2011
52,584
1,082
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#32
The problem with misunderstanding what eternal security is the misunderstanding or misapplication of the words justify and sanctify.

I have been justified, It means I have been tried, and found innocent of all wrongdoing, of course, it was not because I was innocent, but because my penalty was redeemed, my freedom from guilt was paid by the blood of Christ. Basically, When God looks at me, he does not see my guilt, he sees his sons righteousness (ie, I have been imputed the righteousness of Christ on my behalf) and it is seen in the OT sacrificial system where the high priest on the day of atonement sprinkles the blood on top of the mercy seat,. When the cherub looks down, they do not see the things God has against us (the ten commands, Arrons rod that budded and the manna) They see the blood of the redemptive or atoneing sacrifice. WHich brings us to the word atonement, I have been atoned, One type of salvation (the most important part) is also found here, I have been saved eternally from thge debt of sin which I owe God. As he has perfected the one in whome ee is in the process of sanctifying

Which brings us to santify. I have been positionally sanctified (set apart) based on the above, But I also am in the process of being sanctified, as God is growing me to maturity. We grow as we learen to trust god in different areas of our lives, We are not saved as spiritually mature superchristians, We are saved as babes in christ, and we must allow God to grow us to mature adults, and this takes time, some longer than others, and some may never grow out of being a babe in Christ. For whatever reason (the church failed to help them grow by truly discipling them. I experienced this as a yong believer, The reverend billy graham said his greatest regret was failing to make sure the many who he hopes he led to christ were given the opportunity to recieve help as they have entered this spiritual warfare, We also see here another form of the term saved, as we are saved from ourselves. Saved from the problems and stresses of the world, and saved from the sin which enslaves us while we remain in these bodies (as we grow in christ and learn to trust him more.

Sadly, the problem is people mix these two things up as one iten, and not two seperate events (justification and santification, ie our justifaction depends on how we are sanctified, fail to sanctify ourself and we lose justification)

In reality, we have a third term Glorification.

The goal in sanctification is to make us more christlike, When we are glorified on the day of redemption, our sanctification will be complete. As the word says, we will see jesus as he is, and be like him. Until then, we are always riunning that race, trying to reach the prize of the high calling.

Why do we continue to run the race? If we think we have made it, we are in danger,
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
1,986
214
63
#33
The problem with misunderstanding what eternal security is the misunderstanding or misapplication of the words justify and sanctify.

I have been justified, It means I have been tried, and found innocent of all wrongdoing, of course, it was not because I was innocent, but because my penalty was redeemed, my freedom from guilt was paid by the blood of Christ. Basically, When God looks at me, he does not see my guilt, he sees his sons righteousness (ie, I have been imputed the righteousness of Christ on my behalf) and it is seen in the OT sacrificial system where the high priest on the day of atonement sprinkles the blood on top of the mercy seat,. When the cherub looks down, they do not see the things God has against us (the ten commands, Arrons rod that budded and the manna) They see the blood of the redemptive or atoneing sacrifice. WHich brings us to the word atonement, I have been atoned, One type of salvation (the most important part) is also found here, I have been saved eternally from thge debt of sin which I owe God. As he has perfected the one in whome ee is in the process of sanctifying

Which brings us to santify. I have been positionally sanctified (set apart) based on the above, But I also am in the process of being sanctified, as God is growing me to maturity. We grow as we learen to trust god in different areas of our lives, We are not saved as spiritually mature superchristians, We are saved as babes in christ, and we must allow God to grow us to mature adults, and this takes time, some longer than others, and some may never grow out of being a babe in Christ. For whatever reason (the church failed to help them grow by truly discipling them. I experienced this as a yong believer, The reverend billy graham said his greatest regret was failing to make sure the many who he hopes he led to christ were given the opportunity to recieve help as they have entered this spiritual warfare, We also see here another form of the term saved, as we are saved from ourselves. Saved from the problems and stresses of the world, and saved from the sin which enslaves us while we remain in these bodies (as we grow in christ and learn to trust him more.

Sadly, the problem is people mix these two things up as one iten, and not two seperate events (justification and santification, ie our justifaction depends on how we are sanctified, fail to sanctify ourself and we lose justification)

In reality, we have a third term Glorification.

The goal in sanctification is to make us more christlike, When we are glorified on the day of redemption, our sanctification will be complete. As the word says, we will see jesus as he is, and be like him. Until then, we are always riunning that race, trying to reach the prize of the high calling.

Why do we continue to run the race? If we think we have made it, we are in danger,
I believe people mix them up because they think salvation is the goal. But eternal life is to know Him, the gospel has been incomplete in my opinion. But like all things Kingdom our understanding is continually increasing.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
1,986
214
63
#34
First no one is finally saved until we are declared as such after we finish our race. Salvation is a process...Paul calls it a race...a race which can be lost.

The kingdom of God is a place...a spiritual place that few have entered into. The way is far too narrow to allow the multitudes in.
The reason for struggles is the lack of entering into the abundant life provision IN Christ. So they have been regenerated but not fully converted in their minds or in the experience of kingdom life. We enter into the kingdom of God by putting on Christ. (not in a claim it way but by being accepted by God and translated into Zion).


But your final point...amen!! we see the kingdom to the level we walk by the Spirit. It's about seeing. All believers can HEAR the Spirit (My sheep know My voice) but few can SEE into the spiritual realm...or by the Spirit.

To see as Jesus saw is to love as Jesus loved.

<><
I don’t believe the Kingdom is simply a place, it’s the Will of God. And where the will of God is fully enforced is the “place” you’re describing. But the word Kingdom is King’s Dominion or Domain. His domain is where people submit to Him. This is why our agreement or “amen” is so important. This is also why the Kingdom isn’t of word, but power. In time we see the fruit of the Kingdom, it’s not simply talk.
 
Jun 10, 2018
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#35
Jesus gave his life to insure our eternal security in the Father and from sin.
Those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. Those who claim Christ and continue to sin do not know Christ. And he does not know them.
It's all scripture and pretty simple. Sadly though there have arrived numerous man-made denominations that seek to re~frame that simple truth and insist that we mere mortals have to assist in fulfilling God's divine plan of Salvation for which his only begotten son gave his life to accomplish for all time.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
7,801
331
83
#36
The confusion over eternal security stems from 2 misunderstandings.

One is that the word "saved" (sodzo) means an eternal kind of salvation rather than a deliverance from a present affliction or trouble.
An example of this is when Paul says that those who remain "in the ship" will be saved. Not many would confuse this with an eternal kind of salvation.

Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved."

So then most references to salvation are about healing or deliverances.

Another is...
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


After all Jesus said He was like the brass serpent in the wilderness...but those who were saved that day still perished in the wilderness.

The other misunderstanding is about what eternal life is....It is a KIND of life. Eternal life has no beginning and end...but we can enter in and out of the presence of God where we experience that kind of life.
I think the "confusion" over eternal security stems from only one misunderstanding.

That is the misunderstanding that a person must earn their own Salvation somehow by doing good works or being a "good" person.

The bible clearly states that Eternal Life is given. Salvation is given. They are gifts given by God. As such, they are irrevocable.

So the confusion is really an intended confusion aimed at the carnal baby Christian who doesn't know the Lord, yet.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
1,986
214
63
#37
Eternal security promotes true, free, from the heart and out of love obedience to love one another, forgive one another, as we ourselves have been. He supplies the grace for us by us receiving it ourselves. And then we freely give what we FREELY received.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
1,560
193
63
#38
I believe people mix them up because they think salvation is the goal. But eternal life is to know Him, the gospel has been incomplete in my opinion. But like all things Kingdom our understanding is continually increasing.
Amen!

Salvation is the gift of God, given when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

The goal, or prize, is a "rich reward" (Heb 10:35), a "full reward" (2 John 1:8), to "reign with Christ" (Rev 20: 4, 6).

Rewards MATTER, and are worth working hard for.
 
Jun 10, 2018
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19
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#39
First no one is finally saved until we are declared as such after we finish our race. Salvation is a process...Paul calls it a race...a race which can be lost.
Jesus never said any such thing.
Nor did Paul.