Eternal torment VS Annihilation

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garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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Sure........keep dreaming.....My bible is clear, so is the inspired verbiage.....no matter how many people want to believe and peddle a temporary punishment for the lost it does not bear up under scrutiny and or a honest evaluation of the word of God....SO.....no sense to dance over this......you will not change my view!
The wrath of God that is being revealed from heaven reveals a dead creation it is not temporal but eternal .Those who did not receive a new spirit and heart as born again. They will not rise to new spirit life forever and ever . God is not merciless . He himself is subject to His law.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment

Different kinds of mercy. . no more suffering the pangs of hell a living suffering as the wrath of God. .

I think we could say mercy to a believer rejoiceth against judgment revealing the unseen grace, as a law of faith .
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Your point makes no sense here logically. So the contrast of life is death correct? Yet to you eternal life is opposite of eternal torment. The punishment of eternal death is eternal. They will be cut off from life and the kingdom forever. So your logic that duration isn’t the same is bad.
I wonder why Jesus used the phrase "eternal punishment" instead of "eternal death". It would have fit annihilationist theology better..but he didn't :) He used punishment for a reason.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I would like to set this in the right perspective.

1st. What does it matter? Hell exists either way and Hell is no place any right thinking person should want to go even though everyone who ends up in Hell chose it.

2nd. Again either way God is just in his punishment. If God is all just and He is then so are His punishments. He is the absolute moral example. We get morality from observing who God is and we are created in His image giving us a sense of God through the moral code, moral law written within us.

Making God the only one to judge anything done outside the boundaries of morality. So when God judges, he is absolutely just, fair and could never be unjust due to He is also merciful as explained.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

By the time God judges all of mankind, none will without excuse.

3rd. Just for the sake of debate. Good arguments have been made for both views.

One says this:

Matthew 25:46 New International Version (NIV)
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


While another says this:

Revelation 20:12-14 New International Version (NIV)
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

A good strategy when reading scripture is the And Or method as in both scripture build on each other. In which could possibly mean the second death is soul death and this is a eternal punishment.

Either way this is one of those topics that will be forever debated and really makes no difference in the end.

It does matter.

One, cults use the annihilationist view in order to proselytize. This attracts individuals who have lost unsaved loved ones I haven't conducted a survey but my guess is that most cults believe in annihilationism.

Two, bad doctrine spills into other areas. For example, I think a majority of annihilationists are cultists, and end up adopting a view of man that is also distorted. For example, a fundamental teaching of SDAs is that man is not human until their first breath, and this affects their corporate view on abortion (their health care organizations perform abortions). It also affects their view on the intermediate stage....they believe in "soul sleep".

I don't know how many other doctrines are affected, but I know that bad doctrine has more impact than what you may think.
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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Not so. One is Just, the other sadistic, cruel and the 'allah' of the Muhammad.
Where is your evidence for this opinion? This is just your opinion because either view would be just if either is true.

This doctrine doesn't affect soul salvation. As to why it is silly to divide over. Hell exists and that is truly all that matters really. Details doesn't take away or gain anything. Hell in either view is still eternal separation from God.

You didn't have to. It's obvious.
Any intellectual can entertain both ideas without believing 1 or the other. By assuming my position your creating the logical fallacy of assumption.

You forgot to answer my questions also.
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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It does matter.

One, cults use the annihilationist view in order to proselytize. This attracts individuals who have lost unsaved loved ones I haven't conducted a survey but my guess is that most cults believe in annihilationism.

Two, bad doctrine spills into other areas. For example, I think a majority of annihilationists are cultists, and end up adopting a view of man that is also distorted. For example, a fundamental teaching of SDAs is that man is not human until their first breath, and this affects their corporate view on abortion (their health care organizations perform abortions). It also affects their view on the intermediate stage....they believe in "soul sleep".

I don't know how many other doctrines are affected, but I know that bad doctrine has more impact than what you may think.
I'm sorry but anything that doesn't affect soul salvation isnt worth dividing over.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I’m sorry but you are very arrogant and ignorant. If anything traditionalist use creative interpretations to support eternal torment. There are only two scriptures in the entire bible that even could be used for eternal torment. Revelation 14:11 which keeps getting spammed here out of context doesn’t even mention the lake of fire. In fact in verse 10 it speaks of those who receive the mark are to be tormented in the presence of the lamb and the holy angels. So Jesus and the angels are just watching this forever? Also if all are destined to be tormented forever than what would it matter if they worshiped the best or not? Also in the context it only says the smoke of their torment rises forever, not their actual torment. The Old Testament uses the same language but it doesn’t literally mean smoke goes up forever but symbolism for destruction. Isaiah 34:10 is a perfect example of that. So the majority here are making their arguments from the most symbolic book in the Bible and are taking it at face value wooden literally. I’m sorry but also the lost prior that tries to make destruction mean ruination is a farce. The poster took a bias source that believes in ECT and used a synonym for destruction totally ignoring all context. Matthew 2:13 says Herod sought to destroy Jesus, did he simply want to ruin him? No in other translations he sought to kill him. Matthew 10:28 says not to fear him who can kill the body but not the soul, but to fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. The context is killing. 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7 both show sodom and Gomorrah as an example of what will happen to the lost. It wasn’t eternal torment. Also even ones to hold literally to revelation 20:10 the beast isn’t a literal beast, also if the second death is eternal conscious torment then when death is no more wouldn’t Ect be undone? I’m just stating all of this to give y’all something to think about. The great scholar John Stott was a conditionalist and the great scholar Preston sprinkle who co authored erasing hell became a conditionalist after all of his research. So please y’all get off your high horses with the idea that this is heretical and fear mongering. It’s more scriptural than eternal conscious torment is by far. Eternal punishment doesn’t mean eternal torment, punishment can be anything including the death penalty. Unquenchable fire only means it can not be put out. Eternal fire many times only means it’s source is eternal not that the fire never ceases after destruction. Also last thing the scripture about their worm shall not die is Isaiah 66:24 and in the context is speaking only of dead bodies.
Concerning being arrogant and ignorant, one thing I learned from being a member of a cult that taught annihilationism is to give church history it’s due consideration. Otherwise I become arrogant and ignorant like the cultists and their leader again.

Does that mean I follow church teaching blindly? No. But it does mean that I don’t look at biblical teaching at a shallow level presented to me by some rube who stumbled on the scene and claims his unorthodox position is the truth.

Additionally I’ve been a Christian 34 years and I’ve had more than my share of individuals criticizing my understanding of Scripture. Many were bottle-sucking newer believers showing me their spiritual diapers. I won’t lose any sleep over it :)

Like I’ve said on other posts, a lot of annihilationists are cultists with an agenda. The agenda is to cast doubt on Christianity as a whole. Annihilationism is only one step in their indoctrination program.

By the way, I don’t have significant issues with the annihilationist position except that it is often the starting point of questioning God’s sovereignty and his right to do whatever he wants with his creation. Universalism and post-mortem salvation opportunities come next. It seems like that’s the direction Sprinkle is taking by the comments he made in the video.
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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Are you new to Christianity? Have you not seen the hostility Christians bring when discussing such topics. Have you not been in any of these chat rooms where Christian after Christian is trying to metaphorically cut the other one down while saying God bless? The church is at a pivotal point in history where we cannot afford to divide on the small details. If a topic has been debated for centuries I highly doubt it will ever be ironed out in less God reveals more details. Just saying.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Are you new to Christianity? Have you not seen the hostility Christians bring when discussing such topics. Have you not been in any of these chat rooms where Christian after Christian is trying to metaphorically cut the other one down while saying God bless? The church is at a pivotal point in history where we cannot afford to divide on the small details. If a topic has been debated for centuries I highly doubt it will ever be ironed out in less God reveals more details. Just saying.
Eternal torment has been supported by almost all evangelical Christians. It is hardly a doubtful matter. Reformed vs. non- Reformed theology is more of a debatable matter.

In my association eternal torment is considered a core evangelical position. And they are a pretty well balanced group.

I’ve been a Christian 34 years.

Annihilationism might be a debatable issue amongs internet theologians but not in real life :).
 
Aug 21, 2019
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I’ve been a Christian 34 years.
Length of time holding to an error, does not sanctify that error, nor turn it into truth over time. Evolutionism physically speaking is just as much an error as evolutionism theologically and spiritually. Error does not become truth simply by aging. It is fallacious thinking. I could cite the age of many others who disagree, based upon scripture, with your position, and they are most assuredly older than you.

So, in your theological view, When will sin have an end?
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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Eternal torment has been supported by almost all evangelical Christians. It is hardly a doubtful matter. Reformed vs. non- Reformed theology is more of a debatable matter.

In my association eternal torment is considered a core evangelical position. And they are a pretty well balanced group.

I’ve been a Christian 34 years.

Annihilationism might be a debatable issue amongs internet theologians but not in real life :).
it would seem that the word "dead" needs to be defined Different than dead asleep not dead as a door nail or finger nail .

The corrupted flesh of man as the wrath of God revealed from heaven in regard to those who have violated the letter of the law . Their spirit without a body returns to the father of spirits who gave it temporally. Their lifeless spiritless body return to the dust.. . . never to rise to born again spirt life. No spirit life, no essence of life that could move as a corrupted body of death.

A person’s body that does not have a spirit is dead. It is the same with faith—faith that does nothing is dead! James 2:26

On the last day the letter of the law that kills will be thrown into the lake of fire. It will never to rise and condemn another creation.

You could say no tool to perform the murderous rampage of the seral murderer the father of lies. He was a murderer from the beginng. Did God say you will not surely die. Rather than what some say they will suffer the suffering of a merciless God forever.
 
Aug 21, 2019
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James 2 is interesting to look at in the line of reasoning:

Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, for those who teach that "dead" doesn't really mean "dead" in regards the 2nd death, are you saying that "dead" in regards to "faith" without "works" (of God), that such "faith" is still actually living, vibrant, active?
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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Length of time holding to an error, does not sanctify that error, nor turn it into truth over time. Evolutionism physically speaking is just as much an error as evolutionism theologically and spiritually. Error does not become truth simply by aging. It is fallacious thinking. I could cite the age of many others who disagree, based upon scripture, with your position, and they are most assuredly older than you.

So, in your theological view, When will sin have an end?
I would offer. When the letter of the law (death) is cast into the lake of fire. . . never to rise again and condemn another creation. No wrath of God being revealed from the new heavens and earth.

John 11:24 Martha answered, “I know that he will rise to live again at the time of the resurrection on the last day.”

John 12:48 But there is a judge for all those who refuse to believe in me and do not accept what I say. The message I have spoken will judge them on the last day.

No book of the law according to the letter. . . . no judgment. . . it alone is the final ..the end.

Revelation 20:14And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.
 
Aug 21, 2019
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Now let's consider this "lake of fire", and see if it even exists eternally in context:

Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?

Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

While Revelation 21:1 states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:

Isaiah 33:14 - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isaiah 33:15 - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Isaiah 33:16 - He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Isaiah 33:17 - Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Isaiah 33:18 - Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

Isaiah 33:19 - Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

Isaiah 33:20 - Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

Isaiah 33:21 - But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

[see also Ezekiel 47:1-6]

Isaiah 33:22 - For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

Isaiah 33:23 - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

Isaiah 33:24 - And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.

The text also reveals that the "lake of fire", even the fiery "sea" will have passed away also, for it was upon this old earth, look again [ignore the chapter break for a moment, just read it straight through]:

Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:

Luke 5:1 - "the lake of Gennesaret" [see "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11], [see also "Chinnereth" [Deuteronomy 3:17; Joshua 19:35]] or "sea of Chinneroth" [Joshua 12:3], or "of Gennesaret" [Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53]; Matthew 8:27; Mark 4:39,41 uses the word "sea" and John 6:1 says, "sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias".

The very word "lake" in the Koine Greek in Revelation 20:14,15 is λιμνην [limnen].

G3041 [only used in the Koine Greek of the NT, I didn't find it in the (so-called) LXX either]

λίμνη limnē

Total Occurrences: 10

lake, 10

Luke 5:1-2 (2), 8:22-23 (2),33;

Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8

See also the alternate word for "sea":


G2281 [its also in the (so-called) LXX, in the very places of the "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11,12 (so-called) [LXX], etc]

θάλασσα thalassa

Total Occurrences: 95

sea, 93

Mat_4:15, Mat_4:18 (2), Mat_8:24, Mat_8:26-27 (2), Mat_8:32, Mat_13:1, Mat_13:47, Mat_14:24-26 (3), Mat_15:29, Mat_17:27, Mat_18:6, Mat_21:21, Mar_1:15-16 (3), Mar_2:13, Mar_3:7, Mar_4:1 (3), Mar_4:39, Mar_4:41, Mar_5:1, Mar_5:13 (2), Mar_5:21, Mar_6:47-49 (3), Mar_7:31, Mar_9:42, Mar_11:23, Luk_17:2, Luk_17:6, Luk_21:25, Joh_6:1 (2), Joh_6:16-19 (4), Joh_6:22, Joh_6:25, Joh_21:1, Joh_21:7, Act_4:24, Act_7:36, Act_10:6, Act_10:32, Act_14:15, Act_17:14, Act_27:30, Act_27:38, Act_27:40, Act_28:4, Rom_9:27, 1Co_10:1-2 (2), 2Co_11:26, Heb_11:12, Heb_11:29, Jas_1:6, Jud_1:13, Rev_4:6, Rev_5:13, Rev_7:1-3 (3), Rev_8:8-9 (3), Rev_10:2, Rev_10:5-6 (2), Rev_10:8, Rev_12:12, Rev_13:1 (2), Rev_14:7, Rev_16:2-3 (4), Rev_18:17, Rev_18:19, Rev_18:21, Rev_20:8, Rev_20:13, Rev_21:1

red [sea], 2

Act_7:36, Heb_11:29
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Length of time holding to an error, does not sanctify that error, nor turn it into truth over time. Evolutionism physically speaking is just as much an error as evolutionism theologically and spiritually. Error does not become truth simply by aging. It is fallacious thinking. I could cite the age of many others who disagree, based upon scripture, with your position, and they are most assuredly older than you.

So, in your theological view, When will sin have an end?
There is a level of respect we should hold toward church history. As I have said, cultic individuals are constantly claiming they have been chosen by God to straighten out the church on matters like this.

Especially on Internet forums, there are many with such a mentality. This is partially because some are not tethered to a congregation and as such, are like little children spiritually that are tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine.


I invite you to read Ephesians 4 in this regard. It talks about the perils of those who aren’t in fellowship.

When will my personal sin have an end? At my glorification.

If you are asking me when all evil beings will cease to exist, I don’t believe all evil beings will cease to exist at any point. They will continue to blaspheme God in their place of consignment, and thus keep heaping punishment upon themselves.

Read Revelation 16:10-11 and see that those who rebel against God won’t be brought to repentance even in the midst of the Lamb on the throne and their pain and suffering. That is only a foreshadow of eternal punishment.
 

garee

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James 2 is interesting to look at in the line of reasoning:

Jas_2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So, for those who teach that "dead" doesn't really mean "dead" in regards the 2nd death, are you saying that "dead" in regards to "faith" without "works" (of God), that such "faith" is still actually living, vibrant, active?
I think we are on the same page? No they never had that faith working in them to both will and do the good pleasure of God. That describes them as having no faith not little, none. as forward nation unconverted mankind.

Our new faith is the gift .By it we can hear what he says to the churches. Not to be confused with what the churches say in respect to their differences of ideas

No dead means dead no waking up. Dead asleep, means dead asleep (the ones that do have a spirit) wake=able.

Jesus said to Lazarus rise and shine with the righteousness of faith (Christ's) get those grave clothing off let your new light shine .won't be many hitting that snooze button the last day

”John 11:43-44 After Jesus said this he called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out. His hands and feet were wrapped with pieces of cloth. He had a handkerchief covering his face.Jesus said to the people, “Take off the cloth and let him go.”
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Rev 21-22 discusses a place outside Paradise where evil individuals reside. The text does not indicate where this is. It does not say that evil individuals cease to exist, but they exist somewhere outside Paradise.

If they don’t have the blessing-presence of God, this state is by nature one of torment. It is only in the blessing-presence of God that one experiences peace and joy. There is no shalom for the wicked.

There are reasons why the Church has held the eternal torment view.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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I think we are on the same page? No they never had that faith working in them to both will and do the good pleasure of God. That describes them as having no faith not little, none. as forward nation unconverted mankind.

Our new faith is the gift .By it we can hear what he says to the churches. Not to be confused with what the churches say in respect to their differences of ideas

No dead means dead no waking up. Dead asleep, means dead asleep (the ones that do have a spirit) wake=able.

Jesus said to Lazarus rise and shine with the righteousness of faith (Christ's) get those grave clothing off let your new light shine .won't be many hitting that snooze button the last day

”John 11:43-44 After Jesus said this he called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out. His hands and feet were wrapped with pieces of cloth. He had a handkerchief covering his face.Jesus said to the people, “Take off the cloth and let him go.”
Read Ephesians 2:1-4 to see that unconverted mankind is spiritually dead even while animated and moving. Are you guys really so uninformed about the Bible that you are unaware of this?

The same can be said of the eternally lost. Whether they are conscious or not, they are dead spiritually because they don’t live in the blessing-presence of God so they don’t have life. This has to do with union with Christ. If someone is in union with Christ they are alive whether they are physically dead or alive. They are living in the presence of God.

The physical body has the appearance of sleep at death. that is why sleep is used in regards to the dead.
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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Now let's consider this "lake of fire", and see if it even exists eternally in context:

Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?

Revelation 20:14 - And
Now let's consider this "lake of fire", and see if it even exists eternally in context:

Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?

Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Hi thanks for the reply. Not sure of; "and see if it even exists eternally in context?" Comparing sea to lake. . . fresh water to salt?

I would question death and hell as separate. Death is the living suffering of hell, living in a corrupted body the wrath of God being revealed in respect to this creation from heaven . Death as hell no separation.. Like work and faith they cannot be separated . We are saved by the work of Christ's faith as his labor of love that works in us, the power not of us.