F I R M A M E N T U M

[DanielLL]

you can use Scripture to disprove erroneous interpretations of Scripture.

Yes I can use Scripture to disprove "erroneous interpretations of Scripture", such as: "outter-space, sphere, and atmosphere. None of which are valid. As for my interpretations, they are all found in Strong's, in Hebrew:

רָקִיעַ the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it,

מַ֫יִם waters, water
[חוּג] verb draw round, make a circle (Aramaic

circumivit; noun

, חוּגְתָּא, circle, vault of heavens)

 

[Blain]

You can't use Scripture the disprove Scripture. That is why you have to resort to the things of the world, the traditions of men and your own understanding. The Word says: "waters above the firmament" and "circle on the face of the deep". You have to live with it:

Proverbs 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.


I said the KJV is the Word of God, The Holy Bible. I didn't say "exclusive" anywhere. I can use all other translations, they all go back to the same hebrew words. What is your problem with the KJV beeing the Word of God? I don't know Hebrew. Does that mean I can't read the Word of God?

I don't have to resort to using scripture your logic falls on itself, yes scripture mentions the earth as a circle what it fails to mention is whether it is a flat one or not now doesn't it? You assume it means flat but what if it didn't mean flat after all it never said flat did it a sphere is also a circle after all, as for your whole waters thing perhaps I am missing something here but what does that have to do with it being flat or not I must have missed that part. Needless to say you can call it whatever you want but you know God gave man kind common sense it would not be wise to throw it out the window. Believing in scripture is good yes but God doesn't contradict himself the universe works in a certain order as he ordained it to your body works in a certain way as he ordained it to this is not mans tradition or worldly means it is just how God chose things to work

 

[DanielLL]

scripture mentions the earth as a circle what it fails to mention is whether it is a flat one or not now doesn't it?

A circle is a flat two dimentional geometric figure. Scripture doesn't mention if the circle is "not flat" because a circle can only be flat. There is no such thing as a "not flat" circle.
Scripture confirms it is a flat circle, in context, "circle" is a geometric figure, and "In solid geometry, a face is a flat surface" -wiki

a sphere is also a circle

No, you can see a circle around the sphere, but they are not the same. There is a sphere which is three dimentional, and the circle around the sphere which is two dimentional. That is why we have two different words, because they are distinct and different.

 

[Blain]

A circle is a flat two dimentional geometric figure. Scripture doesn't mention if the circle is "not flat" because a circle can only be flat. There is no such thing as a "not flat" circle.
Scripture confirms it is a flat circle, in context, "circle" is a geometric figure, and "In solid geometry, a face is a flat surface" -wiki


No, you can see a circle around the sphere, but they are not the same. There is a sphere which is three dimentional, and the circle around the sphere which is two dimentional. That is why we have two different words, because they are distinct and different.

A circle is a flat two dimentional geometric figure. Scripture doesn't mention if the circle is "not flat" because a circle can only be flat. There is no such thing as a "not flat" circle.
Scripture confirms it is a flat circle, in context, "circle" is a geometric figure, and "In solid geometry, a face is a flat surface" -wiki


No, you can see a circle around the sphere, but they are not the same. There is a sphere which is three dimentional, and the circle around the sphere which is two dimentional. That is why we have two different words, because they are distinct and different.

Even if if you can only have a circle a circle around a sphere to the writers in the day it was written it was likely the same thing, you have to understand that the bible was not written as a geographic book that was not it's intended purpose sphere or circle

A circle is a flat two dimentional geometric figure. Scripture doesn't mention if the circle is "not flat" because a circle can only be flat. There is no such thing as a "not flat" circle.
Scripture confirms it is a flat circle, in context, "circle" is a geometric figure, and "In solid geometry, a face is a flat surface" -wiki


No, you can see a circle around the sphere, but they are not the same. There is a sphere which is three dimentional, and the circle around the sphere which is two dimentional. That is why we have two different words, because they are distinct and different.

Ok then lets go this route yes it does say circle but you know how I said the bible opens up in a whole new way in the original text and how the kjb is good but still doesn't compare to the original text? this is why

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in" (Isaiah 40:22). take this verse now take the word circle and translate it into the hrbrew word for circle chuwg which means round rounded or dome shaped

 

[DanielLL]

to the writers in the day it was written it was likely the same thing

The Writter is the Holy Spirit thru the hand of man, the Holy Spirit knows very well the difference between circle and sphere, how can you try to say circle and sphere "likely" meant the same thing to the Holy Spirit back in the day? Friend, I think we can stop here, I don't want you blaspheming, so you can give it some time to process the information and decide later, it is no big deal.

He who sits above the circle of the earth

Another great example the earth is a circle, this is the Hebrew circle, it means circle, just like the English circle, they are the same, circle:
[חוּג] verb draw round, make a circle (Aramaic

circumivit; noun

, חוּגְתָּא, circle, vault of heavens)

Are you trying to say the Hebrew circle is different from the English circle?

 

[Oblio]

Firmamental!

 

[Oblio]

Firmamental!

 

[Magenta]

רָקִיעַ the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it,

רָקִיעַ
7549. raqia ►

Strong's Concordance
raqia: an extended surface, expanse

Original Word: רָקִיעַ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: raqia
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-kee'-ah)
Definition: an extended surface, expanse

Air pressure is not a "solid," but capable of elevating solids.

 

[Blain]

The Writter is the Holy Spirit thru the hand of man, the Holy Spirit knows very well the difference between circle and sphere, how can you try to say circle and sphere "likely" meant the same thing to the Holy Spirit back in the day? Friend, I think we can stop here, I don't want you blaspheming, so you can give it some time to process the information and decide later, it is no big deal.


Another great example the earth is a circle, this is the Hebrew circle, it means circle, just like the English circle, they are the same, circle:
[חוּג] verb draw round, make a circle (Aramaic

circumivit; noun

, חוּגְתָּא, circle, vault of heavens)

Are you trying to say the Hebrew circle is different from the English circle?

Yes the writer was the holy spirit but who was it written to? Isaiah was speaking to the Jews at the time of writing this and would speak to them in how they would understand just as how he would speak and write to them in their native language he also would be writing to them and for them yes we can read and the scriptures can speak to us the same but the wording is used specifically for a specific audience

Now as for your image that is aramaic firstly not hebrew they are not the same second I am saying that the hebrew word for circle has a deeper meaning to it and means something different than the english word does as do all of the hebrew texts, any word you can think of in the english language the hebrew word for it has a deeper and richer meaning to it

 

[Blain]

The Writter is the Holy Spirit thru the hand of man, the Holy Spirit knows very well the difference between circle and sphere, how can you try to say circle and sphere "likely" meant the same thing to the Holy Spirit back in the day? Friend, I think we can stop here, I don't want you blaspheming, so you can give it some time to process the information and decide later, it is no big deal.


Another great example the earth is a circle, this is the Hebrew circle, it means circle, just like the English circle, they are the same, circle:
[חוּג] verb draw round, make a circle (Aramaic

circumivit; noun

, חוּגְתָּא, circle, vault of heavens)

Are you trying to say the Hebrew circle is different from the English circle?

actually upon further inspection it is hebrew that was my bad, however did you happen to look a little deeper into the word you used here? the first one does mean to draw round make a circle however did you continue to read on in the definition?

The word is חוּג which is generally translated as circle, but can also be translated as orb or sphere. · It is even sometimes used to refer to the horizon

 

[Blain]

actually upon further inspection it is hebrew that was my bad, however did you happen to look a little deeper into the word you used here? the first one does mean to draw round make a circle however did you continue to read on in the definition?

The word is חוּג and is sometimes translated as chug which is generally translated as circle, but can also be translated as orb or sphere. · It is even sometimes used to refer to the horizon

 

[Clermont1029]

For the record we do not feel attacked by @DanielLL in fact at the beginning he was the one on the attacking position though I will give him credit for being less hostile than he was before. The issue is that we are using sound logic to make our points he is not many have tried to reason with him, you see a person being harassed by others but try to see it from our perspective as people who simply have been trying to reason with an unreasonable person. imagine being in our shoes trying to make your point giving your evidence but no amount is ever enough and is just rejected tossed aside and you are called a fool with scripture you are accused of rejected the word of God simply because you do not agree with a persons view or use of scripture

Now as far as nasa doctoring images I have not seen this what doctored picture are you speaking of?

Every photo of the earth from space has been doctored. There is no photo of the earth from space that has not been.
I just know that as christians we all need to stick together. Their are so many minor differences in how scriptures are interpreted. We need to agree Jesus is how we receive salvation, Jesus died on the cross for our sins, Jesus is God, was born of virgin birth. We can not allow sin into the church and I’m sure there are a couple other things that are part of the main doctrine. I just know true Christians need to unite and not fight over differences of opinion especially at this time. Just agree to disagree and focus on Jesus.

 

[Blain]

Every photo of the earth from space has been doctored. There is no photo of the earth from space that has not been.
I just know that as christians we all need to stick together. Their are so many minor differences in how scriptures are interpreted. We need to agree Jesus is how we receive salvation, Jesus died on the cross for our sins, Jesus is God, was born of virgin birth. We can not allow sin into the church and I’m sure there are a couple other things that are part of the main doctrine. I just know true Christians need to unite and not fight over differences of opinion especially at this time. Just agree to disagree and focus on Jesus.

Yes I have heard this before but what evidence that they have been doctored is there? How can you tell a real photo from a fake? have you actually done the research and proven they are fake for yourself or have you just gone off of what others have said? See I am one for evidence if one is to make such claims I want to know what evidence they have to believe this what brought them to their conclusion what research did they do to be able to prove it

There is a science to prove a fake from a real one and I know how to detect it my question is do you and if not how do you know for a fact every image has been doctored? But my friend something you will learn is that in the bible discussion forum there are many debates not all are civil I understand trying to be the peace maker I have tried many times as well and on occasion still try but debating is also not always a bad thing in fact it is in debates that I personally grew the most as a believer. We can debate and even disagree so long as we do so in a mature and Christ like manner ones patience and love for others is put to the test in debates their morality and standards will be shown in the words they speak and how they react to others if they cannot respond in a Christ like manner calmly and maturely then it would be wise to leave that discusssion until they can gather themselves.

Do not be afraid of debates rather see them as a growing tool, see what not to do how not to respond see how others act and take note of those who you should avoid and those you should stick close to in order to help you grow. Unity is simply not a possibility until Christ returns because there are so many with different opposing views and understanding but we can disagree and still treat each other as we should there is even a person on here who I do not agree with on a certain matter and yet am good friends with

 

[DanielLL]

Air pressure is not a "solid," but capable of elevating solids.

"Air Pressure" is your own understanding, if you scroll down, Strong's specifies depending on the verse the word is used, for example, in Genesis 1:6:

2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6

Are you saying the Hebrews were wrong all along?

 

[Magenta]

"Air Pressure" is your own understanding, if you scroll down, Strong's specifies depending on the verse the word is used, for example, in Genesis 1:6:

2 the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6

Are you saying the Hebrews were wrong all along?

Air pressure is a verifiable reality. The fact that air can support solids does not make air itself a solid.

רָקִיעַ means an extended surface, or expanse.

 

[DanielLL]

Air pressure is a verifiable reality.

Luke 17:20 [...]The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Proverbs 3:7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

It doesn't matter what your eyes can "verify", Truth is the Word, not "verifiable reality". Because Heaven and Earth will pass away, but His Word will not pass away. And the Word is: FIRMAMENTUM, Solid since the times of the Hebrews.

specific audience

Genesis was written by Hebrews for Hebrews, same with Proverbs.

the hebrew word for it has a deeper and richer meaning to it

Well, how am I to believe you and your "deeper meaning", over the Word? Do you have a second witness? Anything at all to make your case? -Also, "deeper meaning" is not caracteristic of the Word, because the Word is understood even by children:

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So, whatever "deeper meaning" you have, it must be understood by children.

 

[Magenta]

FIRMAMENTUM, Solid since the times of the Hebrews.

רָקִיעַ means an extended surface, or expanse. Raqia comes from the Hebrew verb raqa, which means "beat," "stamp," "beat out" and "spread out," and does not necessarily refer to the beating out of a solid object, but to a spreading out process, whether the object is solid or not.

Are you saying the Hebrews were wrong all along?

Are you suggesting that the Hebrews were right about everything all the time? Gosh. Read your Bible.

 

[DanielLL]

רָקִיעַ means an extended surface, or expanse.

There are many "extended surfaces", and many "expanses", this is not specific. That is why every word in Strong's is then organized depending on the context, for example in the context of Genesis 1:6, the word means: the vault of heaven, or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it.
You can't ignore context, you can't reduce a word to only it's isolated meaning, I know you don't do this with other words. For example:
Jesus said to eat His flesh, so if you were consistent, you would have to eat His literal flesh. Flesh does mean flesh after all, doesn't it?
That is why Strong specifies depending on the context, and the verse: figurative discourse, to appropriate to oneself the saving results of the violent death endured by Christ, John 6:52-56.

Are you suggesting that the Hebrews were right about everything all the time?

Not all the time, but they were right about Hebrew at the very least. They definitely knew Hebrew better than you.
So, you believe them when they say "expanse", but not when they say it is "solid". You pick and choose, right?

 

[Dino246]

And the Word is: FIRMAMENTUM, Solid since the times of the Hebrews.

I trust you are aware that "firmament" is a transliteration from the Latin Vulgate, which was translated from the Greek Septuagint because Jerome could not read Hebrew.

The word had no meaning in English prior to the 1611 publication of the KJV. It is, frankly, silly to ascribe so much to it without being absolutely certain of its meaning in Hebrew first.

It's not at all a matter of rejecting the word (as you previously accused me of doing), but of subjecting it to rigorous examination.

 

[DanielLL]

It's not at all a matter of rejecting the word (as you previously accused me of doing), but of subjecting it to rigorous examination.

No, you don't subject the Word, the Word subjects you:

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

-You don't accept the Word after "rigorous examination", you receive the Word and don't resist:

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

-There is nothing in the Word worthy of "rigorous examination", because all the Word is plain:

Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

-That is why even the children can understand the Word:

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

-Wisdom and knowledge come from the Lord, not from your "rigorous examination":

Proverbs 2:6 For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.