Faith and Deeds

[KelbyofGod]

I said what i meant

a byproduct of faith is salvation, another byproduct of faith is works. Faith is the root cause of both, thus boh are independent on fath,

take faith away, you have no salvation, and you have no works (james called this a dead faith) thus, a lack of works is not proof of lack of salvation, it is proof of lack of faith, also, lack of salvation is not proof of lack of works, lack of salvation is proof of lack of faith.

faith is the key word, not salvation and not works.

This isn't an attempt to start an argument, it's just to clarify in case I'm hearing something you don't intend to say.

According to what you said in blue underlined...Lack of faith=no salvation.
According to what you said in black underlined...Lack of works = Lack of faith.
This means you are declaring Lack of works= no salvation
( Because two things equal to a third are equal to each other)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Honestly please forgive me if that was indeed what you were trying to prove.

 

[mailmandan]

I'll start here. The believer is fully, completely, and perfectly justified the moment he/she trusted the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no bringing to maturity of justification. Those carnal, baby Corinthian believers were justified. Why? Because they had believed the gospel and were in Christ.

I agree. We are justified by faith in Christ, whether we are babes in Christ or mature believers. I was not implying that Abraham was finally justified in the “sense” that he was accounted as righteous based on his works. That’s not what faith made perfect or complete by works means.

 

[mailmandan]

Not true. Straw man argument

Absolutely true. I’ve had numerous discussions with works-salvationists over the years on multiple Christian forums who try to make a distinction between good works and works of the law and claim we are saved by “these” works and just not “those” works.

 

[Lewiz]

I said what i meant

a byproduct of faith is salvation, another byproduct of faith is works. Faith is the root cause of both, thus boh are dependent on faith,

There, fixed it for ya.

take faith away, you have no salvation, and you have no works (james called this a dead faith) thus, 1 a lack of works is not proof of lack of salvation, it is proof of lack of faith, also, 2 lack of salvation is not proof of lack of works, lack of salvation is proof of lack of faith.

faith is the key word, not salvation and not works.

1. Actually, that's only true if the believer repents & starts believing again. If he doesn't, he could forfeit his salvation by breaking the covenant.

2. A lack of works is evidence of a lack of faith, & its longevity determines whether the covenant is broken or not. God alone decides when that happens.

 

[Lewiz]

I'm really not interested in your scripture twisting, your slanderous accusations or your perverted gospel. Go waste someone else's time with your trickery and deceit. You are not fooling me.

He said you were angry & needed to change your religion, & you say he's twisting scripture, slandering, accusing, perverted, & uses trickery & deceit.

Sounds like you are angry, & took the opportunity to attack him.

Sure looks like Studyman was right.

 

[Lewiz]

*See post #175.

Yep, overlooked the evidence again. That's what happens when there's no evidence to the contrary.

So much for "justified by works" = saved by works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Being justified by faith includes the evidence/proof of works.

Again, you intentionally twist what we say to your own liking.

 

[Lewiz]

Absolutely true. I’ve had numerous discussions with works-salvationists over the years on multiple Christian forums who try to make a distinction between good works and works of the law and claim we are saved by “these” works and just not “those” works.

Disobedience is a sin. Continued, intentional disobedience can break the Covenant & cause the person to lose his salvation.

It's not my fault you slander & call us works-salvationists.

I didn't make you do that.

Obedience requires works.

Do you think the readers are dense & you can convince them that all NT obedience is only believing in Jesus?

 

[mailmandan]

He said you were angry & needed to change your religion, & you say he's twisting scripture, slandering, accusing, perverted, & uses trickery & deceit.

Sounds like you are angry, & took the opportunity to attack him.

Sure looks like Studyman was right.

You have not read all of our discussions, so you are not getting the big picture from just one post. I have no religion to change. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, which is what Christianity is about. You don’t have to worry about me being angry. I’m good.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Someone might ask,where do we get faith,Is It man's faith or GOD's faith?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD.

 

[garee]

Someone might ask,where do we get faith,Is It man's faith or GOD's faith?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD.

Yes natural man the forward generation of Adam is born with "no faith", as in no way to see past the temporal but rather after the imaginations of a sinful heart.

 

[mailmandan]

To whom do we prove our justification? To whom do we "shown to be righteous"? Other people? God?

Some people will argue to other people, others will say to God and yet still others say both to other people and God. What say you? In James 2:18, we read - Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James' point is that the evidence of authentic faith is works. Now unlike man, God knows our heart and knows who truly has genuine faith and who does not, regardless of what they may claim.

1. What works prove that we are justified?
2. How often must these works be shown?

It's not about exactly what type of works or just how many works. The apostle Paul had a multitude of works to substantiate his faith, yet the thief on the cross who died the same day of his conversion, simply rebuked the other thief by asking him, "don't you fear God?" and proclaimed their guilt, while proclaiming the innocence of the Lord, then asked Jesus if He would remember him when He comes into His kingdom. That's all it took to demonstrate his faith. I think you are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.

Remember, James is answering the question: Can faith save him? Not, will works follow faith. Paul says over and over that salvation has no works attached whatsoever, to gain salvation or to prove salvation. A believer can live a carnal, worldly life, void of good works and be saved. They will lose rewards and inheritance.

James asked the question, "what good is it if someone says-claims he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?" What kind of faith is that, which produces no works at all? Empty profession of faith, dead faith. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. Genuine faith is never completely void of works, yet we are still saved through faith, not works.

 

[mailmandan]

Disobedience is a sin. Continued, intentional disobedience can break the Covenant & cause the person to lose his salvation.

Yes, disobedience is sin and continued, intentional disobedience is not descriptive of those who are born of God (1 John 3:7-10). Show me under the New Covenant where you find the words "break the Covenant" and "lose salvation." Why are you so obsessed with the topic of losing salvation?

It's not my fault you slander & call us works-salvationists.

Who is "us?" I didn't slander. If someone is trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, then they are not a works-salvationists, but if someone is trusting in works also (even just in part) for salvation, then they are a works-salvationists. Which one describes you? I myself am trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation and not in my works. Saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). It is what it is.

BTW I came across another quote from a works-salvationist in a previous discussion that I had. He said: "It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us." My question to him was, "so how many works of obedience must we accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us?" Of course, he had no answer.

I didn't make you do that.

You didn't make me do what?

Obedience requires works.

Absolutely and obedience is works. Are we saved through faith or by works? What say you?

Do you think the readers are dense & you can convince them that all NT obedience is only believing in Jesus?

Believing in Jesus is faith and obedience which follows is works. Do you believe that Jesus saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone (Romans 3:22-28) or do you believe that it's ALSO based on the merits of our obedience/works? My faith trusts 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Someone might ask,where do we get faith,Is It man's faith or GOD's faith?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the WORD of GOD.

Yes, faith does come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Now although it is our responsibility to choose to believe/place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision.

Unless the Father draws us and enables us, we would NEVER come to believe/place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation all by ourselves. (John 6:44,65).

The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. It's our faith. In 1 Peter 1:9, we read - "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls." The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God, but God does not believe for us or force us to believe.

 

[mailmandan]

Yep, overlooked the evidence again. That's what happens when there's no evidence to the contrary.

Yes, you did overlook the evidence.

Being justified by faith includes the evidence/proof of works.

Justified, as in "accounted as righteous" by faith includes works? Are you saying that we are saved by faith AND works? Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. We are "accounted as righteous" by faith "apart from works" (Romans 4:2-3) and we are "shown to be righteous" by works (James 2:14-24). Did Paul say justified by faith AND works in Romans 5:1? hmm..

Again, you intentionally twist what we say to your own liking.

What did I twist? Who is "we?"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This isn't an attempt to start an argument, it's just to clarify in case I'm hearing something you don't intend to say.

According to what you said in blue underlined...Lack of faith=no salvation.
According to what you said in black underlined...Lack of works = Lack of faith.
This means you are declaring Lack of works= no salvation
( Because two things equal to a third are equal to each other)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Honestly please forgive me if that was indeed what you were trying to prove.

You could say this, but why would you?

The point is faith or no faith. Works have no part of the equation.

How can you tell if a person who is going to church, Praying, Seems to be serving others (what we would call works) is saved? You can't, in fact, Jesus said on that day that many will come in his name, declaring all their works

Matt 7: 22
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

Yet even though most likely you and I would say these were great men of God, able to do all these great works. Yet Jesus will say

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So you see on the outside, they looked clean, we all thought they were saved, Yet in reality, they practiced sin, They just did it in private (much like the pharisees and religious Jews) because they were not saved, why?

THEY HAD NO FAITH.

so how can works be proof one has faith and is really saved, When we have seen examples of people who had works (even look at Judas, he did works with Christ) yet were never saved.

Faith is the true decider of who has salvation

if anything we can put it this way...

faith produces salvation, salvation (by the power of the spirit given to us, and Gods love being poured out on us) produces works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Absolutely true. I’ve had numerous discussions with works-salvationists over the years on multiple Christian forums who try to make a distinction between good works and works of the law and claim we are saved by “these” works and just not “those” works.

Just look at threads the past few days, people have stated that very thing, its there for all to see.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. Actually, that's only true if the believer repents & starts believing again. If he doesn't, he could forfeit his salvation by breaking the covenant.

If this is true, we are under law not under grace. And according to the law, we are all unqualified. But hey, if you want to be under law. Go for it.

2. A lack of works is evidence of a lack of faith, & its longevity determines whether the covenant is broken or not. God alone decides when that happens.

Wrong again

Whoever sins has never seen god or known him (the apostle john) so if this is the case. It does not matter what works anyone has done, A perosn who is living in sin has never met God personally in a father son relationship. They have always been sinners (even though on the outside they may appear to be children)

Faith is the key word, Not work or lack of, period.

 

[mailmandan]

Just look at threads the past few days, people have stated that very thing, its there for all to see.

At least for those who have eyes to see.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Disobedience is a sin. Continued, intentional disobedience can break the Covenant & cause the person to lose his salvation.

It's not my fault you slander & call us works-salvationists.

I didn't make you do that.

Obedience IS works.

Wrong, John says whoever sins has NEVER SEEN GOD.

You say whoever falls into sin has broken the covenant.

ps. fixed it for you

Do you think the readers are dense & you can convince them that all NT obedience is only believing in Jesus?

Do you think readers are dense that thay will listen to you and not John?

 

[John146]

Yep, overlooked the evidence again. That's what happens when there's no evidence to the contrary.

Being justified by faith includes the evidence/proof of works.

I agree. We are justified by faith. And faith must be supported by evidence through obedience.

But, herein lies the difference. The faith that justifies is not our individual faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Where's the evidence of Christ's faith? Look no further than His spotless life and obedience unto death, even the death of the cross.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

That's the faith that justifies the believer! Not our puny, wavering faith.