Faith and Deeds

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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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One can't have faith without demonstrating it, can he?

Otherwise he's only saying he has it.
You are correct. Do you see the importance of the phrase "faith of Christ"? It's Christ's faith that justifies the believer. This eliminates all works for salvation.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
5,190
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Whaaaaat?!?
Not true. James was written somewhere between late first century & early second century.

So, noooo, it wasn't written to Jews under the Law. That would have have been sin, for Jesus had already died & ushered in the New Covenant.
When was revelation written? What time period is it pointing to? Future, correct?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,640
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Do you see the importance of the phrase "faith of Christ"? It's Christ's faith that justifies the believer.
While the Greek has "faith of Jesus Christ" almost every translation -- including the KJV 2000 -- has faith "in" Jesus Christ for Rom 3:22.

King James 2000 Bible
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.


This corresponds to "Believe ON th Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved". Generally Scripture says that we believe "in" or "on" Jesus Christ. Which means we believe everything that the Bible says about Him and we place our faith in Him and His finished work of redemption.

1 JOHN 5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him....

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Typical long winded post from you, full of scripture twisting and propaganda. :rolleyes:

Your twisted implication here seems to be that only YOU have denied yourself and follow Him and His instructions perfectly and will qualify for heaven under those terms, while the rest of us will be disqualified for heaven because we follow religious traditions of man. This is the same old straw man argument that you continue to try and sell, but I'm not buying it and neither are any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat.

Genesis 15:6 and Romans 4:2-3 explain how Abraham became righteous. It was because he BELIEVED IN THE LORD/BELIEVED GOD and its was accounted to him for righteousness.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Action does not change belief into faith and action does not establish faith. More works-salvation confusion! The word "believe" can describe mere "mental assent" belief, as in James 2:19 or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ/believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, then you are trusting in Him as the all sufficient means of your salvation. This belief results in actions appropriate to the belief (all Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief. :rolleyes:

It's your "religious traditions" sales pitch and judaizing doctrine that is very tricky and deceptive. Just because the Pharisees added their own traditions to the law does not mean born again Christians do.

Blessed is one thing and accounted as righteous is another. You continue to define faith "as" obedience/works, just as ALL works-salvationists do, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and SDA's. *This is the very HEART of your ERROR!

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. *Nothing there about faith is multiple acts of obedience/works. In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurrences that is was "by" or "out of" faith, not faith is in essence, these acts of obedience/works. Their faith was genuine and it was shown by their actions (works) so all of these works accomplished in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, but those works are not the essence of faith, only the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some time later, based on the merit of works. Faith is the root of salvation and acts of obedience/works which follow are the fruit.

I have noticed that works-salvationists accuse others of transgressing God's Commandments and imply they will be saved based on the merits of obeying God's Commandments and misunderstand the simple Biblical truth about Abraham (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-6).

I can accept it. As I have already explained numerous times, in James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

*Remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

I said that Abraham was "accounted as righteous" based on his faith and not his works, as we clearly read in Romans 4:2-3.

You can criticize and condemn these people all you like, but you are no better than any of these people with your perverted gospel of salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works." You seem to enjoy labeling everyone else as transgressing the Commandments of God and claiming for yourself to have obeyed the Commandments of God and will qualify for heaven under those terms.

You have a serious PRIDE issue! :(

Difference in style from others you condemn, but same in substance. WORKS BASED FALSE GOSPEL. Learn the difference between faith and works, blessings received based on obedience and salvation through faith.

This is the same verse that works-salvationists (including Roman Catholics, Mormons, SDA's etc..) quote in their quest to try and prove that salvation is by works. 3 For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. 4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed. This was many years AFTER Abraham believed in the Lord/believed God and his faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3).

I have no religious traditions and there is a distinction between faith and works of obedience which "follow" and are produced "out of" faith. The Bible clearly makes a distinction between faith AND works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; James 2:14 etc..). You have to make no distinction whatsoever between faith and obedience/works, not because of the Bibles teaching, but because of your perverted gospel. You are not fooling me.

Abraham believed God and it was called faith. Abraham followed God's instructions and it was called obedience/works.

He believed in God, trusted in God. The demons merely believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation and neither do works-salvationists.

Obedience is the demonstrative evidence of faith, but not the essence of faith. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is not an example of faith no matter how much so called obedience that someone attempts to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on the merit of works/law keeping etc..

Another example of how works-salvationists twist the scriptures and confuse faith with obedience/works. Romans 10:16 is another example as well. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Campbellites use this verse to erroneously teach that we obey the gospel by receiving water baptism. Yet we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel.

Doing works meet for repentance is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8) not the essence of repentance (change of mind). Works-salvationists confuse the fruit of repentance/faith with the essence of repentance/faith, as you have just demonstrated. Your true colors are really showing now!

This is your continued straw man argument. Perverting the gospel by teaching salvation by works is neither works worthy of repentance or the faith of Abraham. It sounds to me like you are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. It's a real shame to see so much zeal wasted on UNBELIEF (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). :(
It's not that I don't believe the scriptures because I do. I just don't believe in your ancient religious traditions and doctrines of man.

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my (Word which became Flesh) voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Rom. 2:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Like Abraham)

James 1:
22 But be ye doers of the word (Like Abraham), and not hearers only , deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Jer. 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Matt. 19:
17 And he said unto him,
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.(Like Abraham)

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Like Abraham)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (As it was with Abraham and Zechariahs)

I don't believe repentance and the Works worthy of repentance is done for me by Jesus as you preach. He Helps when I "Turn to Him", but Paul said it was MY RACE, He doesn't run it for me.

I don't believe your preaching, and EG's, that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by Loving God with all their heart, soul and mind, and loving their neighbor as themselves as the "letter of the Law of Moses" commanded. Zechariahs did, and He knew Jesus, but the Pharisees didn't know Jesus. You have ignored my attempts to discuss this Biblical fact with you, and have rejected the Bible which exposes this part of your doctrine as false..


I don't believe Jesus instructed you to reject His fathers Commandments and create your own, or follow the ancient religious traditions of the land, or acknowledge and or create images of God after the likeness of man. Yet that is what you do and have pleasure in others that do as well..

Not an insult, just a fact. You preach to transgress God's Commandments by your religious traditions. You don't think so, any more that the Pharisees thought so. But you do. I'm telling you this and have shown in scriptures, many times, in order to maybe spark you to look into it. But as the Word which became Flesh prophesied. "but they said: "We will not walk therein".

I can't ignore the Fact that Jesus said "many" would come in His name and deceive "many". I can't believe after all these years of deceiving people into rejecting God's Words, and disobeying Him as it did the Pharisees , that now, all the sudden, the deceiver is tricking people into obeying God, and not rejecting His Word's.

Yet that is exactly what you guys imply when you accuse those who strive to live by ALL the Word's of God, not just those in the sermons you copy and paste from.

We will just continue to disagree. You will continue to follow your religious traditions of this land, and I will continue to show Jesus' warnings against doing such things.

Just remember, it isn't like someone didn't try and tell you.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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You are correct. Do you see the importance of the phrase "faith of Christ"? It's Christ's faith that justifies the believer. This eliminates all works for salvation.
Christ's death justifies believers.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
5,190
228
63
While the Greek has "faith of Jesus Christ" almost every translation -- including the KJV 2000 -- has faith "in" Jesus Christ for Rom 3:22.

King James 2000 Bible
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.


This corresponds to "Believe ON th Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved". Generally Scripture says that we believe "in" or "on" Jesus Christ. Which means we believe everything that the Bible says about Him and we place our faith in Him and His finished work of redemption.

1 JOHN 5

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him....

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Satan knows the importance of this doctrine and has worked hard to erase it from the bible. I am certain it is not taught in modern day seminaries and is rarely preached in the church today.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
20,176
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One can't have faith without demonstrating it, can he?

Otherwise he's only saying he has it.
the definition of "demonstrating" that matters is God's definition, not mankind's.

i don't believe mankind is capable of observing/detecting all the relevant information necessary to judge, in this case.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,640
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Christ's death justifies believers.
If we wish to be biblically accurate it is GOD'S GRACE which justifies the sinner.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:1, 2).

That grace is available solely because of the finished atoning work of Christ. Therefore when our faith is in Christ and His finished work of redemption, God imputes the righteousness of Christ BY HIS GRACE to us. As Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, we believe God's record of His Son and thus He imputes righteousness to us.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (1 Jn 5:11)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
5,190
228
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If we wish to be biblically accurate it is GOD'S GRACE which justifies the sinner.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. (Rom 5:1, 2).

That grace is available solely because of the finished atoning work of Christ. Therefore when our faith is in Christ and His finished work of redemption, God imputes the righteousness of Christ BY HIS GRACE to us. As Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, we believe God's record of His Son and thus He imputes righteousness to us.

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (1 Jn 5:11)
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
Apr 1, 2018
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The meaning here is, that faith which does not produce good works, will save no man, for it is not genuine faith.
 
Apr 1, 2018
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In the first part of this great passage we get context.

1. The context are people who CLAIM to have faith (it never said they had faith, it was a claimed faith)
2. these people who claimed to have faith, had no works whatsoever, they were hearers of the word, but not doers
3. the question, can this CLAIMED faith save them?




he further shows how they are hearers but not doers, then he goes on to say prove your faith apart from your deed, i will show you my faith by what i do (i am not a hearer only, but i trust what i read, and i do it.

he goes to show you believem you have a good start, even demons believe what profit did belief do for them?




history

1. abraham was declaired righteous in gen 15, decades before he offered Issaac, so he was already saved before 1 work
2. Abrahams faith was proven when he offered his son. But also remember, in between this time abraham commited many sins, and had many victories,
3. Since faith alone is called a claimed faith or a dead faith, there is no such thing as faith alone, abraham proved it, so has James. So has all who ever has been saved by true faith. Since true faith produces work. True faith will never be alone.

However, james did not contradict paul in rom 4,they are in agreement.
Well said.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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The actual question James is answering in chapter 2 is NOT will works follow faith, but can faith save him?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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The actual question James is answering in chapter 2 is NOT will works follow faith, but can faith save him?
That's actually not what James said at the end of verse 16. He said, "What is the gain?" In other words, what does it profit to say you believe, but don't obey the faith. And the answer is, there is no profit to a vain profession of faith.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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That's actually not what James said at the end of verse 16. He said, "What is the gain?" In other words, what does it profit to say you believe, but don't obey the faith. And the answer is, there is no profit to a vain profession of faith.
Oh I see, verse 14. Yes, it does actually say "Can the faith save him?"
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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It's not that I don't believe the scriptures because I do. I just don't believe in your ancient religious traditions and doctrines of man.

Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my (Word which became Flesh) voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Rom. 2:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Like Abraham)

James 1:
22 But be ye doers of the word (Like Abraham), and not hearers only , deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Jer. 17:
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Matt. 19:
17 And he said unto him,
Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.(Like Abraham)

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Like Abraham)
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (As it was with Abraham and Zechariahs)

I don't believe repentance and the Works worthy of repentance is done for me by Jesus as you preach. He Helps when I "Turn to Him", but Paul said it was MY RACE, He doesn't run it for me.

I don't believe your preaching, and EG's, that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by Loving God with all their heart, soul and mind, and loving their neighbor as themselves as the "letter of the Law of Moses" commanded. Zechariahs did, and He knew Jesus, but the Pharisees didn't know Jesus. You have ignored my attempts to discuss this Biblical fact with you, and have rejected the Bible which exposes this part of your doctrine as false..

I don't believe Jesus instructed you to reject His fathers Commandments and create your own, or follow the ancient religious traditions of the land, or acknowledge and or create images of God after the likeness of man. Yet that is what you do and have pleasure in others that do as well..

Not an insult, just a fact. You preach to transgress God's Commandments by your religious traditions. You don't think so, any more that the Pharisees thought so. But you do. I'm telling you this and have shown in scriptures, many times, in order to maybe spark you to look into it. But as the Word which became Flesh prophesied. "but they said: "We will not walk therein".

I can't ignore the Fact that Jesus said "many" would come in His name and deceive "many". I can't believe after all these years of deceiving people into rejecting God's Words, and disobeying Him as it did the Pharisees , that now, all the sudden, the deceiver is tricking people into obeying God, and not rejecting His Word's.

Yet that is exactly what you guys imply when you accuse those who strive to live by ALL the Word's of God, not just those in the sermons you copy and paste from.

We will just continue to disagree. You will continue to follow your religious traditions of this land, and I will continue to show Jesus' warnings against doing such things.

Just remember, it isn't like someone didn't try and tell you.
Both me and my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat are sick of your continuous straw man arguments and false accusations! Preaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" is not striving to live by ALL the Word's of God, but is PERVERTING THE GOSPEL. You only believe your twisted interpretation of the scriptures and are only fooling yourself.

You are under the same self righteous delusion that LGF was under in regards to receiving eternal life based on the merits of obeying the Commandments. It's obvious from the scriptures that you quoted above and twisted to try and make them accommodate your "works based" false gospel and from your numerous, other posts. Many of us on Christian Chat have tried to explain the truth to you from the scriptures, but have only ended up wasting our time beating a dead horse. :(

You preach to transgress God's Commandments by your religious traditions.
It's possible for you to dream up just about any slanderous accusation in your delusional world of UNBELIEF (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). :rolleyes:

*You are not fooling me or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat.*

I sincerely hope and pray that one day the blinders will be removed and
the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, will shine on you and that you will finally come to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16).

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.

Just remember, it isn't like someone didn't try and tell you.
BACK AT YOU.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
16,122
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The meaning here is, that faith which does not produce good works, will save no man, for it is not genuine faith.
Amen! If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works (James 2:14), then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
7,109
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ot true.
James was written somewhere between late first century & early second century.

So, noooo, it wasn't written to Jews under the Law. That would have have been sin, for Jesus had already died & ushered in the New Covenant.


The unbelieving Jew (no faith) deny Christ has come in the flesh .

It makes no difference as to when it was written to the Jews under law .The Jews that are not born again are still under the law . The letter of the law still kills, the unseen spirit understanding as the law of faith heals and creates new life that could never die
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
5,190
228
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Amen! If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works (James 2:14), then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith.
No amount of works justifies that a person has put their belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for sin.