Faith is a work.

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Eli12

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Jul 3, 2019
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Is it our faith? Is it our works? I believe the Scriptures are telling us it’s both. In the Christian east, we call it “Synergia.”

To the point. We don’t know if it’s only faith or if it’s only works. Scriptures are telling us it’s both. When it states one, it often follows with the other. Since we don’t know exactly how this works, we refer to it as a mystery of our faith, and go no further. We need not to.

In the words of C.S. Lewis, asking which one is more important is like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is more important.
Thank you for answering. I agree; it is a very good comparison.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Putting faith into action is a work, faith itself is a gift.

Faith is a conviction, a belief that the world is a particular way and God will respond to it
in specific actions and attitudes. One can see these things and still do nothing.
This would be passive faith, that has sight but no application.

Working faith, takes the knowledge of the situation and responds, and then sees things change.

Working faith always includes confession.

9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 19

Something changes in our hearts when we speak forth faith and put it into action.
If we could see the number of thoughts and options that go through the mind which lead to
nothing we would probably wonder who is truly in Christ and who is not.

The deception of the enemy is to say, it is enough to acknowledge God in your mind, without
anything outward, that is buying favour with God. So going to church, singing hymns, saying
the words in a book without faith or understanding, is enough.

I have sung hymns as an unbeliever and a believer, and the difference is my heart sings them
as a believer in praise and worship to the King of Kings. And I choose to sing them by myself,
in groups I desire to attend, to soak up the very heart of God and dwell in Him, Amen.

Praising God is great, praising God with faith is eternal.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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All christians, no matter how they think of themselves about salvation, will be judge by their works besides their faith in Jesus' blood.

Rom 2:6 And he will render to each one according to his works: 7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; 8 however, for those who are contentious and who disobey the truth but obey unrighteousness there will be wrath and anger, 9 tribulation and distress, upon the soul of every man who works what is injurious, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans then one might erroneously conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (verse 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of obtaining salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly not what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

... 14:10 (...) For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God
What will the works of believers determine at the judgment seat of Christ? 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”
... 19:8 Yes, it has been granted to her to be arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen, for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.”
... 20:12 (...) The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.
If works for believers will determine rewards and loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ (1 Corinthians 3:13-15), then what will works determine for unbelievers at the great white throne judgment? (Revelation 20:11-15) In Matthew 23:14, we read - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

If everyone, included real christians, will be before the seat of judgement then everyone will be judged, not matter their faith on Jesus' blood.
Yet the truth still remains: John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

FAITH is the first step
, WORKS after the faith are a must to be favored on the day of that trial.
Faith is not merely a first step to obtaining salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) It's not about must have works in order to be saved but will have works if we truly are saved. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

I am not diminishing the importance of faith ... some others are diminishing the importance of works.
Believers do not diminish the importance of works. We just put them in their proper place. Subsequent to obtaining salvation through faith -Ephesians 2:8-10. Works-salvationists put the cart before the horse and teach salvation by faith and works.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Tell me something: do you believe that these people here didn't put faith on Christ too?
These many people did not place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, but instead were trusting in their works to save them. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. (Matthew 7:23)

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
In regards to Matthew 7:21-23, (I will never forget, prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church) I read Matthew 7:22 and thought to myself, wow! These many people accomplished all of that, "prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and did many wonderful works" but that still was not "good enough?" Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be "good enough?" Such is the mindset of someone who believes that obtaining salvation is based on works.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

*John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

They were doing a lot of things on the name of Jesus ... That means they had a lot of faith on him.
If these many people had a lot of faith on Him, then they would not have been looking to their works for salvation and Jesus would not have said, "I NEVER knew you." John 3:18 - He who believes on Him is not condemned.. These many people will be condemned. What does that tell you about their so called faith? These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the righteousness of God which is by faith and the blood of Christ) was stained with sin, so their righteousness amounted to filthy rags. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

The last words Jesus said specified where the problem was: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’ . It was not faith what they lack, it was works.
They lacked authentic faith because Jesus NEVER knew them. John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people were not true converts.

*Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many "alleged" wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) in unbelievers, but instead He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ. Hence, "workers of iniquity."
 
Mar 14, 2011
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All christians, no matter how they think of themselves about salvation, will be judge by their works besides their faith in Jesus' blood.

Rom 2:6 And he will render to each one according to his works: 7 everlasting life to those who are seeking glory and honor and incorruptibleness by endurance in work that is good; 8 however, for those who are contentious and who disobey the truth but obey unrighteousness there will be wrath and anger, 9 tribulation and distress, upon the soul of every man who works what is injurious, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
... 14:10 (...) For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.”
... 19:8 Yes, it has been granted to her to be arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen, for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.”
... 20:12 (...) The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

If everyone, included real christians, will be before the seat of judgement then everyone will be judged, not matter their faith on Jesus'blood. FAITH is the first step, WORKS after the faith are a must to be favored on the day of that trial. I am not diminishing the importance of faith ... some others are diminishing the importance of works.
Christians will be judged at the bema seat

Not the great white throne.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I don't think so. They were doing a lot of things on the name of Jesus ... That means they had a lot of faith on him. The last words Jesus said specified where the problem was: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’ . It was not faith what they lack, it was works.
Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU.

It means HE NEVER KNEW THEM (they were never adopted into his family.

They did not have faith in jesus, they had faith in their works.. Thats WHY Jesus never knew them.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that works it in you.”

Holy Scriptures have a way of saying one followed by the other. Like nothing else in the Bible, this is not accidental.
Yep

WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION

You have already been saved, Now take that salvation, and work out what comes with it

NOT work to earn your salvation.

YOU CAN NOT EARN SALVATION NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Very true. We must do our part, though.
Your part is to come to the end of yourself and call out on the name of the lord.

Thats the ON:Y part you can play.

The tax collector went home justified. The religious worker went home condemned already,
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Absolutely, that’s what the Scriptures are telling us. We know what we must do, and we should go and do it. Who, and to what measure exactly, is behind all our actions is not for us to know. It is one of the mysteries of our faith.
Yep go do it

Believe in the name of Jesus you and your household. And you WILL be saved.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Yep

WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION

You have already been saved, Now take that salvation, and work out what comes with it

NOT work to earn your salvation.

YOU CAN NOT EARN SALVATION NO MATTER HOW HARD YOU TRY
Amen! Paul said to "work out" your salvation and not "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work towards bringing something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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You are not saying a thing about the Scriptures I cited before ... just going somewhere else.

Tell me something: do you believe that these people here didn't put faith on Christ too?

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
No the many in regard to faith was generated from their own selves and not Christs the mutual faith does works in all believers as a labor of His love.

for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Philippians 2:13

The bible inform us it is blasphemy to attribute the work of (generated from) Christ's faith in respect to oneself .It violates the first commandment.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Christians will be judged at the bema seat

Not the great white throne.
Really?....do you have scripture for this?....and which Bible?
Also, at which one are the 5 crowns awarded?
What does..... bema .......stand for/mean?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
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Really?....do you have scripture for this?....and which Bible?
Also, at which one are the 5 crowns awarded?
What does..... bema .......stand for/mean?
10 For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Rom 14

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
2 Cor 5

36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgement for every careless word they have spoken.
37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
Matt 12

Some believe believers will only have to face the judgement seat of Christ (bema) and not the final judgement.
But revelations says all face the judgement seat.

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Rev 20

15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire
Rev 20

These two verses imply all will be judged, though in Christ our repented sins have been washed away.
It is clear both believers and unbelievers are judged, because those not written in the book of life,
are thrown into the lake of fire. So obviously both are being judged else there is no need to reference
the book of life.

These folk are very scared and not sure where they really stand before the King. So they read quickly and
hope it will not contradict what they already know, which is truly a real fear we all carry. I know this fear,
and yet as I read and know more, the Lord lays more clearly His word and His intentions on my heart through
His word. In love if we walk in the Spirit there is now no condemnation for us in Christ Jesus.

Equally God sees us as we are as Paul says "What we are is plain to God"
It takes time to see the deluded and their fixations, jumping to conclusions before they know the word of
God in their hearts. As their hearts are hard, they are at the beginning anyway.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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10 For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Rom 14

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
2 Cor 5

36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgement for every careless word they have spoken.
37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
Matt 12

Some believe believers will only have to face the judgement seat of Christ (bema) and not the final judgement.
But revelations says all face the judgement seat.

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Rev 20

15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire
Rev 20

These two verses imply all will be judged, though in Christ our repented sins have been washed away.
It is clear both believers and unbelievers are judged, because those not written in the book of life,
are thrown into the lake of fire. So obviously both are being judged else there is no need to reference
the book of life.

These folk are very scared and not sure where they really stand before the King. So they read quickly and
hope it will not contradict what they already know, which is truly a real fear we all carry. I know this fear,
and yet as I read and know more, the Lord lays more clearly His word and His intentions on my heart through
His word. In love if we walk in the Spirit there is now no condemnation for us in Christ Jesus.

Equally God sees us as we are as Paul says "What we are is plain to God"
It takes time to see the deluded and their fixations, jumping to conclusions before they know the word of
God in their hearts. As their hearts are hard, they are at the beginning anyway.
Why didn't you answer my questions? The above post does not.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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Why didn't you answer my questions? The above post does not.
Sorry Preston. I was just answering the question about what bema stands for.
I do not know the rest or am interested in pursuing EG's views on it, :)
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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Why didn't you answer my questions? The above post does not.
Hi preston,

You made me think about what I regard EG & dc's position on things.
Gnostic ideas to me are heresy, and condemning believers disowns Christ.

If the tree is false, the rest is irrelevant. Jesus implied that He will curse such
trees as they do not have eternal fruit of the King and so will be destroyed.

Thankfully this is not in my hands or in my judgement, but in Gods hand and timing.
Some on cc can testify to coming out of such positions into love and freedom in
Christ, so I always hope that for everyone, but until the fruit appears, they are outsiders
looking in. God bless you
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Sorry Preston. I was just answering the question about what bema stands for.
I do not know the rest or am interested in pursuing EG's views on it, :)
Ok...understand...but, what does bema stand for?
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,199
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The concept of the Bema Seat comes from the ancient Olympics, where a judge would sit on the Bema Seat at the finish line. The judge's purpose was to determine what position the runners came in-first, second, and so on-and then to give out the appropriate rewards. That is the imagery behind what is known as the Bema Seat.

Also known as the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Bema Seat is described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." Your gold, silver, and costly stones are works done for the glory of God, with the right motive, and in dependence upon the power of the Holy Spirit.

https://www.allaboutgod.com/bema-seat.htm
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Really?....do you have scripture for this?....and which Bible?
Also, at which one are the 5 crowns awarded?
What does..... bema .......stand for/mean?

Look in 1 cor 3, where our works are judged, and we recieve gold silver precious stone wood hay straw.

The word judged there is in the greek BEMA.

Then look in rev, the great white throne judgment, Where EVERYONE who attends is cast into hell.

That word judged in this passage is in the greek “KRINO”