Faith is a work.

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#61
Is faith a work?
Then you could get more faith by working harder at faith.

How could you do this? By reading more scripture, by obedience, by praising or walking better
with God?

Our faith grows because God responds, because God does things that gives clarity and understanding
to who He is in our lives. Walking in faith, is trusting the thing that God has given us.

This logic would seem to mean, we actually have no control over how our faith grows, but it is God
who nurtures and helps us to grow in it.

At best by not putting into practice our faith, it can die.

29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
John 6

Gods work is for us to believe in Jesus.
Is there a difference between believing in Jesus and having faith in Jesus?

The aspect of believing someone is proving what they are saying is true.
This takes effort and putting things into practice and seeing the result.

Having faith in Jesus is about trust. I have faith that He will do what He has promised.
So we can work at the results of our belief, but you either believe someone or you do not.

You can interpret what they are saying, which bring about other implications.
Jesus in John 6:27 is saying they are following Him because he fed them not because it was
miraculous. So their loyalty was not spiritual but worldly. This applies as much today as
at any time. God bless you.

Luke 17:5
And the apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#62
The works of God that he has commanded. Like John 6:29. Can you boast about faith?
How can you boast about faith, When God gave you the faith that you have. What power did you conjure up in yourself to understand the gospel. Understand the message of Christ, Make the payment of sin. Convict yourself of sin righteousness and judgment, etc etc.

Its like a two people who went overboard in a heavy sea, and will die a certain deaths unless they are rescued (saved),

when the rescuer comes, He tells them to have faith in him and let him do all the work.

The one person refuses and continues in pride to try to save himself. And ends up perishing,

The other, knowing his fate if he does not trust this savior. Allows the savior to do the work of pulling him out of the water and bringing him to safety,

Can the one rescued BOAST of saving himself. Can he BOAST of his faith? In reality, that person saved will BOAST in his rescuer, and he will go praising that persons name, Just like Paul did when he was rescued from phariseeism on that road to demascus. Did he boast of his faith, or did he boast in his rescuer?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#63
At what point does the blood of Jesus wash our sins away? Is it faith? When do we come into contact with his blood? His blood was shed in his death. Now read Romans 6:3-9. We were baptized into his death. Romans pictures us going down into the water a sinful man and coming up out of the water a new man. Resurrected with Christ. In “newness of life”. The only place in the Bible that we come into contac with his blood is in baptism...baptized into his death. That’s where the blood of Christ is. And that’s where his blood washes our sins away.
Rom 6 is the act of God baptizing us into the death and burial of Christ

It is NOT some human, who is a sinner that needed or needs saved himself. Immersing you in water.

Rom 6 says BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST, BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH etc.

Christ and Death are the substance that we were baptized into. Not water.

Our sins are washed at that point, Just as paul told Titus. The washing of regeneration of who? The holy spirit

Rom 6 is baptism of the spirit. Not baptism of water.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#64
Speaking of faith, I pray that my heavenly Father gives me stronger faith. I’ve been stuggling with anxiety and I know that worrying and anxiety is a sin and it’s also a lack of faith. I feel like it’s a spiritual battle, well we’re all going through battle everyday as Christians but I really need to get rid of this anxiety and I can’t do it alone. I just don’t want Him to be upset with me, I’m really trying to overcome this. I do believe and I do have faith but I need it to be stronger by surrendering completely to Him and laying it all at his feet, knowing that he’s my protection and shield. I pray that he forgives me and I know he understands and knows exactly why I have this anxiety. I pray to Him how I feel always and how much I need Him. Does anyone else in here struggle with anxiety and think it’s attacking their faith?
Satan attacks your faith, Our own flesh will attack our faith.

It is normal. And it is why we need to be involved in a local church where we are surrounded by the body to be used of God to help fight the dark forces who are out to bring us down, and attack our faith.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#65
Well you are half right. But Campbell did not start the church of Christ. Study your history. It really doesn’t matter what church I AM A Member Of , what matters is what the Bible teaches. Let me ask you, what man started your church and when? Do you claim to be a member of the church that is described in the NT. ? Are you organized the way they were? Do you worship the way they worshipped? Do you wear a man made name? We’re you saved the same way the 3000 were on the day of Pentecost? Acts2 or the way the Eunuch was in Acts 8? Did you have your sins “washed away” in baptism like the apostle Paul? If you did then wonderful! We are brothers in Christ. But I wonder if you can say yes to any of those questions. Just claiming to be a member of the Lords church does not make you a member. If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...etc.
Jesus Christ started the Church, which is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18,24) that is made up of all genuine born again Christians and is not simply a church building with a name stamped on it. I see that the so called church of Christ has really done a number on you. You bought into their sales pitch hook, line and sinker! :(

Your church has originated with men, namely THOMAS CAMPBELL, ALEXANDER CAMPBELL, WALTER SCOTT, and BARTON W. STONE. Now did these men actually "restore" the gospel, the church, and true New Testament worship, as they claim, or did they simply create another sect bent on a more dogmatic sectarianism than others they renounced? You can read about it in Campbellism, it's history and heresies.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* (y)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#66
If as the title of this thread suggests is a work then it is a work of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#67
Well I posted a thread about that but I will say again- there are different kinds of works in the NT. When you say “ not by works” what kind of works are you talking about? If you are talking about “boastful works” in Ephesians 2 then I am in complete agreement with that verse. I would never try to justify those. If you are talking about “works of the law (Moses), those are entirely different works from Ephesians 2 and no, I am in complete agreement we cannot be saved by those. But what I believe and you don’t is that there are works of God that are not only good but necessary. Like the one talked about in John 6:29 “ this is the work of God that you believe ...”. Faith is a work,too. Do you want to eliminate that? Now how do you respond to that verse? Do you just rationalize it away? Once you understand and accept that there are good works of God that are essential to salvation as faith is then you solve a lot of problems with Faith/andvworks. A work of God is a work that originated with God- not man. It is commanded by God not man. Most people who vehemently oppose works of any kind will not accept that there are good works of God that must be obeyed but there it is in verse 29. Are you honest enough to accept what that verse is saying?
I've heard this same bogus argument from Campbellites before -- saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). :rolleyes: Here is a statement below from a Campbellite who I once in a discussion with a while back:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

As if Christ's finished work of redemption is insufficient to save us and Jesus needs our works to help Him save us. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me which good works a Christian could do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

You cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law and then teach that we are saved by "these" works, but just not "those" works. By doing so you are perverting the gospel. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul did not say that we are saved through faith and good works, just not works of the law. He said that we are saved by grace through faith, not works. *Elsewhere, Paul said we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5) and he also said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (1 Timothy 1:9) So we are not saved by works in general.

*Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. BTW faith is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. That's why Paul said saved through faith, not works. Note the distinction.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#68
The majority does not prove a thing right. In fact I think I am probably in pretty good company since Jesus said...straight is the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it, but broad is the way to destruction and many there be that go there in. No, it doesn’t bother me, only makes me sad that I am not able to save more.
Faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is the narrow way (Ephesians 2:8,9). Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. How is that for narrow. Works salvation kills and only Jesus saves.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#69
At what point does the blood of Jesus wash our sins away? Is it faith? When do we come into contact with his blood? His blood was shed in his death. Now read Romans 6:3-9. We were baptized into his death. Romans pictures us going down into the water a sinful man and coming up out of the water a new man. Resurrected with Christ. In “newness of life”. The only place in the Bible that we come into contac with his blood is in baptism...baptized into his death. That’s where the blood of Christ is. And that’s where his blood washes our sins away.
Now I understand you needing to accommodate your Campbellism theories, but this is ridiculous! "Through His blood" (Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14) is a reference not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we literally contact it in the waters of baptism, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16).

In regards to Romans 6:3-4, Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. You are confusing the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism).

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25).

Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#70
To say we are not saved by works is to say we are not saved by faith because the Bible says faith is a work. John 6:29.

To say we are not saved by works is misleading. There are at least 3 or 4 different kinds of works talked about in the Bible. Some works we are not saved by are the works of the Old Testament law of Moses. Galatians. To try to be justified by these you will fall from Grace. Another kind of work are the ones men boast about ( boastful works) these are works that come from men. That ORIGINATE with men. These are not works of God. Some that come to mind are “playing ball for Jesus” or selling chicken dinners to raise money for a good cause. Did Jesus tell you to do these things? Then they didn’t come from him. And we know they were boastful works because in the scene in the gospels when Jesus turns these people away they say “...but Lord we have Done many mighty works in your name. But he will say depart from me you who work lawlessness ( without law or authority from God.) there are other works mentioned in the Bible ( works of the flesh-Galatians) but the most important one you need to remember is that there are also works of God. These works are those that come from God not men and they are commanded by God and they are approved by God. Faith is this kind of wrk in John 6:29. In fact, the Holy Spirit says this is the work of God that you believe. So you are misleading people to say we are not saved by works at all. Plus you are contradicting yourself if you turn around and say we are saved by faith. Mark 12:24- “you do err not knowing the scriptures.”
Amen, we are saved by the work of our Faithful Creator . As a work of His faith, the Father and Son demonstrated the labor of love .. (Isaiah 53)

We are saved by faith and not that of our own self. (we had none Zero) But again that of Christ's faith or plan . We are not saved by any labor we could perform .That would render the work of the father and Son as the peace of God that does surpass our understanding useless. .Why would we murmur?. We could end up like the guy in Mathew 7 who did perform wonderful works of God casting out demons with the gospel .He was hoping to establish his own righteousness, not imputed as Philippians 2:12 informs us. Jesus called him a worker of iniquity.

He reminds us he will not forget the good works attributed to his faith (His name)

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings :philippians 2:12-13
 
May 15, 2019
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#71
None of those verses point to the error that is through baptism we are saved. The closest is Acts 22:16 ...
Acts 22:16 NKJV
[16] And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

which is connected with calling on the name of the Lord. If washing away sins by baptism were true, it would contradict scores of verses that point to the fact thai it is the Blood of Jesus, the Lamb of God, that takes away sin...
Revelation 1:5 NKJV
[5] and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

Ephesians 1:7 NKJV
[7] In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

Colossians 1:14 NKJV
[14] in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22 KJV
[22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

So cherry picking verses won't cut it, especially from non doctrinal books like Acts.
At what point does the blood of Jesus wash our sins away? Is it faith? When do we come into contact with his blood? His blood was shed in his death. Now read Romans 6:3-9. We were baptized into his death. Romans pictures us going down into the water a sinful man and coming up out of the water a new man. Resurrected with Christ. In “newness of life”. The only place in the Bible that we come into contac with his blood is in baptism..” we are buried with him bybaptism into his death””
'only' ?

Then Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.
Whosoever eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth My flesh, and drinketh My blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him.
As that living Father hath sent Me, so live I by the Father, and he that eateth Me, even he shall live by Me.
(John 6:53-57)
My comment was in reference to Jesus’s blood washing away sins. The question was ,” when does the blood of Jesus wash away our sins?? Surely you are not suggesting it’s when we eat the Lords supper?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#72
At what point does the blood of Jesus wash our sins away? Is it faith? When do we come into contact with his blood? His blood was shed in his death. Now read Romans 6:3-9. We were baptized into his death. Romans pictures us going down into the water a sinful man and coming up out of the water a new man. Resurrected with Christ. In “newness of life”. The only place in the Bible that we come into contac with his blood is in baptism..” we are buried with him bybaptism into his death””


My comment was in reference to Jesus’s blood washing away sins. The question was ,” when does the blood of Jesus wash away our sins?? Surely you are not suggesting it’s when we eat the Lords supper?
John 6 is not about the lords supper. Which one is told to eat continually. But about the food which endures to eternal life. Which one can eat. And never die.

That is a flaw which is found most likely in romanism.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#73
At what point does the blood of Jesus wash our sins away? Is it faith? When do we come into contact with his blood? His blood was shed in his death. Now read Romans 6:3-9. We were baptized into his death. Romans pictures us going down into the water a sinful man and coming up out of the water a new man. Resurrected with Christ. In “newness of life”. The only place in the Bible that we come into contac with his blood is in baptism..” we are buried with him bybaptism into his death””
I already answered you yesterday in post #53.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#77
God deals faith in measure unto men......Jesus was dealt faith without measure........faith is a GIFT......to say it is a work <-----have a piece of cake!!