Mr. Skinski (and Feedm3 who "likes" your posts): I wish to go point by point, as we have done the last 2 posts and narrow this down.
If you are not willing, so say now please.
Marrianna,
Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Do you understand yet what was happening in this exchange?
Leave it for another time if you think Jesus was instructing the man that keeping the Law would gain him eternal life.
Mark 10:18 does not prove Original Sin. God is the source of all that is good and without him there are none good
Good is a relative term for you ironically.
How good is good enough to enter the Glory of God?
I want to be be razor sharp and focused on your proposition. Please bear with me, and just address what I am asking if you will.
Please ignore the first portion of the following passage, and please only address the last portion:
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3
Now put aside original Sin.
I get that you do not believe all men sin for any reason other than that they choose to.
And do you know, I agree with you 100%?
What you are simply unable to answer, is
why every one, every single one according to GOD (not you and your relative terms of "good") SIN(S) (NNED), did does and will sin.
Now you may bring up any number of words to explain
why.
I do not care what they are.
This says what it says:
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3
Now humanity (all of humanity) has a fatal problem.
SIN.
Do you agree?
Just a single word answer please:
Does all (every one) have a problem, one that is called sin, and that problem has caused all (every one) to fall short of the Glory of God?
yes or no?
If the answer is yes, then we agree.
Sin is a
universal problem in God's creation.
Now let's re-examine your application of "good" to all of mankind who God Himself has declared has sinned (all) and have fallen short of His Glory (acceptance into His Holy Presence based on a
perfect righteousness).
Or, is there something added to your doctrine (along with your relative application of "good") which says that
God has a relative definition of HOLY, as it pertains to entering into and surviving His Presence in Glory?
Put another way, will any sin whatsoever, in any form enter into His eternal Glory and survive?
Just yes or no?
I get that you do not believe God imputes or credits, or declares anyone righteous who is not perfectly righteous, as He requires. I get that. Even though the entire Bible is based around God promising to be both JUST and The Justifier of the ungodly (this is His term, and means everyone who has sinned. We already know He has said everyone has sinned).
So there's no righteous standing for you aside from what you establish by being good enough. Perfectly righteous based on your performance, which is based on the LAW. (unless you have a relative clause for righteousness).
This is what you believe, and it has been made abundantly clear, so that's the ground I'll address you on.
I have only a few more questions. It is better if you simply answer yes or no.
Your doctrine is very clear and the answers should be absolute.
and that is what it appears Jesus is clearly teaching there. Compared to God there are none good thus we all need God.
When you die, will you be as good as God?
Will you be righteous and clean enough, pure and holy to enter into His Glory based on
your performance?
- Remember, you may not call on, ask for, seek or receive imputed righteousness (
actual literal perfectly right standing before Pure Holiness and Light) from God without Him giving it to you from some meritorious source aside from YOU. Your standing before Him is based soley on YOU.
No miraculous cleansing of your unclean self through the intercession of Jesus the High Priest - You can not have this Blood unless the Sacrifice was innocent, and
made on YOUR BEHALF, and, was acceptable to God.
Your doctrine doesn't have THAT Jesus.
Let's assume you give God credit for forgiving your past sins (how He did this I don't know, since according to you Christ did
not die to pay for
your sins).
Now, after coming to 'the knowledge of the truth' (what truth is that Mr. Skinski?), your acceptance into His everlasting Glory is
based on you being good enough. Absolutely without sin.
Is this correct? (Don't waffle or back away from you believe now).
Just a yes or no. That's all I need to understand your teaching.
You must now be absolutely without spot or wrinkle, without a single sin of any kind every moment of every day for the rest of your life.
That involves a completely perfect and unbroken, uninterrupted Love for God FIRST. If you don't have that to your credit, forget all the rest.
This Love for God is according to HIS STANDARD, not your relative standard.
Do we agree He has a perfect and pure standard?
My only real question to you and your teacher and all who "LIKE" your ideas (don't involve Jesus in this, since what He did only applied to you in some mysterious way UNTIL you....until you what exactly?):
WHEN DID YOU SIN LAST?
A sample answer would be:
a) July 17, 1989
b) yesterday
etc.
Please just answer the question plainly. Your entry into the Most Holy's eternal Glory is not based on Christ's Work, but yours.
So when did you qualify?
This is a grave ans serious question and it deserves an answer.
WHEN DID YOU SIN LAST?
Or perhaps Jesus is making an allusion to the fact that He is God. What is sure though is that He IS NOT teaching Original Sin with His statement, nor is Jesus teaching that none can be good. The Bible is full of allusions to good people.
Addressed above.
Not one single person including the reformers and others you and your teacher call evil, EVER said man is not able to do good
IN RELATIVE TERMS. Relative to what STANDARD?
OR that man
should not do good.
OR that redeemed men (how they are redeemed according to you is unclear) WILL NOT NOW DO GOOD -
in Relative Terms. Relative to Whom? You already are FORCED to admit the Bible says ALL have sinned and come short of His Glory.
ALL OF THE ABOVE REFERENCES TO 'GOOD' BEING
RELATIVE TERMS TO
GOD'S GOODNESS - Pure and Absolute Light and Holiness.
Pro_12:2 A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD: but a man of wicked devices will he condemn.
Was Jesus illustrating an impossibility with the following statement?
Mat_12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
And how do you or I know what God has said about good and evil?
Is it from His Word?
What did God say about those who love His Word and live by what it says?
That this man is good. And righteous.
But will any of these men enter His Glory based a relative view of good?
In either of the 2 passages you provided, did The LORD say those good people were sinless?
Who penned a good deal of the Proverbs, sir?
Was it not Solomon who fell into wicked idolatry?
And conversations between Kings and their sons (all of whom, including David sinned)?
On what basis will Solomon enter eternal Glory?
On what ground will any person gain eternal life?
Sinlessness and perfection, correct?
It is not enough to be without sin, we must be completely 100% RIGHTEOUS also.
You also raised Rom 5:12 as a proof text for Original Sin. Let's examine it...
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Death passed upon all men because all HAVE sinned. That verse DOES NOT SAY that "sin passed upon all men" it says DEATH.
[Please don't use Augustine as your whipping post. Defend your docrtine on your own.
If you bring Augustine into it again, I'm closing out of the thread.
Make your position stand on Scripture alone.]
OK?
Now, with Augustine gone, and Original Sin gone, and Substitutionary Atonement gone, and any Judicial declaration of innocence and righteousness applied to you by God from His Own source (Jesus) gone, let's look again at what your disgusting deceit has done:
Death passed upon all men because all HAVE sinned
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
SIN IS MORAL!
SIN IS NOT A DISEASE!
DOES THE BIBLE SAY ALL MEN ARE IMMORAL?
YES OR NO?
"so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:"
I do not care what order you put the egg and the chicken. It means nothing to me.
Are all men condemned, yes or no?
Does it say all have sinned or doesn't it?
So all the "goodness" in the world is relative, and all are immoral, since all have sinned.
And all die. Every single one.
If you are consistent in your warped view of God,
please explain God's injustice in passing a sentence of condemnation and death (and calling ALL sinners) if they are innocent?
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Great!
So Mr. Skinski,
when did you last NOT do something you knew to be good?
An example answer would be:
a) July 17, 1989
b) yesterday
Since you are clear on complete cessation of all sin AND a perfect righteousness summoned up by your perfect obedience to the LAW, the day you stopped sinning, and becamse perfectly righteous should be etched forever in your mind.
Please just give me answer.
If you can not, or will not answer clearly and truthfully, this discussion is over.
You are right though for Judaism did not and still does not teach the doctrine of Original Sin, they taught free will. They taught the concepts of Yetzer Tov (moral conscience) and Yetzer Ra (evil desire/concupisence/temptation). Sin unto death was when the Yetzer Tov was willfully violated in order to satisfy the Yetzer Ra.
The natural passions and desires of the flesh ARE NOT sinful. It is only sinful when they are YIELDED to in order to gratify the flesh in disobedience to God. For example the sexual desire is not evil in itself, only when it is abused either in lusting in the mind, fornication or adultery. The natural desire is simply natural.
Yes, I know.
You and your teachers are worse than the Judaizers of Paul's day, as they at least taught Moses for salvation;
You and your teacher are slipping in as hidden reefs teaching Gnostic Judaism (Kabbalah) for salvation.
That was evident the first post I read of yours, and after surveying your teacher's material.
Marianna,
I have also NEVER CLAIMED that Jesus died to pay a sin debt to Satan. It was Origen in the early church who first proposed that the ransom was paid to Satan and from what I have read this was not a very popular view.
I personally reject it simply because if a ransom was paid to Satan that supposedly set men free from the power of Satan then that would mean that no-one would be in bondage today. It simple doesn't make sense in my mind.
While I don't claim to understand the ransom view completely it is clearly taught in the Bible. My understanding is that the ransom was paid to us in the sense that Jesus Christ gave up something on our behalf, suffered on our behalf, was an example on our behalf, and that He calls us to die with Him.
The ransom was paid TO US? What does that mean? You can dip into the ransom money (merit) for your salvation? That's Catholic doctrine.
Suffered on your behalf?
For what?
To show the world what it takes to be accepted by God, by being just like Jesus?
Doesn't that mean you have be LITERALLY crucified exactly like He was to get to heaven?
What did He give up?
Why bother dying on the Cross? Why not just come and teach and return to Glory in a cloud?
Please answer my questions.
WHY?
was an example on our behalf
You've got a ton of doctrine.
Explain this bit to me.
was an example on our behalf
What was the EXAMPLE of Jesus of Nazareth on the Cross?
What will that example do for mankind?
If God needed to make an example of someone on a Cross, why not Peter? or YOU?
So while Jesus Christ offered Himself to God as a sin offering whereby our previous sins can be washed away He also died as an example for us so that we can die with Him.
And there's your Satanic doctrine right there.
Please tell me when you stopped sinning AND became perfectly righteous according to God's Standard, by examing Jesus Christ as an example of how to be perfect.
Be specific or I'm simply dismissing you as a nut.
