Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
- Thread starter Chris1975
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The other night at Bible fellowship, we were talking about the prophecy in Isaiah coming to pass right before our eyes —-
Isaiah 5:20-23 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Isaiah 5:20-23 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Yeah I was just looking into the prophesized destruction of Damascus, as written in Isaiah 17:1. Seems like that one could come to pass very shortly. We do live in an age where evil is somewhat glorified and glamorized though. I’ve seen Hollywood and television programming deteriorate big time. It seems that evil is almost admired in today’s culture.
The verse correctly reads,
Revelation 13:8. and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (RSV)
Revelation 13:8. and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered. (NRSV)
Revelation 13:8. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, {everyone} whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NASB, 1995)
The Bible tells us that God, upon learning what we shall do, makes His final decision—even if that final decision indicates that He changed His mind regarding an earlier decision. A good example of this is found in the Book of Jonah.
4. Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's walk. And he cried out, "Forty days more, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
5. And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and everyone, great and small, put on sackcloth.
6. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7. Then he had a proclamation made in Nineveh: "By the decree of the king and his nobles: No human being or animal, no herd or flock, shall taste anything. They shall not feed, nor shall they drink water.
8. Human beings and animals shall be covered with sackcloth, and they shall cry mightily to God. All shall turn from their evil ways and from the violence that is in their hands.
9. Who knows? God may relent and change his mind; he may turn from his fierce anger, so that we do not perish."
10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. (NRSV)
At least as early as the 1730’s, Calvinist theologians began searching in the writing of the Early Church Fathers for evidence that some of them believed at least one of the five points of Calvinism. Even now that many thousands of these documents have been digitalized, and searching through them has become much faster and easier, no such evidence has been found. However, Early Church Fathers who taught the conditional security of Christians included Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Lactantius, Athanasius , Hilary of Poitiers, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, and others. Searches through the other Christian literature from before the Reformation have also failed to find evidence of belief in any of the five points of Calvinism.
Absolutely and incontrovertibly false! All of Eph. 1:3-14 is a doxology, and therefore it is neither objective nor unconditionally true. The ‘main clause’ in every sentence in Greek and in English is always an insubordinate clause, and the only insubordinate clause in Eph. 1:3-14 is, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Greek clause translated as “even as He chose us before the foundation of the world” reads, “ καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου,” and is obviously not an insubordinate clause. Moreover, the English clause, “even as He chose us before the foundation of the world” is obviously not an insubordinate clause.
Revelation 13:8. and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (RSV)
Revelation 13:8. and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered. (NRSV)
Revelation 13:8. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, {everyone} whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NASB, 1995)
The Bible tells us that God, upon learning what we shall do, makes His final decision—even if that final decision indicates that He changed His mind regarding an earlier decision. A good example of this is found in the Book of Jonah.
4. Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's walk. And he cried out, "Forty days more, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
5. And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and everyone, great and small, put on sackcloth.
6. When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7. Then he had a proclamation made in Nineveh: "By the decree of the king and his nobles: No human being or animal, no herd or flock, shall taste anything. They shall not feed, nor shall they drink water.
8. Human beings and animals shall be covered with sackcloth, and they shall cry mightily to God. All shall turn from their evil ways and from the violence that is in their hands.
9. Who knows? God may relent and change his mind; he may turn from his fierce anger, so that we do not perish."
10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. (NRSV)
At least as early as the 1730’s, Calvinist theologians began searching in the writing of the Early Church Fathers for evidence that some of them believed at least one of the five points of Calvinism. Even now that many thousands of these documents have been digitalized, and searching through them has become much faster and easier, no such evidence has been found. However, Early Church Fathers who taught the conditional security of Christians included Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Cyprian, Lactantius, Athanasius , Hilary of Poitiers, Ambrose, John Chrysostom, and others. Searches through the other Christian literature from before the Reformation have also failed to find evidence of belief in any of the five points of Calvinism.
Absolutely and incontrovertibly false! All of Eph. 1:3-14 is a doxology, and therefore it is neither objective nor unconditionally true. The ‘main clause’ in every sentence in Greek and in English is always an insubordinate clause, and the only insubordinate clause in Eph. 1:3-14 is, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The Greek clause translated as “even as He chose us before the foundation of the world” reads, “ καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου,” and is obviously not an insubordinate clause. Moreover, the English clause, “even as He chose us before the foundation of the world” is obviously not an insubordinate clause.
Luke 15:1. Now all the tax collectors and sinners were coming near to listen to him.
2. And the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling and saying, "This fellow welcomes sinners and eats with them."
3. So he told them this parable:
4. "Which one of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one that is lost until he finds it?
5. When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders and rejoices.
6. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, "Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.'
7. Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (NRSV)
As Jesus Himself said in v. 7, the point of the parable is that “there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” The parable does not teach or even suggest that every sinner will repent, regardless of their salvation history.
2. And the Pharisees and the scribes were grumbling and saying, "This fellow welcomes sinners and eats with them."
3. So he told them this parable:
4. "Which one of you, having a hundred sheep and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the one that is lost until he finds it?
5. When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders and rejoices.
6. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, "Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.'
7. Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. (NRSV)
As Jesus Himself said in v. 7, the point of the parable is that “there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” The parable does not teach or even suggest that every sinner will repent, regardless of their salvation history.
Christians that fall away from the faith are those that are not spirit-filled. their soul has been cleansed of sin, but have no root to support it which is the holy spirit. baptized with the fire ,which is the holy ghost. a spirit- filled christian will not fall away from the faith. ,because Jesus hear them,and they know his voice.
1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to come into existence in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..
I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced as the Roman Catholic church began to come into existence in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids it's clergy to marry. This same church has other demonic doctrines such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..
Does that fact negate the truths contained in the verses for which Paul give praise to God?
Paul praises God for:
vs 3 - blessing us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies;
vs 4 - choosing us in Christ before the foundation of the world and that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love;
vs 5 - we have been adopted as children by Christ Jesus unto Himself according to His good pleasure;
vs 6 - we have been made accepted in the beloved;
vs 7 - we have redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ, forgiveness of sins (according to the riches of His grace);
vs 8 - wherein (in the riches of His grace) He has abounded (over-filled, furnished richly) toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
vs 9 - He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself;
vs 10 - in fullness of times He will gather together in one all things (both in heaven and on earth) in Christ;
vs 11 - we have obtained an inheritance according to the purpose of Him Who has worked all this our according to the counsel of His own Will;
vs 12 - that we should be to the praise of His glory;
vs 13 - after we heard the truth, the gospel of salvation, after we believed, we were sealed (we received an imprint on our hearts which identifies us as belonging to God) by that holy Spirit of promise (that promise we read about in OT prophesies).
vs 14 - that holy Spirit of promise is the earnest (the down payment) of our inheritance and assures us that at the time of the redemption of the purchase possession, we will receive more of the same inheritance.
All of those spiritual truths are as true today as the day Paul wrote them. And, yes, in agreement with Paul when he wrote Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is to be praised and worshipped. He has given us so much to be thankful for. All of the blessings iterated in vss 3 - 12 are absolutely true. And believers can live in light of those blessings here, in this lifetime on earth. We do not have to wait until new heaven / new earth to enjoy the blessings shown in Ephesians 1:3 - 14.
Paul praises God for:
vs 3 - blessing us with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies;
vs 4 - choosing us in Christ before the foundation of the world and that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love;
vs 5 - we have been adopted as children by Christ Jesus unto Himself according to His good pleasure;
vs 6 - we have been made accepted in the beloved;
vs 7 - we have redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ, forgiveness of sins (according to the riches of His grace);
vs 8 - wherein (in the riches of His grace) He has abounded (over-filled, furnished richly) toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
vs 9 - He has made known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself;
vs 10 - in fullness of times He will gather together in one all things (both in heaven and on earth) in Christ;
vs 11 - we have obtained an inheritance according to the purpose of Him Who has worked all this our according to the counsel of His own Will;
vs 12 - that we should be to the praise of His glory;
vs 13 - after we heard the truth, the gospel of salvation, after we believed, we were sealed (we received an imprint on our hearts which identifies us as belonging to God) by that holy Spirit of promise (that promise we read about in OT prophesies).
vs 14 - that holy Spirit of promise is the earnest (the down payment) of our inheritance and assures us that at the time of the redemption of the purchase possession, we will receive more of the same inheritance.
All of those spiritual truths are as true today as the day Paul wrote them. And, yes, in agreement with Paul when he wrote Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is to be praised and worshipped. He has given us so much to be thankful for. All of the blessings iterated in vss 3 - 12 are absolutely true. And believers can live in light of those blessings here, in this lifetime on earth. We do not have to wait until new heaven / new earth to enjoy the blessings shown in Ephesians 1:3 - 14.
No, Luke 15:4-6 is a parable which Jesus uses to teach that “there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.”
No according to me, and according to the Bible,
John 5:24. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 20:31. “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
believers who, subsequent to their salvation, stop hearing the words of Jesus, or stop continuing to believe Him who sent Jesus, or stop continuing to obey the Son, or stop continuing to believe that Jesus is the Christ, also stop sharing the eternal life that is only in Christ.
(In every verse in the New Testament in which it is taught that salvation is the result of believing, the Greek words translated as ‘believe’ or ‘believing’ are in the Greek present tense or the Greek present participle. Greek verbs in the present tense and Greek present participles, unlike English verbs in the present tense and English present participles, stress the aspect of the action rather than the time of the action. The aspect of the action is that it is continuous rather than limited in time. Therefore, the promise in these verses of eternal life is conditional upon our continuing to hear the words of Jesus, continuing to believe Him who sent Jesus, continuing to obey the son, and continuing to believe that Jesus is the Christ.)
No according to me, and according to the Bible,
John 5:24. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 20:31. “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”
believers who, subsequent to their salvation, stop hearing the words of Jesus, or stop continuing to believe Him who sent Jesus, or stop continuing to obey the Son, or stop continuing to believe that Jesus is the Christ, also stop sharing the eternal life that is only in Christ.
(In every verse in the New Testament in which it is taught that salvation is the result of believing, the Greek words translated as ‘believe’ or ‘believing’ are in the Greek present tense or the Greek present participle. Greek verbs in the present tense and Greek present participles, unlike English verbs in the present tense and English present participles, stress the aspect of the action rather than the time of the action. The aspect of the action is that it is continuous rather than limited in time. Therefore, the promise in these verses of eternal life is conditional upon our continuing to hear the words of Jesus, continuing to believe Him who sent Jesus, continuing to obey the son, and continuing to believe that Jesus is the Christ.)
Hebrews 10 29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
People who are merely claiming to be saved have not been sanctified by the blood of Christ Jesus. Therefore we know for a fact from Scripture itself that a man who has been both saved and sanctified has the potential of,
Trampling under foot the Son of God
Regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified
Insulting the Spirit of grace.
And for doing these sinful things, the reward is NOT salvation; the reward is the VENGEANCE of God.
30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
People who are merely claiming to be saved have not been sanctified by the blood of Christ Jesus. Therefore we know for a fact from Scripture itself that a man who has been both saved and sanctified has the potential of,
Trampling under foot the Son of God
Regarding as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified
Insulting the Spirit of grace.
And for doing these sinful things, the reward is NOT salvation; the reward is the VENGEANCE of God.
30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
There is a difference between one who stumbles in his faith as opposed to one who falls away from his faith. The one who stumbles in his faith still believes but is falling down(I have been there), the Lord will definitely go after that person to bring him back where he belongs. The one who falls away from the faith, has turned his back on God and chose another way. The Lord will not go after him for to do so would be to restore a person by force.
