Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

mailmandan · May 20, 2017

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not.

valiant · May 20, 2017

willybob said:

This is part of Paul's argument to demonstrate that the Law condemns ALL (Rom 1.18 - 3.20). He is pointing out what the Law requires and that both Jew and Gentile is caught. Eternal life is impossible to earn. No one is excepted. He then goes on to demonstrate that being made right with God is by faith alone (3.21-5.21)..

valiant · May 20, 2017

willybob said:

Jesus said it not us. He also said that He would lose nothing of all that God had given Him (John 6.39). Case closed.

No just one of many.

You overlook the fact that Jesus warned the Pharisees, 'you are not of my sheep.' He then defines who are His sheep. Those who hear His voice, who are known to Him, and who follow Him.

Are you suggesting that Christ is not our substitute for sin?

Yes, those who hear Him, are known to Him and who follow Him. They have eternal, never ending life.

Amen. However the highlighted bit is YOUR words, not Jesus'. He said 'follow Him'. Nothing about 'obeying His commandments.

you people do love to introduce extras. This verse is referring to enduring tribulation. And it is talking about physical salvation,

No, but it promises that IF we do He will seek us until He finds us (Luke 15.4).

It is not conditional. It is stated as a FACT. And it is unconditional. It is all about what the shepherd does for His sheep. He recognises that sheep are silly things that will go astray. But His promise is in spite of that. The covenants in the OLD Testament were made with both believers and unbelievers. This one is with believers only.

Yes we are sealed UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION, (Eph 4.30).

there doesn't need to be. He has ALREADY given that (Luke 15.4). This looks at the general behaviour of His sheep.

The crown is a reward, not salvation,

The crown is a reward, not salvation.

Yes they were NEVER HIS. Never perish only covers His sheep (even His straying sheep)

2 Thessalonians 2:3

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It all depends on away falling way means. It means falling away from nominal faith, not from real faith. Jesus had many 'disciples' but He warned them, to ensure that they were real. They too could be false disciples and fall away.

John 16:1

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Not 'lest' but 'so that'. He was confident of them

1 Corinthians 10:12

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I fall regularly. Don't you?

Romans 11:22

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From the nominal church. They had to ensure that they were true believers.

How can people be blind to these plain and simple warnings in the text?

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We are not. We heed them carefully knowing that He will keep us to the end.

That you may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life. Its mine NOW. And its eternal.

Which conditions? Having Christ we HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

valiant · May 20, 2017

willybob said:

How can people be blind to these plain and simple warnings in the text?

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Or possibly we can say, How can people misinterpret them so badly? They were written to a mixture of people, some of whom were true believers and some outward professors, and they wanted to enforce the truth of the Gospel against people who were teaching all kinds of queer ideas and make sure that their own supporters were genuine..

He wants them to KNOW that they have ETERNAL life. And they can know it by 'having the Son' (verse 11). The verbs are in the present because he is talking to them in their present condition, not because there is any doubt about it. It is quite simple really, until someone plays around with it and denies its obvious truth.

But there is NOTHING about turning away. It is sure and certain. Such a person HAS eternal life, which includes everlasting life. Who says 'some have'. That is presumption. Some have merely 'gone astray'. And He will not let them go. He will seek them UNTIL He finds them (Lke 15.4).

Wow that's not my experience. Say rather that man's will never prevails over God's

Ahh now you're talking, Stan's will shall NOT prevail. Man was created as a free moral being. But he fell, and he is no longer a free moral being. He is helpless. And he needs a Savior. He can cause shipwreck to his faith (not his salvation). But his Savior is at hand.

So it is not eternal life after all? Just a present life which is contingent? My Bible says ETERNAL.

This says that if I believe in the Son I HAVE eternal life.

True. When I wander I have doubts. But fortunately He has no doubts.

The assurance of salvation taught in the Bible is permanent because salvation from the penalty of sin is once for all (aorist tense). See 1 Tim 1.9; Tit 3.4-7. But we can only have that assurance when we are following Jesus.

They are not automatically saved, they are saved by GOD. (Unless God is an automaton). He is very good at saving. And He cannot break His promise.

As to 'future sins are already forgiven' it depends on what you mean by forgiven. If you mean they will not affect your justification, you are correct. You are justified once and for all. If you mean that God will not overlook sin you are correct. He will chasten us as His children.

we lost free will at the Fall. Our wills are now based on our presuppositions, prejudices, environment, etc. That is the reality. God overrules our petty freedoms as a father does his child.

1 Timothy 4-1

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It depends on who they are seducing. They say many things. And nominal Christians are seduced by them for they have no Holy Spirit within. They depart from 'the faith'. They cease to adhere to what is taught. They return to their own vomit again. They demonstrate that they are not real Christians.

Would God that that was all they taught. People would easily see though them. But they are far cleverer than that. Fortunately the Christian knows that he will not die. He knows that his Father will chastise him to keep him.

Thus men can hold 'the faith' and never have been saved. They held a bunch of doctrines, but they did not know the Saviour. He says of them 'I NEVER knew you.'

If God allows us to finally fall away from 'the faith' (the body of doctrines) it probably shows that we were never saved. But if we were He will seek us until He finds us'

It is taking about 'the faith'. It is not talking about faith.

AT LAST WE AGREE ON SOMETHING, but it has nothing to do with the verse

They have put it away but they have not lost their salvation. They have been 'delivered to Satan' (excluded from the church)so that they might learn a lesson. Then they will return,

reneweddaybyday · May 20, 2017

willybob said:

Luke 15:

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

How do you reconcile your rendering of John 10:27-28 with Luke 15:4-7?

Sagart · May 20, 2017

valiant said:

I have never read a more false paragraph—nor a paragraph that is more insulting to the holiness and righteousness of God! God created man with a free will in the hope and expectation that man would love Him and obey Him, but man decided to love himself rather than God, and to disobey obey God for his own pleasure. When God saw what sinful monsters man chose to become, He “was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.” (Gen. 6:5-6).

valiant said:

Yes, it is! And for 1,500 years we find not so much as a hint that anyone misunderstood Him in this verse. But when the French politician named John Calvin came on the scene, a small minority were deceived. Most fortunately, the very large majority of Christians today, and especially those Christians who read the New Testament in Greek, understand that Jesus meant exactly what he said,

John 6:39. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”

However, as seen above, there are some people who believe that God’s will always comes to pass, and that every atrocity ever committed by man was the will of God. Could anything, anything at all, be less true? Of course not!

valiant said:

In every Greek sentence in the New Testament, all of the subordinate clauses are subordinate to the insubordinate clauses. There is only one insubordinate clause in Eph. 1:3-14, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

valiant said:

A doxology is a written or oral expression of praise to God. The whole of Eph. 1:3-14 is a written expression of praise to God. It is not an objective, unconditional theological statement or summary.

Moreover, I have never, absolutely never, presented on a Christian forum any belief or interpretation of the Scriptures that is not in harmony with interpretations of the Scriptures that are found in written form throughout the entire history of the Church, and that are not today taught by Christian scholars who are internationally known for their outstanding scholarship and their contribution to our understanding of the Bible in the light of the very finest Christian scholarship.

willybob · May 20, 2017

valiant said:

Please spare me the rhetoric, and excuses..They become tiresome to the soul..

willybob · May 20, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

as in the song of Hannah and Mary, God rejects the proud and shows mercy to the humble..

Very simple;unto those that humble themselves and forsake their evil ways God shows mercy too...ie the periodical son which is expressed after the first two parables in Luke 15..

willybob · May 20, 2017

mailmandan said:

the first works is that of repentance and coming clean with God in a season of godly sorrow...It seems to be a strenuous workout according to the apostle Paul in 2 Cor. 7-10,11...Paul himself was blind and without food or water for three days going through this affair while coming clean with God..without doing this first work he would not have been fit for the Masters' use..

valiant · May 20, 2017

Sagart said:

So your God feels in the dark and does not know the end from the beginning? No thank you. I prefer God as He is, in control of all things, even though I do not understand His ways.

Are you suggesting that He did not know the man would sin? That He was taken by surprise? That His next movement was ad hoc? Away with such a thought. Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Why? So that man's sin might be prepared for even before it happened.

No doubt He was. He grieved at what man had become. But nevertheless He was not surprised.

Well I read the New Testament in Greek, but it doesn't affect my view of this verse. You have little real knowledge of history or you would recognise that Calvin only put in writing what many had thought through the centuries. Many had stated what he formalised, And it would be interesting to know how many today think as he did. Probably the majority.

Calvin or not. This has only one meaning. 'I lose NOTHING'.

Actually it is true. It was by God's permissive will, although not necessarily His preference.

But that only proves that all that was written in the subordinate clauses was a subject of blessing. It is not to make it a doxology in the normal sense of the term. And it was all good theology.

wow and I wondered what it was LOL

Rubbish. It was an expression of praise to God leading on to the profoundest of theological statements The first clause was merely leading on to the statement and was only an introduction. The main clause is, 'even as He chose us before the foundation of the world'.

Neither have I lol. And I am aware of the latest scholarship.

Sagart · May 20, 2017

valiant said:

John 5:24. “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 20:31. “but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

In every verse in the New Testament in which it is taught that salvation is the result of believing, the Greek words translated as ‘believe’ or ‘believing’ are in the Greek present tense or the Greek present participle. Greek verbs in the present tense and Greek present participles, unlike English verbs in the present tense and English present participles, stress the aspect of the action rather than the time of the action. The aspect of the action is that it is continuous rather than limited in time. Therefore, the promise in these verses of eternal life is conditional upon our continuing to hear the words of Jesus, continuing to believe Him who sent Jesus, continuing to obey the son, and continuing to believe that Jesus is the Christ.

Those persons who are currently in Christ currently have eternal life (ζωὴν αἰώνιον); Those persons who are not currently in Christ do not currently have eternal life—regardless of whether they were at some point in their life in Christ. The phrase, ‘ζωὴν αἰώνιον’ consists of the noun ‘ζωὴν’ and the adjective ‘αἰώνιον.’ The adjective ‘αἰώνιον’ modifies the noun ‘ζωὴν,’ and neither says nor implies anything about our relationship to that life. However, if Christians, subsequent to their salvation, stop hearing the words of Jesus, or stop continuing to believe Him who sent Jesus, or stop continuing to obey the son, or stop continuing to believe that Jesus is the Christ, they stop sharing the eternal life that is only in Christ.

valiant · May 20, 2017

willybob said:

Yes people like you get tired of Scripture.

valiant · May 20, 2017

Sagart said:

So he is eternally secure.

Because it is talking about the moment of belief,

my, my, how learned. And I thought that often they mean present action. Foolish me

Well?

and therefore always will have,

And that is all contained in a present tense?. Isn't Greek wonderful. I didn't realise that it guaranteed what they once were

But those who are currently not in Christ have NEVER been in Christ. Full stop. Christ has not lost a member.

Amazing. Such knowledge! But I have studied Greek for many years professionally.

But the verb says everything, We HAVE eternal life.

So they haven't personally got eternal life? That isn't what I read.

notbythesword · May 20, 2017

Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons…1 Timothy 4:1

valiant · May 20, 2017

notbythesword said:

Many are doing so now because they are not true Christians. They depart from 'the faith' because they have no real faith.

notbythesword · May 20, 2017

valiant said:

I think that while there is much confusion and various doctrinal teachings, it's probably been going on for centuries. I think that the great falling away that it speaks about in the end times will be quite significant. Probably beyond anything we've been seeing so far. If enough fell away from the faith, it would allow an easier atmosphere for the antichrist regime to take foot.

willybob · May 20, 2017

Valiant,,
Are you suggesting that Christ is not our substitute for sin?

No, Im not suggesting it, but rather sating that it is a BIBLICAL FACT that He is not our substitute. That erroneous idea came from the mind of Luther 500 years ago..Jesus died voluntarily on the behalf of all mankind, not in their place. In doing so He justified the mercy that the Father always desired to dispense upon the repented....Therefore Jesus became the mercy seat of God for (our propitiation) for the purpose of purchasing our souls at Calvary from the condemnation of sin...Christ is our Savior and example, not our substitute...Its called New Covenant Theology, and not Penal Substitution..

reneweddaybyday · May 20, 2017

willybob said:

In agreement that in the parable of the forgiving father, the prodigal son returned to his father and was very humble.

However, in the first two parables in Luke 15, it is clear that the owner diligently searches for that which was lost.

In your post #179, you insist that those who receive eternal life are those who:

willybob said:

In Luke 15:4-7, the shepherd leaves the 99 and he searches for the one until he finds it. Not only does he search until he finds, but he places the one on his shoulders and carries it back to the fold.

How do you reconcile the Lord Jesus Christ searching for the lost with only those who "follow Him wheresoever HE goeth" shall be saved?

reneweddaybyday · May 20, 2017

Sagart said:

Paul praising and thanking Father for the seal of the holy Spirit (vs 13) does not nullify the the seal. The believer is sealed at the time he/she is born again. At that point (bold mine),

Furthermore, in Eph 1:14 we find that the seal by that holy Spirit of promise is the "earnest arrabōn of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession".

Sagart, have you ever studied the arrabōn? What do your "Christian scholars who are internationally known for their outstanding scholarship and their contribution to our understanding of the Bible" say about the arrabōn?

The word appears 3 times in Scripture:

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the arrabōn of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the arrabōn of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:4 Which is the arrabōn of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

willybob · May 20, 2017

There was no once saved always saved in the OT, why should there be in the NT. The OT saints were included in the Lambs blood that was shed from the foundation of the world....after all, God is no respecter of persons, yes?...Several kings are mentioned that followed God and fell from His grace into ruination..king Saul of whom was given a new heart by God and said that the kingship would have remained in his house forever if he would have continued to obey and of course king Solomon. King Jehoash followed God faithfully but went bad after the priest Jehodia died, 2 Kings 11,12, 2 Chronicles 24-25..King Uzziah, followed God faithfully until the prophet Zechariah died and then he became prideful and was stricken with leapracy until he died, thus was CUT OFF FROM THE HOUSE OF THE LORD, 2 Chron. 26..

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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