Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

reneweddaybyday · May 24, 2017

FranC said:

Please re-read what I wrote. I said you "love" God. And I do believe you love God and I also believe it does make a difference whether one knows (gnontes) God or knows (ginōskō) God (whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.

FranC said:

I study Scripture. You disagree with what I have stated. That does not give you leave to assert (as you did in your Post #374) that I "twist scripture around to make it fit what [ I ] falsely believe".

In fact, one could point out that your unwillingness to even look at the difference between gnontes and ginōskō is due to your desire to "twist scripture around to make it fit what [ you ] falsely believe".

I believe what I believe (that the salvation of the born again one rests entirely on God and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and Their ability and desire to keep me safe for eternity).

You believe what you believe (that the salvation of the born again one rests on him/her not walking away by rejecting God).

Without satisfying ourselves with accusations which have no basis other than to satisfy our flesh, we can leave it at that and wait for that Day when we all stand to give an account.

FranC said:

In agreement.

FranC said:

And how did I change the meaning of the verse by clarifying the difference between gnontes and ginōskō?

Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

It is clear from the context within which Rom 1:21 sits that the knowledge of God spoken of is that which is revealed in creation as opposed to an intimate knowledge of God.

Just as you might "know" a famous actor or a singer, those who gnontes God, glorify Him not as God because they don't ginōskō Him. They become vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart becomes darkened.

And I agree that one can see the difference through a reading of the verse in context without knowing Greek. However, you and Rockrz ignore not only the context but when someone shows you the difference from the Greek, you continue to ignore. And not because I do not have "initials after [my] name" but because you choose to ignore.

reneweddaybyday · May 24, 2017

Rockrz said:

You mean these "liberal" manuscripts”

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know (ginōskōsin = γινώσκωσιν) thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ,
whom thou hast sent.

Nestle GNT 1904
αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωὴ, ἵνα γινώσκωσιν

Greek Orthodox Church 1904
αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή, ἵνα γινώσκωσιν

Tischendorf 8th Edition
αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή, ἵνα γινώσκωσιν

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή ἵνα γινώσκωσιν

Rockrz said:

Yes, God's desire is that ALL would be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

And in agreement that there are some sitting in our churches who are tares. They think they know God but in reality they only know of Him. Sad, really. But not surprising because Jesus told us that would be so in Matt 13. And He also said to let both (tares and wheat) grow together and all would be settled at the time of the harvest.

God knows those who are His (the wheat). And He will gather the wheat into His everlasting kingdom. And then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (Matt 13:43). Very cool!

Rockrz said:

In agreement. At that time, we all shall know even as also we are known

I trust in Father God and the Lord Jesus Christ to keep me, you, and FranC safely within the fold.

Rockrz · May 24, 2017

And in agreement that there are some sitting in our churches who are tares. They think they know God but in reality they only know of Him. Sad, really. But not surprising because Jesus told us that would be so in Matt 13. And He also said to let both (tares and wheat) grow together and all would be settled at the time of the harvest.

Good point...

PeterJens · May 24, 2017

We have to be honest about who we are facing.

Idolatry, where to believe you are secure makes you saved and to not believe in this security
means you do not know Jesus or salvation. This puts this belief above repentance, faith,
baptism in the Holy Spirit and every other christian experience or belief.

Now people with an idolatrous belief system have already left the faith and invented their
own mythology and escatology. It does not matter to them scripture contradicts what they
believe or the church, because they will find any excuse to shore up their faith because it
is not Jesus or His word that is Lord of their lives.

One testimony about listening to these preachers was it sounded heretical to their ears,
until they realised they had been wrong and needed to believe this idolatry. Not surprisingly
once they apostated, took on what they call new lenses of scripture, de-brain washed themselves,
it all made sense.

Funnily I have never had someone describe the spiritual effects of apostacy and idolatry before but
it exactly mirrored what they talked about. No more striving or trying to prove anything, though they
continually feel convicted of sin, it is down to satan getting at them, and they are now on the true
path. Bit of a bad road if actually they have apostated, are in idolatry, and it is God trying to convict
them of the sin they are still dwelling in. But God allows delusions to take people, because in love
it is part of the road, you choose which way you walk and what you sow.

FranC · May 24, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

Please re-read what I wrote. I said you "love" God. And I do believe you love God and I also believe it does make a difference whether one knows (gnontes) God or knows (ginōskō) God (whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.

Hi,
I know the difference between the two "knows". Here's why I think it's not important:
A person who loves God, is in communion with Him to the point that they desire to read His word, KNOWS God. Not as even satan knows God, but as WE know God. Doesn't matter how it's said in Greek. You see what I mean?
It's not that I don't care. It's that it's NOT NECESSARY. The bible is for everyone: Those who have never studied and can hardly read, and those who are super intelligent (like yourself ) and desire to know more and more.

What I'm saying is that no one her on this thread is a scholar of Greek.

We should be discussing biblical concepts and God, not Greek.

I study Scripture. You disagree with what I have stated. That does not give you leave to assert (as you did in your Post #374) that I "twist scripture around to make it fit what [ I ] falsely believe".

In fact, one could point out that your unwillingness to even look at the difference between gnontes and ginōskō is due to your desire to "twist scripture around to make it fit what [ you ] falsely believe".

I didn't mean to say that YOU twist scripture. I don't know you. I said that this tactic is USED to twist scripture around. And I've seen some good twisting. If I hear the term "aorist tense" one more time, I think I'll just scream. No one here even knows what it really means! We just THINK we do. It's like trying to play doctor when one has not studied. This is an opinion of mine.
I don't expect you to agree with it. We're here to Exchange ideas, no?

I find that persons here are really defensive. I think this is because there are persons here that are not very nice and so we begin to mistrust everyone and don't really listen to what they're saying.

I believe what I believe (that the salvation of the born again one rests entirely on God and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and Their ability and desire to keep me safe for eternity).

You believe what you believe (that the salvation of the born again one rests on him/her not walking away by rejecting God).

Without satisfying ourselves with accusations which have no basis other than to satisfy our flesh, we can leave it at that and wait for that Day when we all stand to give an account.

Agreed. Except that eternal security is NOT biblical. NONE of the early Church theologians believed in eternal security.
jIf it IS true, it means that everyone who came before Calvin was an idiot and did not understand the written word.

I've many times posted 2 Peter 2:20-22, but I get such weird responses to it, that I hesitate to post it.

How would YOU explain it?

Also, what is it that makes us saved?
FAITH.

So,

FAITH............SALVATION
NO FAITH.......NO SALVATION

If I lose my faith, and it's faith that saves, how could I still be saved if I lose my faith?
I'm still in the same boat as those that have faith?

How do you explain 2 Timothy 2:11-13

How do you explain the discrepancy between verse 12 and verse 13?
In verse 12 we read that if we DENY HIM, He will deny us.

In verse 13 we read that if WE ARE FAITHLESS, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

This is a contradiction? What does it mean that God remains faithful to Himself?
I've read many times that it mean that if WE do not remain faithful to Him,
He still remains faithful to US.

Then what does verse 12 mean??

God is not the creator of confusion, so verse 13 must mean something else.
What?

Meggido · May 24, 2017

FranC said:

reneweddaybyday said:

Please re-read what I wrote. I said you "love" God. And I do believe you love God and I also believe it does make a difference whether one knows (gnontes) God or knows (ginōskō) God (whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.

Hi,
I know the difference between the two "knows". Here's why I think it's not important:
A person who loves God, is in communion with Him to the point that they desire to read His word, KNOWS God. Not as even satan knows God, but as WE know God. Doesn't matter how it's said in Greek. You see what I mean?
It's not that I don't care. It's that it's NOT NECESSARY. The bible is for everyone: Those who have never studied and can hardly read, and those who are super intelligent (like yourself ) and desire to know more and more.

What I'm saying is that no one her on this thread is a scholar of Greek.

We should be discussing biblical concepts and God, not Greek.

I study Scripture. You disagree with what I have stated. That does not give you leave to assert (as you did in your Post #374) that I "twist scripture around to make it fit what [ I ] falsely believe".

In fact, one could point out that your unwillingness to even look at the difference between gnontes and ginōskō is due to your desire to "twist scripture around to make it fit what [ you ] falsely believe".

I didn't mean to say that YOU twist scripture. I don't know you. I said that this tactic is USED to twist scripture around. And I've seen some good twisting. If I hear the term "aorist tense" one more time, I think I'll just scream. No one here even knows what it really means! We just THINK we do. It's like trying to play doctor when one has not studied. This is an opinion of mine.
I don't expect you to agree with it. We're here to Exchange ideas, no?

I find that persons here are really defensive. I think this is because there are persons here that are not very nice and so we begin to mistrust everyone and don't really listen to what they're saying.

I believe what I believe (that the salvation of the born again one rests entirely on God and my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and Their ability and desire to keep me safe for eternity).

You believe what you believe (that the salvation of the born again one rests on him/her not walking away by rejecting God).

Without satisfying ourselves with accusations which have no basis other than to satisfy our flesh, we can leave it at that and wait for that Day when we all stand to give an account.

Agreed. Except that eternal security is NOT biblical. NONE of the early Church theologians believed in eternal security.
jIf it IS true, it means that everyone who came before Calvin was an idiot and did not understand the written word.

I've many times posted 2 Peter 2:20-22, but I get such weird responses to it, that I hesitate to post it.

How would YOU explain it?

Also, what is it that makes us saved?
FAITH.

So,

FAITH............SALVATION
NO FAITH.......NO SALVATION

If I lose my faith, and it's faith that saves, how could I still be saved if I lose my faith?
I'm still in the same boat as those that have faith?

How do you explain 2 Timothy 2:11-13

How do you explain the discrepancy between verse 12 and verse 13?
In verse 12 we read that if we DENY HIM, He will deny us.

In verse 13 we read that if WE ARE FAITHLESS, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

This is a contradiction? What does it mean that God remains faithful to Himself?
I've read many times that it mean that if WE do not remain faithful to Him,
He still remains faithful to US.

Then what does verse 12 mean??

God is not the creator of confusion, so verse 13 must mean something else.
What?

The word know means to become one with...many will not ever, ever become one with Christ.

reneweddaybyday · May 24, 2017

FranC said:

Someone brought the word ginosko up, indicating ginosko was the word used in Rom 1:21. I replied to that post and elaborated to show the difference between gnontes (which is the word used in the verse) and ginōskō.

So whether it is NECESSARY or NOT NECESSARY, if someone is going to bring up the Greek and use it to improperly have Rom 1:21 say something that is not intended by God, then I am going to speak up and provide information if/when I decide to do so.

What someone does with the information concerning Rom 1:21 is between him/her and God. God tells us to plant / water only. We do not have to make others believe. That is God's responsibility. God brings the increase into the heart of the hearer.

FranC said:

Apologies if I read more into your statement than you intended.

And, yes, I agree we are here to exchange information concerning Scripture, not Greek. Having said that, there is some benefit to finding out about the Greek / Hebrew language as Scripture was written in those languages and there are certain word structures and/or nuances within the original language that may be lost in the English.

A person does not have to study Greek or Hebrew in order to understand Scripture. And a person who studies Greek or Hebrew may or may not know more concerning Scripture than someone who does not study Greek or Hebrew. I am not going to tell someone who has a desire to study the Greek or Hebrew meaning that they should not or cannot study that language.

FranC said:

2 Peter 2:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

First of all, we have to understand who are the "they" that have escaped. The whole of 2 Peter 2 speaks of:

Vs 2 – false prophets, false teachers,

Vs 3 – those who follow their pernicious ways,

Vs 4 – the angels that sinned,

Vs 6 – the condemnation of Sodom and Gomorrha,

Vs 9 – the unjust who are to be punished,

Vs 10 – them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness,

Vs 12 – those who speak evil of things they do not understand,

Vs 13 – those who are spots and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you, the true believer,

Vs 14 – those whose eyes are full of adultery, that cannot cease from sin, that exercise covetous practices, those who are cursed children,

Vs 15 – they have forsaken he right way and have gone astray,

Vs 18 – those who speak great swelling words of vanity,

Vs 19 – they promise liberty but they are servants of corruption,

That is the "they" 2 Peter 2:20 is speaking of. I believe there are some who hold positions within the church who are described in these verses. They have gone through seminary and have been taught a knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ but they remain as described in 2 Peter 2. (Note: Read 2 Peter 1 for a description of the true believer).

Vs 21 – It would have been better for them not to have studied the way of righteousness (without believing the way of righteousness) than to reject the holy commandment delivered to them. And remember that the holy commandment is delivered to all of mankind, not just believers. God's will is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the trust. Sadly, some will not be saved or come to the knowledge of the truth.

Vs 23 – the "they" referred to in 2 Peter 2:20 prefer to reject the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and remain in their own vomit and wallow in the mire.

I have heard and read about some who go through seminary and who are appointed to leadership positions within the church and they do not believe in the resurrection of Christ from the dead. That, in my mind, is preposterous.

In this article, a poll of nearly 2,000 of the Church's 10,000 clergy found that only half believe that faith in Christ is the only route to salvation:

One third of clergy do not believe in the Resurrection - Telegraph

In this article the percent of Americans who believe in the resurrection has dropped from 77% to 64%:

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/dan-joseph/

Sad, because according to Rom 10:9,10 we are to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead. If clergy does not believe in the resurrection, how are they ever going to teach the resurrection with any alacrity or credibility?

Sagart · May 25, 2017

valiant said:

This is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. In the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers that have come down to us, they quoted or explicitly alluded to verses from every one of the 27 books of the New Testament for a total of approximately 119,000 quotes and explicit allusions. Long before the invention of the printing press in about 1440 and the Protestant Reformation that began in 1517, biblical and theological scholars were studying the books of the New Testament in much greater depth than did John Calvin. The most well known of these is, of course, Augustine of Hippo (November 13, 354 – August 28, 430). And what student of theology has not read Summa Theologiæ by Thomas Aquinas (1225 – 7 March 7, 1274), the critical edition of which was published from 1886-1906 in nine volumes; or perhaps his Summa Contra Gentiles, the critical edition of which was published from 1918-1930 in three volumes.

valiant said:

This is a another gross misrepresentation of the facts.

John 6:39. “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”

As we saw earlier in this thread, God’s will is often thwarted by sinful men!

John 10:27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”

As we saw earlier in this thread, Jesus is here quoting from Isaiah 43 in which God’s elect were in His hand, but because of their subsequent rebellion, God delivered them to “utter destruction!”

In the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers that have come down to us, they quoted or explicitly alluded to verses from the sixth chapter of the Gospel According to John 84 times!; and quoted or explicitly alluded to verses from the tenth chapter of the Gospel According to John 79 times! They had copies of all 27 of the books that make up our New Testament today—and they very carefully studied them and wrote about them in great detail.

Between 325 and 1517, the New Testament was available to be studied in the original Greek, and in Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Ethiopic.

Chris1975 · May 25, 2017

James 5
[SUP]
19 [/SUP]Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, [SUP]20 [/SUP]let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul[SUP][f][/SUP] from death and cover a multitude of sins.

- Brethren (the church)
- can wander from the truth. By implication they were at one stage in the truth.
- there is a need to turn him back.
- and this turning him back will result in SALVATION.
-the corollary is this: If he doesn't turn back, there is condemnation. And the sins remain.

Chris1975 · May 25, 2017

James 5

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned.[SUP][c][/SUP] Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

- I don't think people have a cooking-clue as to God's Holy standard.
- brethren
- grumbling
- risk of condemnation

OSAS is like a drug. You have injected this into your veins. It has dulled you you God's holy standard. You have been placated by the Devil. You have a false assurance. This is not the Gospel that saves. You have imperiled yourself on man's doctrines.

Chris1975 · May 25, 2017

James 4

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Adulterers and[SUP][b][/SUP] adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

- God call those in the church who live according the flesh adulterers.
- We are to be married to God: Romans 7v4 [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
- God makes it very clear. You either hold onto the world, or you hold onto Him. You cannot have both.
- If you choose the world (or even think that you can accommodate both), then God makes it clear that you are an enemy of God. You are committing adultery against Him.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?

- He will not share us with the world. He is a jealous God. He bought you at the highest price. The death of His Son on a cross. How then can you not, in return, give Him everything. [SUP]

6 [/SUP]But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore submit to God.

- Are you able to accept this? Can you humble yourself enough to agree to the fact that He gave all to you? That your holy response is to give all back to Him?

Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

- Resist (an action / a work) the devil. For if you do he will flee from you. It takes your par-tic-i-pa-tion.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

- This is written to the church. Let there be no doubt of the context.
-Church: CLEANSE YOUR HANDS, YOU SINNERS, PURIFY YOUR HEARTS
- You Double Minded: Double mindedness comes from trying to serve two masters. Not being sure of what camp you are in. You are either with Christ fully, or you are not with him. There is no "partially" with Christ.
- If you are double minded, then your WORK/ACTION is to make your CHOICE.

If it were not place to warn the church, there would be no warnings. But there is. Why do you think that is?

FranC · May 25, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

Those who know Koinè Greek DO get more out of the bible. But no one here does.
Here, look at this:

Romans 1:21
"for even thought they knew God, they did not Honor Him as God, or give thanks..."

In verse 20 it says that from the beginning of the world God's invisible attributes were clearly seen, also His eternal power and divine nature.

God was UNDERSTOOD by what had been made, so that THEY WERE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

So when you go to verse 21, it's obvious that Know mean Know in the heart and soul --- no matter what the greeek word may be. It will agree with how we understand it. Why else would God need to be HONORED and THANKED, if the "know" did not mean in our heart? It even says their foolish heart became darkened.

See? It's obvious anyway. No need or the Greek. it just adds an extra layer to have to get through.
But, yes, whatever one desires to do in God's name is good.

NOW, 2 Peter 2:20-22

What difference does it make WHO these verses are speaking aboutj?
A person who knows very little could decide to abandon God.
A person who knows a lot could decide to abandon God.
A teacher could decide to abandon God.
A false teacher could decide to abandon God, even though they might have known Him at some point in their life.

SO...

verse 20

If they have escaped the defilement of the world, they are AGAIN...

This means they were defiled,
Escaped the defilement,
And are now AGAIN defiled.

They are ONCE AGAN entangled in the defilement of the world and are overcome by the world. THIS state is worse than the last.

They were lost. In the defilement of the world.
They were saved: Having escaped the defilement.
They are lost again. Having AGAIN become entangled in the defilemen of the world.

verse21

I would have been better for them not to have known the WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
There is only one way of righteousness. God's way.
Than having KNOWN it (I guess you could look up the word known, I'm sure it'll agree with me) turning away from the Holy Commandment delivered to them.

The Holy Commandment is the way of the cross, it's the gospel message.

If you notice, I used the actual wording in the verses.

You, OTOH, changed the wording.

For verse 21, you say.
Vs 21 – It would have been better for them not to have studied the way of righteousness (without believing the way of righteousness) than to reject the holy Commandment

Where in the passage is the idea of studying? They were believers. They had the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and Savior.
No one can call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. They definitely had the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3
"No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit"
NASB

You mention the resurrection and how some do not believe it. I don't understand what this has to do with anything.

These verses are clearly speaking about persons (whoever they might be)
that were lost, saved and lost again.

I DO NOT see the words "studied" the way of righteousness "without believieng."
THESE ARE WORDS YOU HAVE ADDED.

Grace777x70 · May 25, 2017

Paul uses the term "in Christ" in some form or other 174x times in his epistles when referring to Christians. We are talking about Christians here - not unbelievers.

The Holy Spirit is with us forever Jesus said.

John 14:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP] that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The Spirit of truth is with us forever!

2 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

John says we are safe in the Lord as He keeps us. Isn't that exciting to know that?

As for 2 Peter 2 ...here is the answer to that...that has been talked about in light of the New Covenant many times.

The whole chapter 2 in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets in verse 1...then in verse 9 Peter talks about the unrighteous ( the unbeliever ).

then in verse 13..they are stains and blemishes ( believers have no spot or blemish because of Jesus..1 Peter 1:19 Eph 5:27 Eph 1:4 )..all through that chapter he is not describing a believer in Christ.

Even "IF" it is talking about a believer it still does not say they go to hell. That's what those that are unbelievers in eternal security of the life in Christ "add on" to their own interpretation of those verses in 2 Peter 2.

Here is a post #49 from mailmandan that dissects 2 Peter 2:20 down for us.

Twice dead

Grace777x70 · May 25, 2017

For what it is worth - here is what some Greek scholars say about the work "known" in 2 Peter 2:21

[FONT="Gentium" !important]Epiginōskō[/FONT] is a compound from [FONT="Gentium" !important]epi[/FONT] (1894) [FONT="Gentium" !important]ginōskō[/FONT] (1091), “I know.” For the most part it overlaps significantly with [FONT="Gentium" !important]ginōskō[/FONT], but in a finer sense it can mean “to observe” (visually), “to look up,” hence “to recognize.”

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.

Chris1975 · May 25, 2017

[video=youtube;QIHQJUQAckg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIHQJUQAckg[/video]

reneweddaybyday · May 25, 2017

FranC said:

No, the word "Know" in verse 21 does not mean "Know in the heart and soul". The word "Know" in verse 21 means to perceive or realize. Can one look at the universe as shown in verse 20 (the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made) and come to the conclusion that there is a Creator? Yes.

But to "Know in the heart and soul" is a deeper knowing than just to perceive, observe and conclude.

The difference between "Know" and "Know in the heart and soul" is shown by the context as well as the Greek word gnontes used in verse 21. That word does not mean to "Know in the heart and soul".

The word gnontes can be explained as your knowledge of a famous person through media as opposed to your knowledge of your mother or father or siblings or spouse ... someone you have lived with and know more intimately.

Using your sig as an example: I "know" Paul Hewson (Bono). However, I do not "know" him like I "knew" my husband (who I lived with for 40 years before he passed away), or like I "know" my sisters, who I grew up with and with whom I still have a relationship.

That is the difference between gnontes and ginōskō.

And to "know" (gnontes) God and not glorify Him as God is enough to cause the unbeliever to be without excuse.

FranC said:

I agree that a person can read the context and, without studying the Greek, can understand that the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 means to perceive.

We also need to use discernment when reading the text. Even in the English language the word "know" covers the range of to have an awareness to being acquainted to having a relationship through spending time with someone.

So to "know" God through observing creation brings us an awareness of Him, which should lead to becoming acquainted with Him, which should lead to having that Father/child relationship with Him by spending time with Him.

Those spoken of in Rom 1:21 observe God but rather than turn toward Him, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

FranC said:

The whole of 2 Peter 2 talks about false prophets and false teachers. That is who is being spoken of in 2 Peter 2:20. There is mention in the verses of those who are deceived by these false prophets / teachers, but the focus and subject of 2 Peter 2:20 are those false prophets and false teachers.

Those who are deceived by the false prophets / teachers never escaped the pollutions of the world because they listened to prophets / teachers who count it pleasure to riot in the day time (vs 13), they have eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin (vs 14), they have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray (vs 15), they are wells without water, carried with a tempest (vs 17), they speak great swelling words of vanity (vs 18), they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption (vs 19).

Those who listen to the false prophet / teacher cannot be considered as having escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ because the false prophet / teacher does not teach about Him. The false prophet / teacher speaks great swelling words of vanity (vs 18), they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption (vs 19).

FranC said:

The false prophets / teachers spoken of in 2 Peter 2 are the ones who have gone through the training of a prophet / teacher. Even back in the days Scripture was written there were schools for prophets and those who taught Scripture.

Have you ever read Matt 23 where Jesus Christ pronounces the woes to the scribes and pharisees?

Scribes and pharisees were supposed to be trained in the things of God in order to teach the people. However, as we read the gospels, Jesus railed against the scribes and pharisees due to their mishandling of the Word of God which had been entrusted to them.

That is why I brought up those studies. Same thing goes on today, as shown in the article which indicates that one third of clergy do not believe in the resurrection. No wonder the church is in the state it is today. We've got teachers in the pulpit who do not believe in the resurrection. Truly a sad situation.

FranC · May 25, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

No, the word "Know" in verse 21 does not mean "Know in the heart and soul". The word "Know" in verse 21 means to perceive or realize. Can one look at the universe as shown in verse 20 (the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made) and come to the conclusion that there is a Creator? Yes.

But to "Know in the heart and soul" is a deeper knowing than just to perceive, observe and conclude.

The difference between "Know" and "Know in the heart and soul" is shown by the context as well as the Greek word gnontes used in verse 21. That word does not mean to "Know in the heart and soul".

The word gnontes can be explained as your knowledge of a famous person through media as opposed to your knowledge of your mother or father or siblings or spouse ... someone you have lived with and know more intimately.

Using your sig as an example: I "know" Paul Hewson (Bono). However, I do not "know" him like I "knew" my husband (who I lived with for 40 years before he passed away), or like I "know" my sisters, who I grew up with and with whom I still have a relationship.

That is the difference between gnontes and ginōskō.

And to "know" (gnontes) God and not glorify Him as God is enough to cause the unbeliever to be without excuse.

I agree that a person can read the context and, without studying the Greek, can understand that the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 means to perceive.

We also need to use discernment when reading the text. Even in the English language the word "know" covers the range of to have an awareness to being acquainted to having a relationship through spending time with someone.

So to "know" God through observing creation brings us an awareness of Him, which should lead to becoming acquainted with Him, which should lead to having that Father/child relationship with Him by spending time with Him.

Those spoken of in Rom 1:21 observe God but rather than turn toward Him, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

The whole of 2 Peter 2 talks about false prophets and false teachers. That is who is being spoken of in 2 Peter 2:20. There is mention in the verses of those who are deceived by these false prophets / teachers, but the focus and subject of 2 Peter 2:20 are those false prophets and false teachers.

Those who are deceived by the false prophets / teachers never escaped the pollutions of the world because they listened to prophets / teachers who count it pleasure to riot in the day time (vs 13), they have eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin (vs 14), they have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray (vs 15), they are wells without water, carried with a tempest (vs 17), they speak great swelling words of vanity (vs 18), they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption (vs 19).

Those who listen to the false prophet / teacher cannot be considered as having escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ because the false prophet / teacher does not teach about Him. The false prophet / teacher speaks great swelling words of vanity (vs 18), they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption (vs 19).

The false prophets / teachers spoken of in 2 Peter 2 are the ones who have gone through the training of a prophet / teacher. Even back in the days Scripture was written there were schools for prophets and those who taught Scripture.

Have you ever read Matt 23 where Jesus Christ pronounces the woes to the scribes and pharisees?

Scribes and pharisees were supposed to be trained in the things of God in order to teach the people. However, as we read the gospels, Jesus railed against the scribes and pharisees due to their mishandling of the Word of God which had been entrusted to them.

That is why I brought up those studies. Same thing goes on today, as shown in the article which indicates that one third of clergy do not believe in the resurrection. No wonder the church is in the state it is today. We've got teachers in the pulpit who do not believe in the resurrection. Truly a sad situation.

You know Paul Hewson?
Did you hear what he had to say today about the terrorist attack?
Could you ask him why he's changed his mind about this since September 2015?
It would be intereting to know.

I thought the rabbi's taught the people their religion.

And, yes, it's truly a sad situation if a Christian doesn't believe in the resurrection.
There's plenty of proof for it.

I guess that would mean that Jesus was a crazy man and so were the Apostles, and pretty dishonest too, I'd say.

Blessings.

valiant · May 25, 2017

FranC said:

well I know koine Greek

Yes it is obvious even to those who do not know Koine Greek. The men under scrutiny were men who by their wickedness suppressed the truth. They knew about God from 'what was made' (His power and His deity) and yet they still did not truly believe in Him. This is the beginning of Pauls argument (to 3.20) that all men are condemned. There is no way in which these people 'knew' God in the deeper sense.

It doesn't matter as long as we realise they were not true believers.

irrelevant. we are looking at what professing Christians DID do.
SO...

Many people escape the defilement of the world by joining a church, whether they truly believe or not.

.

Yes because they have left the church to which they nominally belonged.

A nominal Christian who leaves the church tends to go into sin. It was the reason he left the church.

T

They joined the church and escaped defilement. It happens day. I do not see the word 'saved' It is a pure invention.

Through joining the church they had escaped the defilement of the world. So what of it. Many today in churches have done the same. Then they give up attendance and plunge into the world

verse21

well that is questionable. the way of righteousness in your sense is MAN's way of righteousness. (Rom 10.3)

known as a variety of meanings from general experiential knowledge to a deep relationship.

The holy commandment is the ethical commandments of the Christian church. It has nothing to do with the Gospel message.,

That is no good when you give your own meaning to the words.

Sagart · May 25, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

Time for the truth!

Rom. 1:21. διότι γνόντες τὸν Θεὸν οὐχ ὡς Θεὸν ἐδόξασαν ἢ εὐχαρίστησαν, ἀλλ᾿ ἐματαιώθησαν ἐν τοῖς διαλογισμοῖς αὐτῶν, καὶ ἐσκοτίσθη ἡ ἀσύνετος αὐτῶν καρδία·

Rom. 1:21. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (NASB, 1995)

γνόντεσ is the active aorist participle of the cognate verb γινώσκω. The form of the word found in lexicons. γινώσκω is used three times in John 14:7,

John 14:7. εἰ ἐγνώκειτέ με, καὶ τὸν πατέρα μου γνώκειτε ἄν. καὶ ἀπ᾿ ἄρτι γινώσκετε αὐτὸν καὶ ἑωράκατε αὐτόν.

John 14:7. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." (NASB, 1995)

It is also used in John 17:3,

John 17:3 αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή, ἵνα γινώσκωσι σὲ τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν Θεὸν καὶ ὃν ἀπέστειλας ᾿Ιησοῦν Χριστόν.

John 17:3. "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (NASB, 1995)

It is also used in 2 Cor. 5:16,

2 Cor. 5:16 ῞Ωστε ἡμεῖς ἀπὸ τοῦ νῦν οὐδένα οἴδαμεν κατὰ σάρκα· εἰ δὲ καὶ ἐγνώκαμεν κατὰ σάρκα Χριστόν, ἀλλὰ νῦν οὐκέτι γινώσκομεν.

2 Cor. 5:16. Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. (NASB, 1995)

Therefore, the word ‘know’ in Rom. 1:21 does not mean “to perceive or realize;” It means “to arrive at a knowledge of someone or something, know about, make acquaintance of” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition, The University of Chicago Press, 2000.

serpentdove · May 25, 2017

Blain said:

Many false converts believe in OSAS.

They knew

Jesus; but, Jesus never knew them (Mt 7:23).

"Man's own religion usually descends to the fleshly life to which they themselves practice." ~ Jim Andrews .

See:

Apostasy & Eternal Security
[SUB][/SUB]

Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

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