Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
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2 Peter 3v14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, [SUP]16 [/SUP]as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Fran - why are you surprised? The Lord said it would happen.
These "interpretations" are so contorted, that Nadia Comaneci wouldn't be able to fit into them !
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, [SUP]16 [/SUP]as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Fran - why are you surprised? The Lord said it would happen.
These "interpretations" are so contorted, that Nadia Comaneci wouldn't be able to fit into them !
2 Peter 3v14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, [SUP]16 [/SUP]as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Fran - why are you surprised? The Lord said it would happen.
These "interpretations" are so contorted, that Nadia Comaneci wouldn't be able to fit into them !
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; [SUP]15 [/SUP]and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, [SUP]16 [/SUP]as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
Fran - why are you surprised? The Lord said it would happen.
These "interpretations" are so contorted, that Nadia Comaneci wouldn't be able to fit into them !
The Lord bless you for being in agreement with the truth. Here is one more:
"Those of you who are trying to be justified by the Law have been cut off from the Messiah. You have fallen away from grace."
Paul said the above to the church of Galatia who were definitely believers and were being turned back to observing the law by some false teachers. by them being in that state he says that they had been cut off from Christ and had fallen away from grace.
"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,not by works, so that no one can boast.
"Those of you who are trying to be justified by the Law have been cut off from the Messiah. You have fallen away from grace."
Paul said the above to the church of Galatia who were definitely believers and were being turned back to observing the law by some false teachers. by them being in that state he says that they had been cut off from Christ and had fallen away from grace.
"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,not by works, so that no one can boast.
The opposing group is just confused. And really it's not their fault to have been taught wrong. Calvinism has polluted the gospel to the point people pick and choose the beliefs they want the gospel to say. Some choose just OSAS while others only agree with total depravity. I say I don't know what Calvin was smoking but none of this is Hyper-grace or once saved always saved crap is in my bible.
What is amazing is how creative people can twist scripture or try to put into context but leave out the parts that don't fit their belief. I used an HCSB study bible for a year or two. I just now got a new NIV study bible because most of the HCSB study bible I had was written by baptist and guess what doctrine was placed in the book of Romans? The Perseverance of the Saints aka OSAS. Did some more searching to find a lot of the commentary to be biased toward this belief.
I love my NIV study bible it's truthful and on interpreting certain hard scriptures it actually has all of the logical beliefs instead of being biased.
What's weird is most of these people believe in free will but then for some strange reason thinks it no longer exists after accepting Christ.
What is amazing is how creative people can twist scripture or try to put into context but leave out the parts that don't fit their belief. I used an HCSB study bible for a year or two. I just now got a new NIV study bible because most of the HCSB study bible I had was written by baptist and guess what doctrine was placed in the book of Romans? The Perseverance of the Saints aka OSAS. Did some more searching to find a lot of the commentary to be biased toward this belief.
I love my NIV study bible it's truthful and on interpreting certain hard scriptures it actually has all of the logical beliefs instead of being biased.
What's weird is most of these people believe in free will but then for some strange reason thinks it no longer exists after accepting Christ.
See Grace,
THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
It's Always something or other.
Or Jesus is talking to one or the other.
Or He doesn't REALLY MEAN what He says.
It doesn't matter that He's talking about the fJews and Jerusalem.
Do you think I'm dumb???
HE'S SAYING THAT HE WHO ENDURES TILL THE END WILL BE SAVED.
This to people who might be PERSECUTED. And THEY have to endure till the end.
HOW MUCH MORE DO WE have to ENDURE, that are NOT being persecuted???
Stop worrying about WHO Jesus is speaking to and start paying attention to WHAT He's saying!!!
THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
It's Always something or other.
Or Jesus is talking to one or the other.
Or He doesn't REALLY MEAN what He says.
It doesn't matter that He's talking about the fJews and Jerusalem.
Do you think I'm dumb???
HE'S SAYING THAT HE WHO ENDURES TILL THE END WILL BE SAVED.
This to people who might be PERSECUTED. And THEY have to endure till the end.
HOW MUCH MORE DO WE have to ENDURE, that are NOT being persecuted???
Stop worrying about WHO Jesus is speaking to and start paying attention to WHAT He's saying!!!
Lol, i have been down this rocky road with the same group on my Study on Apostasy thread. I dug down deep into a lot of these scriptures just to make sure. And now I am convinced 100% it's hard for a believer to fall into apostasy but not impossible. Satan is very real and doesn't stop trying to destroy us just because we accept Christ.
The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.
If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
We must not be surprised by this duality within this chat community.
There are those who love the Word, and love the truth. These will be saved.
Then there are those who love their sins, so contort the Word to accommodate these sins, and so sear their consciences. Because they did not receive the love of the truth, God sends them a strong delusion, that they believe the lie. Dislodging these people from this lie is almost an impossibility, for it is God that sends this delusion. The only way back for these people is to humble themselves. Because God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Distorting the scriptures (as we can see clearly is being done by a few parties) is the pinnacle of pride. It's their "Way" and not "God's Way". Their own intellect (which is not really intellect) is their god. They have enthroned themselves, professing to be wise - yet have become _____.
Pray for them that God may grant them repentance. They are enemies of the gospel of Christ. We are however to love our enemies.
There are those who love the Word, and love the truth. These will be saved.
Then there are those who love their sins, so contort the Word to accommodate these sins, and so sear their consciences. Because they did not receive the love of the truth, God sends them a strong delusion, that they believe the lie. Dislodging these people from this lie is almost an impossibility, for it is God that sends this delusion. The only way back for these people is to humble themselves. Because God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Distorting the scriptures (as we can see clearly is being done by a few parties) is the pinnacle of pride. It's their "Way" and not "God's Way". Their own intellect (which is not really intellect) is their god. They have enthroned themselves, professing to be wise - yet have become _____.
Pray for them that God may grant them repentance. They are enemies of the gospel of Christ. We are however to love our enemies.
What Grace777 and mailmandan said are true.
When people believe they can keep their salvation by their own maintenance, it is because they have a low view of sin, they think sin is what you do, when it's what you do, what you think of doing and what they are. So no one can stay saved, without confessing every second, because the standard is to be perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect, so we fail every second that we live. That is why it is Christ's perfection that is imputed to us, that we can be saved and stay saved. Not by any works of righteousness, so that we can boast or I'm saved because of my faith and I'm keeping it, noting we do saves us or keeps us saved.
Once the Spirit has infused us into Christ we can not unfuse us from Christ, it is called our union with Christ, the adoption, sealing of the Spirit, our justification. Roman law as USA law, if you adopt a child, in Rome you could also adopt adults. You have to leave them an inheritance, you can write off your own children, as the Father did with Christ, so that we could be adopted. Your nature children can not do anything to get part of your inheritance if you do not leave them anything, but an adopted child can and will get it because of the law. The whole world may be children of God, because he created all, but they do not have a right to an inheritance if He so choses not to leave them one, but we as adopted children have every right too an inheritance, which is our blessed hope our glorified bodies.
We are so close to Christ that when Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus said to him Saul, Saul why are you persecute me? Jesus did not say, Saul, Saul why are you persecuting my Church. We are so bonded with Christ that if we have illicit sex, we have joined Christ to that person as will as we are joined to them. There is something very special and mythical for leak of a better term. When two people have sex, they become one, weather married or not II Corinthians 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”
Once you are joined to Christ you are joined together with Him for ever, in the same way that once you have sex with someone you are one for as long as you live, maybe longer I don't know. There is a reason why all of our salvation is like a near eastern marriage, the father choses the bride for the son, as Abraham did for Isaac. The son does not know when he is going to go get his bride as jesus do not know when He will come for His bride, only the Father knows. And just as the two become one in a marriage, so we become one with Christ in our union with Him, when the father make us alive in Him and raises us with Christ and seats us in heavenly places. There is another thing, why would the Father see us in heavenly palaces if two minutes before I die I lose my salvation? It can not happen or the Father would not say by the Spirit that He set us in heaven already.
So no one could be saved if it depended on us, yes Jesus said lots of things that are demands to maintain a right standing before the Father, He did not say them because He thought you could keep them, He said them to the Jews so they could see that they could not keep them and rely on His grace, not their works. Jesus said many things that are needed to keep ones salvation if you are keeping your salvation by works of the Law. The Law is the foundation of Christ, to bring us to the knowledge of sin Romans 3:19-20, once we see that we could never keep the Law top maintain our salvation, we rely on His grace to keep us saved.
When people believe they can keep their salvation by their own maintenance, it is because they have a low view of sin, they think sin is what you do, when it's what you do, what you think of doing and what they are. So no one can stay saved, without confessing every second, because the standard is to be perfect like your heavenly Father is perfect, so we fail every second that we live. That is why it is Christ's perfection that is imputed to us, that we can be saved and stay saved. Not by any works of righteousness, so that we can boast or I'm saved because of my faith and I'm keeping it, noting we do saves us or keeps us saved.
Once the Spirit has infused us into Christ we can not unfuse us from Christ, it is called our union with Christ, the adoption, sealing of the Spirit, our justification. Roman law as USA law, if you adopt a child, in Rome you could also adopt adults. You have to leave them an inheritance, you can write off your own children, as the Father did with Christ, so that we could be adopted. Your nature children can not do anything to get part of your inheritance if you do not leave them anything, but an adopted child can and will get it because of the law. The whole world may be children of God, because he created all, but they do not have a right to an inheritance if He so choses not to leave them one, but we as adopted children have every right too an inheritance, which is our blessed hope our glorified bodies.
We are so close to Christ that when Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus said to him Saul, Saul why are you persecute me? Jesus did not say, Saul, Saul why are you persecuting my Church. We are so bonded with Christ that if we have illicit sex, we have joined Christ to that person as will as we are joined to them. There is something very special and mythical for leak of a better term. When two people have sex, they become one, weather married or not II Corinthians 6:15-16 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”
Once you are joined to Christ you are joined together with Him for ever, in the same way that once you have sex with someone you are one for as long as you live, maybe longer I don't know. There is a reason why all of our salvation is like a near eastern marriage, the father choses the bride for the son, as Abraham did for Isaac. The son does not know when he is going to go get his bride as jesus do not know when He will come for His bride, only the Father knows. And just as the two become one in a marriage, so we become one with Christ in our union with Him, when the father make us alive in Him and raises us with Christ and seats us in heavenly places. There is another thing, why would the Father see us in heavenly palaces if two minutes before I die I lose my salvation? It can not happen or the Father would not say by the Spirit that He set us in heaven already.
So no one could be saved if it depended on us, yes Jesus said lots of things that are demands to maintain a right standing before the Father, He did not say them because He thought you could keep them, He said them to the Jews so they could see that they could not keep them and rely on His grace, not their works. Jesus said many things that are needed to keep ones salvation if you are keeping your salvation by works of the Law. The Law is the foundation of Christ, to bring us to the knowledge of sin Romans 3:19-20, once we see that we could never keep the Law top maintain our salvation, we rely on His grace to keep us saved.
I couldn't agree more with all you've said.
I read the NASB. But I agree with what you've said aboutthe NIV. It presents both views.
Problem is.... JESUS had only ONE view, and not two.
Have you ever studied the early Christians?
Plycarp knew an Apostle, probably John.
Ignatius of Antioch Knew John and studied with him.
NONE of the early Christians Fathers believed in OSAS, or eternal security. I've posted this a couple of times here.
It goes UNNOTICED because it's not a very comfortable teaching. It's better to believe one could never be lost again, NO MATTER WHAT. What nonsense. (just Google what the early Church fathers believed about eternal security.)
I am also amazed at the creativity. Oh. And if one doesn't know GREEK, how could the N.T. EVER BE UNDERSTOOD.
More nonsense.
I must leave here. But I encourage you.
Onward Christian soldier!!
I read the NASB. But I agree with what you've said aboutthe NIV. It presents both views.
Problem is.... JESUS had only ONE view, and not two.
Have you ever studied the early Christians?
Plycarp knew an Apostle, probably John.
Ignatius of Antioch Knew John and studied with him.
NONE of the early Christians Fathers believed in OSAS, or eternal security. I've posted this a couple of times here.
It goes UNNOTICED because it's not a very comfortable teaching. It's better to believe one could never be lost again, NO MATTER WHAT. What nonsense. (just Google what the early Church fathers believed about eternal security.)
I am also amazed at the creativity. Oh. And if one doesn't know GREEK, how could the N.T. EVER BE UNDERSTOOD.
More nonsense.
I must leave here. But I encourage you.
Onward Christian soldier!!
This is the Will of God:
1 Thessalonians 4
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; [SUP]4 [/SUP]that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; [SUP]6 [/SUP]that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given[SUP][a][/SUP] us His Holy Spirit.
- jackpot question: does abstaining happen pre-conversion or post conversion ?
1 Thessalonians 4
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; [SUP]4 [/SUP]that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; [SUP]6 [/SUP]that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given[SUP][a][/SUP] us His Holy Spirit.
- jackpot question: does abstaining happen pre-conversion or post conversion ?
Morning my friend!
With all due respect, the scripture doesn't say that they might be cut off. But if they don't turn back to salvation by grace through faith and continue attempting to be justified by the law, then they will remain in their wandered state and will continue to be alienated from Christ.
How about John 15 regarding Jesus being the Vine and believers the branches? We know that he is talking to his disciples and therefore all believers.
I am not claiming anything foreign to scripture. I simply believe that a person is secure in their salvation if they continue in faith. In other words, a believer cannot turn back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, die in that state and expect to obtain salvation.
God is providing the grace and the believers part is faith. If we turn back to living according to the sinful nature we turned back to the world. We have stopped having faith. And while a person is in that state they are accumulating sin and are on their way to death.
I am just not one who believes in OSAS no matter what. But I believe in eternal security if a believer continues in faith.
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This is the Will of God:
1 Thessalonians 4
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; [SUP]4 [/SUP]that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; [SUP]6 [/SUP]that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given[SUP][a][/SUP] us His Holy Spirit.
- jackpot question: does abstaining happen pre-conversion or post conversion ?
1 Thessalonians 4
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; [SUP]4 [/SUP]that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; [SUP]6 [/SUP]that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given[SUP][a][/SUP] us His Holy Spirit.
- jackpot question: does abstaining happen pre-conversion or post conversion ?
I think we both agree that those who continue in faith will be saved. Saving faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. In regards to John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.
Are you implying here that everyone in the OSAS camp loves their sins, are in need of repentance and are enemies of the gospel of Christ? That would be a very strong judgmental statement that you are not qualified to make. What do YOU believe the gospel of Christ IS and what do YOU believe it means to BELIEVE the gospel? (Romans 1:16)