Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
- Thread starter Chris1975
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Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
D
The osas people might have some 2 cents to put in 
The question rarely asked is, "But are you really saved?"
Only long-term experience answered that one for myself. No clue for anyone else, (except hubby. But then again, I have long-term experience for him too. lol)
D
Knucklehead to knucklehead, yeah. I walked. I walked four times. And I'm rude when I walk. (Well, the last time I stopped being rude and just shut up. lol) But, yup. We were saved even before we walked, because God horse-collared us back to him.
Or to put it in nicer terms, the shepherd keeps digging the sheep out of the briar patch even as the stupid sheep keeps trying to dig in further. The Good Shepherd wins.
Or to put it in nicer terms, the shepherd keeps digging the sheep out of the briar patch even as the stupid sheep keeps trying to dig in further. The Good Shepherd wins.
D
I know you won't here this simply because it has to be your way or it's wrong, but I'm going to say it anyway, just in case someone else hears it.
Want to see a "Jew" living in perfect alliance between the Law and God's grace? Read Psalm 119! David did it! He saw the law for what it is -- a picture of God. And he used it to remember what it's supposed to remind of us -- God and his grace.
It's not work-based. It's not grace-based.
It's God based!!!
Want to see a "Jew" living in perfect alliance between the Law and God's grace? Read Psalm 119! David did it! He saw the law for what it is -- a picture of God. And he used it to remember what it's supposed to remind of us -- God and his grace.
It's not work-based. It's not grace-based.
It's God based!!!
Galatians 2:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Philippians 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
2 Timothy 2:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
Acts 20:32
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Philippians 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
2 Timothy 2:1
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
Acts 20:32
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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I totally believe that when God saves us, we can never lose our salvation. Aside from the many verses posted here, we have to just think and be logical a bit.
God is perfect, just, holy and he is also omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. That basically puts God totally out of our league, forever! But, thanks be to God, he sent Jesus to die in our place on the cross. He redeemed us and paid our ransom for sin, and he was the ultimate and perfect atonemet for all our sins.
So, God, who sees all, knows all, and can do anything, saves us. (Of course, if you think you have saved yourself somehow, this won't apply to you!) Now this mighty, powerful, amazing and all-seeing and all-knowing God, knows and sees us, saves us, and gives us the desire to repent and follow him completely!
I can't see anywhere it says that after God has done this incredible work in our lives, he is going to look down from heaven and say, "Oops, I had no idea Jill Smith or Joe Martin were going to sin and turn away from me like this! Rats! I blew it, saving them when they didn't deserve to be saved. Let me look back on my list from before the foundation of the world to see why I thought they deserved to be saved. Oh my, how could I have missed this. They were going to do something I don't like. Hmm, let me see - how to make them be UNBORN from above. I will have to think about this."
Poor God, imagine him making mistakes all over the place about saving people, and then losing them.
But, just to be fair - we do have to walk with Christ and obey him. That means sometimes that the external things we do, because they reflect our hearts, are important. In other words we are not to sin! We need to keep our slate clean with God. Repent and confess to him. And ask forgiveness of those we have heard.
God gives us the strength to do this. Not because he is a meanie, but because he wants us to grow in holiness and obedience as we walk with him. So, no antinomianism, or lawlessness allowed. Not because we will lose our salvation, but because God does want us to continue to change, and go where the Holy Spirit is leading us.
As we have seen in 100's (or so it seems) of posts, salvation is not "grace vs the law." Salvation is all about God! God saves, us, leads, guides us, changes us, and keeps us. When I turned away from God for 2 years, because of the pain of untreated Rheumatoid Arthritis, and the terrible beating I took for "not having enough faith" from Word Faith people, I was hurt and angry. I could see no end to my pain, my walk with God seemed like it was over, along with my life. But God not only knew, he never left me. I cannot understand how such deliberate disobedience could have been passed over, but God was always there. The Holy Spirit kept speaking to me. He told me to read 5 Psalms a day. It took months before I would pick up my Bible and do it, but it was amazing how God used the Psalms and brought me out of that dark place, and used it all for his glory!
Yes, once saved, always saved, but never forget it has to come with geniune repentance and confession of sin. And "God is in control."
God is perfect, just, holy and he is also omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. That basically puts God totally out of our league, forever! But, thanks be to God, he sent Jesus to die in our place on the cross. He redeemed us and paid our ransom for sin, and he was the ultimate and perfect atonemet for all our sins.
So, God, who sees all, knows all, and can do anything, saves us. (Of course, if you think you have saved yourself somehow, this won't apply to you!) Now this mighty, powerful, amazing and all-seeing and all-knowing God, knows and sees us, saves us, and gives us the desire to repent and follow him completely!
I can't see anywhere it says that after God has done this incredible work in our lives, he is going to look down from heaven and say, "Oops, I had no idea Jill Smith or Joe Martin were going to sin and turn away from me like this! Rats! I blew it, saving them when they didn't deserve to be saved. Let me look back on my list from before the foundation of the world to see why I thought they deserved to be saved. Oh my, how could I have missed this. They were going to do something I don't like. Hmm, let me see - how to make them be UNBORN from above. I will have to think about this."
Poor God, imagine him making mistakes all over the place about saving people, and then losing them.
But, just to be fair - we do have to walk with Christ and obey him. That means sometimes that the external things we do, because they reflect our hearts, are important. In other words we are not to sin! We need to keep our slate clean with God. Repent and confess to him. And ask forgiveness of those we have heard.
God gives us the strength to do this. Not because he is a meanie, but because he wants us to grow in holiness and obedience as we walk with him. So, no antinomianism, or lawlessness allowed. Not because we will lose our salvation, but because God does want us to continue to change, and go where the Holy Spirit is leading us.
As we have seen in 100's (or so it seems) of posts, salvation is not "grace vs the law." Salvation is all about God! God saves, us, leads, guides us, changes us, and keeps us. When I turned away from God for 2 years, because of the pain of untreated Rheumatoid Arthritis, and the terrible beating I took for "not having enough faith" from Word Faith people, I was hurt and angry. I could see no end to my pain, my walk with God seemed like it was over, along with my life. But God not only knew, he never left me. I cannot understand how such deliberate disobedience could have been passed over, but God was always there. The Holy Spirit kept speaking to me. He told me to read 5 Psalms a day. It took months before I would pick up my Bible and do it, but it was amazing how God used the Psalms and brought me out of that dark place, and used it all for his glory!
Yes, once saved, always saved, but never forget it has to come with geniune repentance and confession of sin. And "God is in control."
ASSURANCE OF SALVATION
Some believers struggle with a lack of assurance of salvation. Reasons for this lack of assurance include spiritual immaturity and poor teaching. Some teachers and pastors believe that a Christian can lose their salvation, which is untrue and harmful to the growth of a new believer. Spiritually sensitive individuals, who realize their brokenness, tend to dwell in fear and self-condemnation if they lack assurance. Dwelling in fear and self-condemnation causes a lack of productivity, and hinders the believer’s relationship with God. God doesn’t want us to fear losing our salvation. Fear is the opposite of love, and it does not belong in a loving relationship (I John 4:8). Scripture is emphatic that God has steadfast love for those who are His, and that he will not leave or forsake us (John 6:35-40; Hebrews 13:5). We are not under God’s wrath and condemnation once we are saved (John 5:24;Romans 8:1), and God is totally for us. No force can separate us from his love (Romans 8:31-35).
An important reason for having assurance of salvation is that one cannot really love God in the fullest sense unless he is secure in his salvation. Those who deny eternal security feel like the threat of impending condemnation is still a reality. This handicaps their ability to truly do good works out of love rather than fear of condemnation.
Their view of salvation is like a father holding a pistol to his head and demanding that his son love him. How much love would be reflected if the son does acts to show love in such circumstances?
It is very helpful to understand ten major reasons why we should have assurance in our salvation.
The first point to understand is that we received eternal life at the moment of salvation (John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:35-40; John 6:47; John 6:54; John 10:28-29; John 11:25; Romans 6:23; 1 John 5:11, I John 5: 13). Eternal means everlasting;without end. Eternal life is not probationary. It is nonsensical to claim otherwise.
The second point to understand is that salvation is God’s work. It is not our work (Psalm 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Matthew 19:25-26; John 6:39; Acts 28:28; Ephesians 1:11; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:28 ; Philippians 2:13). If salvation is God’s work, then the completion of it is based on his competency, not our own. Perseverance is guaranteed because it is based on his competency, not ours (Philippians 1:6; Jude 24). This is why Scripture speaks of our salvation in the past tense (Romans 8:28-30).
The third point is that eternal life and salvation is a free gift from God (Rom 5:15-17; Rom 6:23). Would God give us a free gift, then take it back again? The gifts and calling of God are without revocation (Rom 11:29).
The fourth point to understand is that, when we are saved, God adopted us as children (John 1:12; Romans 8:14-17 ; Galatians 4:4-7; Ephesians 1:5; 1 John 3:1). God chastened his children; he does not cast them away (Hebrews 12:4-11). The goal of chastening is to correct us when we stray.
The fifth point to understand is that our salvation does not depend on our performance. It is about what Christ has done on the cross and our faith in his sacrifice and its sufficiency (Romans 10:13; 1 Peter 2:6). God has already qualified us for his Kingdom through the sacrifice of his Son (Colossians 1:12-14). We are more than conquerors through him (Romans 8:37). Christ is the source of our righteousness, and he has made us sufficient (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 3:4-6). He made us perfect through his sacrifice (Hebrews 10:14). Our works do not add to what Christ did on the cross, and our salvation was earned at the cross (Romans 11:6).
The sixth point to understand is that you received a new nature at conversion that wants to obey God. We are a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). We are reborn when we are saved (John 3). Would a person with this new nature want to reject God? Those who claim you can lose your salvation are asserting that it is possible to go back to the old nature.
The seventh point to understand is that our assurance is based on Christ’s ministry of prayer and intercession on our behalf (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25; I John 2:1). Note especially Hebrews 7:25 that it is Christ who “saves to the uttermost” those who draw near to God.
Examples of Christ’s prayers for us include the prayers of Christ for Peter in Luke 22:31-34. Christ prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail. Christ also prayed for believers, including us, in John 17:6-26. He specifically mentioned in this prayer asking God to keep us from being lost (John 17: 11-12). Can anyone be a more powerful prayer warrior to have in our corner?
The eighth point to understand is that we enjoy unity with Christ when we were saved (Romans 6:5). We are no longer separate from Him, and that is why Scripture says we are in Christ(John 6:56; Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 13:5). We were baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3-4; Galatians 3:27). We were crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20). Christ lives in us (Romans 8:10-20; Galatians 2:20). We are identified with him totally. Scripture says that we died with Christ (Romans 6:8; Colossians 2:20), are buried with Christ (Romans 6:4), were made alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:5), were risen with Christ (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 3:1) and are hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3). We experience unity with Christ in many ways…we are inseparable from him.
Unity with Christ has importance with regards to security as well. Christ does not deny us because he cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:11-13). Our unity with Christ is a powerful reason why he will not reject us.
The ninth point to understand is that God has covenanted with Christians in regards to eternal life, and that we can rely on God’s covenant love and loyalty, which endures forever. God’s covenant love is hesed in Hebrew. As an example of what God says about his covenant love, see Psalm 136. It repeatedly states that God’s steadfast love, or covenant love, endures forever. Another example of this covenant loyalty is found with ancient Israel. God has not given up on ancient Israel despite their lack of loyalty, as Romans 11 indicates.
This Hebrew word hesed is rendered steadfast love in the ESV. It would be a good exercise to scan through the Old Testament to see how often this word is mentioned in relation to those God has covenanted with. It is mentioned many, many times.
The tenth point to understand relates to God’s attributes. One of the attributes of God is omniscience. God knows everything, including all details about the future (Is. 46:10). How does this relate to assurance of salvation?
If God knows the details of the future, why would he bring someone to salvation, give them eternal life, and work within their life, then reach a point of giving up on them due to some sin? Is God schizophrenic? Why would he bother bringing someone to salvation if he knew the person was going to commit some sin that was going to cause them to reject Him totally and finally? As mentioned previously, he has not given up on ancient Israel, despite their sins (Romans 11).
Those who think a believer can lose their salvation don’t seem to understand God’s attributes. He knows the end from the beginning, and knows every sin the person will commit before they are saved. How would God be able to relate to a person honestly and in love if he knew that they were going to be lost at some point?
Only those who are saved should be assured of their salvation, though. Those who haven’t placed their faith in Christ are under God’s wrath. So, it’s important to know whether you are saved or not. How do you know if you’re saved? Scripture teaches that we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5).
We should examine the fruits of our salvation to see if they are present. Fruits are borne over time, so a new Christian may not be able to recognize these fruits earlier in their Christian walk. So, if you are young in the faith and don’t recognize these fruits earlier in your Christian walk, do not be discouraged. Over time, though, if you don’t observe these fruits in your life, you may have reason to consider whether you were saved. The fact that you are concerned is a good sign. Those who are not saved have little or no concern for their relationship with God.
1 John was written to give believers the assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13). It gives signs of true believers. The first sign is that they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, the son of God and his sacrifice for forgiveness of their sins (1 John 4:15; I John 5:1; 1 John 5:5). A second sign is that they do not practice a habitual lifestyle of sin (1 John 3:9; I John 5:2). This does not mean that Christians cease to sin at conversion; it means that they do not continue to practice their sin with no concern for their disobedience. A third sign is that they continue with the Christian faith; they persevere in the faith (Hebrews 3:14; 1 John 2:19). A fourth sign is that they love the brethren (1 John 3:14-16; I John 4:7-12;I John 4:21). A fifth sign is that they have the Holy Spirit, which is an internal witness that we belong to God (1 John 3:24).
Scripture is clear in teaching that believers have eternal security. It is also clear in teaching that those who are saved depart from evil (2 Timothy 2:19). Believers may experience long periods of spiritual fruitlessness, but they will never fall away from the faith completely and finally.
The fact that Christians struggling against a sin is a proof that they are saved. All believers struggle with such issues in their lives. Those who claim otherwise are either deceived or lying. The new believer should just keep on confessing the sin, and asking for cleansing, as I John 1:8-9 teaches.
Regular confession is very important. We never outgrow our need for God’s grace and our need for a Savior. Satan wants us to get frustrated, and to think that our situation is hopeless. There is no believer who wants to get back into close relationship with God who cannot do so.
What about Scriptures that seem to indicate you can lose your salvation? Addressing each individual Scripture would be time consuming. However, here is a few examples that are typical explanations of those Scriptures:
Some believers struggle with a lack of assurance of salvation. Reasons for this lack of assurance include spiritual immaturity and poor teaching. Some teachers and pastors believe that a Christian can lose their salvation, which is untrue and harmful to the growth of a new believer. Spiritually sensitive individuals, who realize their brokenness, tend to dwell in fear and self-condemnation if they lack assurance. Dwelling in fear and self-condemnation causes a lack of productivity, and hinders the believer’s relationship with God. God doesn’t want us to fear losing our salvation. Fear is the opposite of love, and it does not belong in a loving relationship (I John 4:8). Scripture is emphatic that God has steadfast love for those who are His, and that he will not leave or forsake us (John 6:35-40; Hebrews 13:5). We are not under God’s wrath and condemnation once we are saved (John 5:24;Romans 8:1), and God is totally for us. No force can separate us from his love (Romans 8:31-35).
An important reason for having assurance of salvation is that one cannot really love God in the fullest sense unless he is secure in his salvation. Those who deny eternal security feel like the threat of impending condemnation is still a reality. This handicaps their ability to truly do good works out of love rather than fear of condemnation.
Their view of salvation is like a father holding a pistol to his head and demanding that his son love him. How much love would be reflected if the son does acts to show love in such circumstances?
It is very helpful to understand ten major reasons why we should have assurance in our salvation.
The first point to understand is that we received eternal life at the moment of salvation (John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:35-40; John 6:47; John 6:54; John 10:28-29; John 11:25; Romans 6:23; 1 John 5:11, I John 5: 13). Eternal means everlasting;without end. Eternal life is not probationary. It is nonsensical to claim otherwise.
The second point to understand is that salvation is God’s work. It is not our work (Psalm 3:8; Jonah 2:9; Matthew 19:25-26; John 6:39; Acts 28:28; Ephesians 1:11; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:28 ; Philippians 2:13). If salvation is God’s work, then the completion of it is based on his competency, not our own. Perseverance is guaranteed because it is based on his competency, not ours (Philippians 1:6; Jude 24). This is why Scripture speaks of our salvation in the past tense (Romans 8:28-30).
The third point is that eternal life and salvation is a free gift from God (Rom 5:15-17; Rom 6:23). Would God give us a free gift, then take it back again? The gifts and calling of God are without revocation (Rom 11:29).
The fourth point to understand is that, when we are saved, God adopted us as children (John 1:12; Romans 8:14-17 ; Galatians 4:4-7; Ephesians 1:5; 1 John 3:1). God chastened his children; he does not cast them away (Hebrews 12:4-11). The goal of chastening is to correct us when we stray.
The fifth point to understand is that our salvation does not depend on our performance. It is about what Christ has done on the cross and our faith in his sacrifice and its sufficiency (Romans 10:13; 1 Peter 2:6). God has already qualified us for his Kingdom through the sacrifice of his Son (Colossians 1:12-14). We are more than conquerors through him (Romans 8:37). Christ is the source of our righteousness, and he has made us sufficient (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 3:4-6). He made us perfect through his sacrifice (Hebrews 10:14). Our works do not add to what Christ did on the cross, and our salvation was earned at the cross (Romans 11:6).
The sixth point to understand is that you received a new nature at conversion that wants to obey God. We are a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). We are reborn when we are saved (John 3). Would a person with this new nature want to reject God? Those who claim you can lose your salvation are asserting that it is possible to go back to the old nature.
The seventh point to understand is that our assurance is based on Christ’s ministry of prayer and intercession on our behalf (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25; I John 2:1). Note especially Hebrews 7:25 that it is Christ who “saves to the uttermost” those who draw near to God.
Examples of Christ’s prayers for us include the prayers of Christ for Peter in Luke 22:31-34. Christ prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail. Christ also prayed for believers, including us, in John 17:6-26. He specifically mentioned in this prayer asking God to keep us from being lost (John 17: 11-12). Can anyone be a more powerful prayer warrior to have in our corner?
The eighth point to understand is that we enjoy unity with Christ when we were saved (Romans 6:5). We are no longer separate from Him, and that is why Scripture says we are in Christ(John 6:56; Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 13:5). We were baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3-4; Galatians 3:27). We were crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20). Christ lives in us (Romans 8:10-20; Galatians 2:20). We are identified with him totally. Scripture says that we died with Christ (Romans 6:8; Colossians 2:20), are buried with Christ (Romans 6:4), were made alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:5), were risen with Christ (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 3:1) and are hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3). We experience unity with Christ in many ways…we are inseparable from him.
Unity with Christ has importance with regards to security as well. Christ does not deny us because he cannot deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:11-13). Our unity with Christ is a powerful reason why he will not reject us.
The ninth point to understand is that God has covenanted with Christians in regards to eternal life, and that we can rely on God’s covenant love and loyalty, which endures forever. God’s covenant love is hesed in Hebrew. As an example of what God says about his covenant love, see Psalm 136. It repeatedly states that God’s steadfast love, or covenant love, endures forever. Another example of this covenant loyalty is found with ancient Israel. God has not given up on ancient Israel despite their lack of loyalty, as Romans 11 indicates.
This Hebrew word hesed is rendered steadfast love in the ESV. It would be a good exercise to scan through the Old Testament to see how often this word is mentioned in relation to those God has covenanted with. It is mentioned many, many times.
The tenth point to understand relates to God’s attributes. One of the attributes of God is omniscience. God knows everything, including all details about the future (Is. 46:10). How does this relate to assurance of salvation?
If God knows the details of the future, why would he bring someone to salvation, give them eternal life, and work within their life, then reach a point of giving up on them due to some sin? Is God schizophrenic? Why would he bother bringing someone to salvation if he knew the person was going to commit some sin that was going to cause them to reject Him totally and finally? As mentioned previously, he has not given up on ancient Israel, despite their sins (Romans 11).
Those who think a believer can lose their salvation don’t seem to understand God’s attributes. He knows the end from the beginning, and knows every sin the person will commit before they are saved. How would God be able to relate to a person honestly and in love if he knew that they were going to be lost at some point?
Only those who are saved should be assured of their salvation, though. Those who haven’t placed their faith in Christ are under God’s wrath. So, it’s important to know whether you are saved or not. How do you know if you’re saved? Scripture teaches that we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2 Cor 13:5).
We should examine the fruits of our salvation to see if they are present. Fruits are borne over time, so a new Christian may not be able to recognize these fruits earlier in their Christian walk. So, if you are young in the faith and don’t recognize these fruits earlier in your Christian walk, do not be discouraged. Over time, though, if you don’t observe these fruits in your life, you may have reason to consider whether you were saved. The fact that you are concerned is a good sign. Those who are not saved have little or no concern for their relationship with God.
1 John was written to give believers the assurance of their salvation (1 John 5:13). It gives signs of true believers. The first sign is that they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, the son of God and his sacrifice for forgiveness of their sins (1 John 4:15; I John 5:1; 1 John 5:5). A second sign is that they do not practice a habitual lifestyle of sin (1 John 3:9; I John 5:2). This does not mean that Christians cease to sin at conversion; it means that they do not continue to practice their sin with no concern for their disobedience. A third sign is that they continue with the Christian faith; they persevere in the faith (Hebrews 3:14; 1 John 2:19). A fourth sign is that they love the brethren (1 John 3:14-16; I John 4:7-12;I John 4:21). A fifth sign is that they have the Holy Spirit, which is an internal witness that we belong to God (1 John 3:24).
Scripture is clear in teaching that believers have eternal security. It is also clear in teaching that those who are saved depart from evil (2 Timothy 2:19). Believers may experience long periods of spiritual fruitlessness, but they will never fall away from the faith completely and finally.
The fact that Christians struggling against a sin is a proof that they are saved. All believers struggle with such issues in their lives. Those who claim otherwise are either deceived or lying. The new believer should just keep on confessing the sin, and asking for cleansing, as I John 1:8-9 teaches.
Regular confession is very important. We never outgrow our need for God’s grace and our need for a Savior. Satan wants us to get frustrated, and to think that our situation is hopeless. There is no believer who wants to get back into close relationship with God who cannot do so.
What about Scriptures that seem to indicate you can lose your salvation? Addressing each individual Scripture would be time consuming. However, here is a few examples that are typical explanations of those Scriptures:
- Those who leave the faith were never really saved to start with (I John 2:19). Examples of such individuals include Judas Iscariot. He is commonly used as an example of a saved person who left the faith. However, Scripture is clear in teaching that he was never a believer (John 6:64). In fact, Scripture calls him a devil (John 6:70-71).
- Some Scriptures are talking about losing the ability to share the gospel message, rather than loss of salvation. Examples of this are in Revelation 2:5, where Christ said that the church at Ephesus was subject to having its lampstand removed. This removal was talking about the removal of their opportunity to preach the Gospel message, not loss of salvation.
- There are warnings in Scripture concerning the need to persevere. These warnings are part of what God uses to keep us in the faith.
I view those who deny eternal security to be much like the ten Israelite spies, who were fearful and projected a negative view of God and his ability to deliver the Israelites, and the fearful Israelite army who faced Goliath, whereas the example of the faithful ones, Joshua, Caleb, and David, was much, much different....they were bold in God's strength and did not focus on themselves and their pitiful self-effort, which fails us constantly. One set of individuals focuses on self-effort; the other focuses on the transforming power of God's Holy Spirit...these two mentalities are as far apart from one another as day and night.
This is an either or situation. This is why it is a false proposition.
God says this is me, these are my ways. You have to know me and have me transform you
into my likeness to walk in these ways.
So both you have to believe Him and be changed and follow.
So faith has to be present, obedience has to be present and repentance, transformation.
So if you take the proposition from both angles you will fail which is why deception works
both angles, as if either end have it right, when actually both have it mistaken.
The believers started in a strange place and then moved to its mirror opposite which equally
is no better, as if either is a choice, or even what Jesus is talking about nothing is actually
gained though the argument rages it is somewhat pointless.
God says this is me, these are my ways. You have to know me and have me transform you
into my likeness to walk in these ways.
So both you have to believe Him and be changed and follow.
So faith has to be present, obedience has to be present and repentance, transformation.
So if you take the proposition from both angles you will fail which is why deception works
both angles, as if either end have it right, when actually both have it mistaken.
The believers started in a strange place and then moved to its mirror opposite which equally
is no better, as if either is a choice, or even what Jesus is talking about nothing is actually
gained though the argument rages it is somewhat pointless.
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Yes, it is possible to fall away from the Christian faith.
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)
Up until the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.
The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.
The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”
The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.
The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.
The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.
The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.
The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.
The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.
Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.
Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.
Because of the severity of the Greek word translated “impossible” in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.
Shall not the Christians who fight tooth and nail to detract from the warning of this passage have the blood upon their hands of those who lose their salvation because they were told the warning did not apply to them and they got careless as a result?
Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)
Up until the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.
The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.
The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”
The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.
The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.
The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.
The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.
The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.
The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.
Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.
Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.
Because of the severity of the Greek word translated “impossible” in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.
Shall not the Christians who fight tooth and nail to detract from the warning of this passage have the blood upon their hands of those who lose their salvation because they were told the warning did not apply to them and they got careless as a result?
This is one of the very many passages in the Bible that, due to its being carelessly read out of context, has resulted in one of the most devastating doctrines ever conceived by men.
John 10:27-29, when compared with the parallel passage in Isa. 43:1-28, teach that the Christian’s security is conditional upon his continued faithfulness.
John 10:27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.”
And finally,
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.”
The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.
Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!
(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)
John 10:27-29, when compared with the parallel passage in Isa. 43:1-28, teach that the Christian’s security is conditional upon his continued faithfulness.
John 10:27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.”
And finally,
28. “So I will pollute the princes of the sanctuary, And I will consign Jacob to the ban and Israel to revilement.”
The New Revised Standard Version translates v. 28,
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.
Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!
(All quotations from the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)
What's the Law got to do with it?
Yep, sounds good, but doesn't imply anything permanent, nor disprove falling away.
Again, says nothing about guaranteeing forever salvation without the possibility of falling away. Nice verse..... it tells the church to do something, as if you can't just slide in irresponsibly.
I don't know why you posted any of these..... none of them proves your point.
Again, says nothing about guaranteeing forever salvation without the possibility of falling away. Nice verse..... it tells the church to do something, as if you can't just slide in irresponsibly.
I don't know why you posted any of these..... none of them proves your point.
I must say I'm at a loss here. Up to now, I've never heard you say you were OSAS.
Gal. 5:1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
What about the churches in Revelation who were told, "repent, or else"?
Gal. 5:1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. 9A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. 10I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.11But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. 12I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
Hebrews 6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
What about the churches in Revelation who were told, "repent, or else"?
