Falling back slain in the spirit?

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TheLearner

Active member
Jan 14, 2019
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#61
What the scripture reference and context? or from the history of Josef Smith the false, prophet false apostle?

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Colossians 2;18
Yes, that is the false prophet teacher JS of mormonism. I have had Pentecostals quote it to justify their practice. I thought I gave a link. oops. Personally, I see the whole thing as showmanship and emotionalism.
 

TheLearner

Active member
Jan 14, 2019
935
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#62
It sounds like you are giving an excuse for why we today are not doing the works and miracles that Christ did.
I on the other hand acknowledge truth in the Word, and realize that I do not fully believe on Christ.

curious, do you know anyone who visits hospitals today to heal everyone?
 

TheLearner

Active member
Jan 14, 2019
935
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#64

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,573
4,389
113
#65
The Pharisees were the sign seekers and fit the charismatics ideology .
There's just one massive problem with this analogy: the Pharisees rejected Jesus' divinity; for all their excesses, the charismatics embrace it.
 

TheLearner

Active member
Jan 14, 2019
935
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#66
No catcher. I can't even remember hitting the floor.

I'm a woman...thus I get emotional a lot. Nothing ever hits me though.

Such unbelieving believers we have produced from keeping Holy Spirit bound by that unbelief.

If you are a learner, why don't you see the miracles and the power in the scriptures? And believe the Word!

Trouble is now....we have those being sent here to cause division. Jesus did say that there was coming a time that persecution would rise in the name of religion.
We have a more knowledgeable culture today science wise. God has blessed us with medicine, etc.,
Christian Doctors have put together protocols for discerning genuine healing.
Others have followed up with those who claimed to healed in Pentecostal Services, only to find the condition was still there.
Pentecostals make excuses like they lost their healing. Where does it say anyone healed by Jesus lost their healing?

Mormonism for example when it first got started had a lot of speaking in tongues.
Pentecostal services I have visited with friends claims that they heard Hebrew being spoken.
My first language was Hebrew, So I would take them to my house and put on a Hebrew movie and not tell them it is Hebrew.
They would then say that they do not recognize the language being spoken, could you put on a movie in English?
I would explain they just heard real Hebrew.
I once read my shopping list off in Hebrew at a pentecostal church and was surprised by the interpretation related to supporting their missionaries since it was a missionary awareness week.
Rarely, an interpretation is given that matches the length of the tongue, language message given.
Friends who speaks other languages have visited pentecostal churches through the years saying something in their langue.
And, never has anyone gotten the interpretation correct.
Wisdom dictates for one to be suspicious of claims that when tested do not hold true.
Language experts have never identified anything that even resembles a language in those meetings.
Research where a message in a language is played for someone have they ever from speaking in the spirit as they claim have even come
close to getting the correct understanding of the that language.
You would think a God who can make an animal speak if giving an interpretation would be able to get the true meaning of tongue correct.
This all tells me that much of what I have seen in pentecostal circles is not genuine from God or from the Holy Spirit.

It is not a question of unbelief on my part, just testing to see if it is really true.
 

TheLearner

Active member
Jan 14, 2019
935
231
43
#67
It sounds like you are giving an excuse for why we today are not doing the works and miracles that Christ did.
I on the other hand acknowledge truth in the Word, and realize that I do not fully believe on Christ.

For your edification,
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/roxli-doss-dipg-tumor-cancer_us_5c192e63e4b08db9905846a6
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-2018-inspiring-medical-miracles/2373454002/

Basically, this one meets some of the criteria set up by Christian Doctors to test healing.
There will be long term follow up.

Somewhere, after Jesus healed someone He told them to go the Priests to be examined to verify the Healing.

If Pentecostalism today really was doing miracles like Jesus did, then they would not have to make excuses for losing one's healing. Those excuses is a red flag that what is happening there is not like the healing of Jesus.
They would also invite examination of those healed.

Extraordinarily claims requires extraordinarily proof.

Isaiah 43:9All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble. Which of their gods foretold this and proclaimed to us the former things? Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”

1 Thessalonians 5:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,

Leviticus 13:6 The priest shall examine you again on the seventh day, and if the sore has faded and has not spread, he shall pronounce you ritually clean; it is only a sore. You shall wash your clothes and be ritually clean.

Matthew 8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! Don't tell anyone, but go straight to the priest and let him examine you; then in order to prove to everyone that you are cured, offer the sacrifice that Moses ordered.”

Mark 1:44 after saying to him, “Listen, don't tell anyone about this. But go straight to the priest and let him examine you; then in order to prove to everyone that you are cured, offer the sacrifice that Moses ordered.”

Luke 5:14 Jesus ordered him, “Don't tell anyone, but go straight to the priest and let him examine you; then to prove to everyone that you are cured, offer the sacrifice as Moses ordered.”

Luke 17:14 Jesus saw them and said to them, “Go and let the priests examine you.” On the way they were made clean.

We are expected to test things and when they don't add up set such aside.

Hebrews 1 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors many times and in many ways through the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. He is the one through whom God created the universe, the one whom God has chosen to possess all things at the end. 3 He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

Eph 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



I believes that Spiritual Gifts are for today, but we are to test them to make sure they are in fact real.

The claim that one is not healed due to lack a faith on their part is just a Pentecostal Excuse.

James 5
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

In James 5, the burden of having enough faith is placed on the one praying to heal others, not on the one being prayed for.

There were places where the early church could not heal due to lack of faith in the community as a whole.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,076
83
48
#69
Not a excuse just a opinion.

Much of what was being done when Christ was here had to do to be used as credentials seeing the reformation had come and turned things upside down and the word of God as all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura ) was doing its work of restoring the government of God. When he left taking a little wine for stomach aliments was the procedure and the miracle of pharmaceutical knowledge increased.

And besides that men did not perform miracles as if God was served by human hands to begin with. I consider every day I wake up on the green side of the grass a miracle . Miracles are miracles nothing more and nothing less. God is God nothing less
I recognize your perspective as an excuse for why people today are not doing the miracles and even greater miracles that Christ did, which Jesus said those who believe on Him would do.
You either believe the scripture and recognize yourself not fully believing on Christ, or you make an excuse for the Word and deceive yourself into thinking you do fully believe on Christ.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,076
83
48
#70
For your edification,
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/roxli-doss-dipg-tumor-cancer_us_5c192e63e4b08db9905846a6
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-2018-inspiring-medical-miracles/2373454002/

Basically, this one meets some of the criteria set up by Christian Doctors to test healing.
There will be long term follow up.

Somewhere, after Jesus healed someone He told them to go the Priests to be examined to verify the Healing.

If Pentecostalism today really was doing miracles like Jesus did, then they would not have to make excuses for losing one's healing. Those excuses is a red flag that what is happening there is not like the healing of Jesus.
They would also invite examination of those healed.

Extraordinarily claims requires extraordinarily proof.

Isaiah 43:9All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble. Which of their gods foretold this and proclaimed to us the former things? Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”

1 Thessalonians 5:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 but test them all; hold on to what is good,

Leviticus 13:6 The priest shall examine you again on the seventh day, and if the sore has faded and has not spread, he shall pronounce you ritually clean; it is only a sore. You shall wash your clothes and be ritually clean.

Matthew 8:4 Then Jesus said to him, “Listen! Don't tell anyone, but go straight to the priest and let him examine you; then in order to prove to everyone that you are cured, offer the sacrifice that Moses ordered.”

Mark 1:44 after saying to him, “Listen, don't tell anyone about this. But go straight to the priest and let him examine you; then in order to prove to everyone that you are cured, offer the sacrifice that Moses ordered.”

Luke 5:14 Jesus ordered him, “Don't tell anyone, but go straight to the priest and let him examine you; then to prove to everyone that you are cured, offer the sacrifice as Moses ordered.”

Luke 17:14 Jesus saw them and said to them, “Go and let the priests examine you.” On the way they were made clean.

We are expected to test things and when they don't add up set such aside.

Hebrews 1 Good News Translation (GNT)
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors many times and in many ways through the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. He is the one through whom God created the universe, the one whom God has chosen to possess all things at the end. 3 He reflects the brightness of God's glory and is the exact likeness of God's own being, sustaining the universe with his powerful word. After achieving forgiveness for the sins of all human beings, he sat down in heaven at the right side of God, the Supreme Power.

Eph 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:



I believes that Spiritual Gifts are for today, but we are to test them to make sure they are in fact real.

The claim that one is not healed due to lack a faith on their part is just a Pentecostal Excuse.

James 5
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

In James 5, the burden of having enough faith is placed on the one praying to heal others, not on the one being prayed for.

There were places where the early church could not heal due to lack of faith in the community as a whole.
Very good post, with your perspective backed up with scriptures, and not with excuses which contradict the Word.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
338
83
#71
I can believe an honest emotional euphoria in your congregation, but were there miracles going on as well?

As a small town congregation of around 200 members, we saw the normal (what I call normal) miracles take place. There were a couple cases of people being diagnosed with cancer and being prepped for chemo, that after being prayed for were cancer free. The person was allowed to have before/after x-ray images, and you could see where there was something on one and it was gone on the other. We never had the crippled or wheel chair get up an walk, but we also did not have anyone in that condition. There were some other situations that did happen, but it's an argument of whether you see it as a miracle or accept it medically as a fluke. But there was no shortage of people who did/still walk in faith and believe the impossible is possible to this very day.
 

obedienttogod

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
1,012
338
83
#72
I enjoy Charles Stanley.

The Pharisees were the sign seekers and fit the charismatics ideology .

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

They made Jesus into a circus seal and made it a habit of making the word of God with out effect by these oral tradition as sign .

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

They are one that Christ called a evil generation that sought after a sign and wonders gospel as in natural man that walks by sight and not by a faith that alone comes from hearing God.They put on a good showing .So if you enjoy dramatic shows rather then the preaching of the gospel they would be the group,

I would chose John before Peter the denier and liar. You call it character when he rebuked the Lord. The scripture call it blasphemy, the work of the antichrists. Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus .But today he would not be forgiven the blasphemy it would be against the Holy Spirit not seen.

Peter would be a good candidate for the Catholics rebuking the lord by the use of another Christ, the Pope ,or what the Bible calls a daysman as another gospel is their foundation for making the word of God without effect.

Peter's rebuke was based on someone would betray God. Peter believed he would never do such a thing. Even though he did deny Christ, he did not betray and sell out Christ for a profit. So, I doubt that it actually falls anywhere near Blasphemy. And since the Holy Spirit is the power source of God (Jesus in Matthew 12 said He cast out demons by the Spirit of God and then explained the personal Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit), and to commit Blasphemy is by equaling the Power of God (Holy Spirit) to Satan's power (the Pharisees claimed Jesus cast out demons by Satan). So, Peter was nowhere near committing any form of blasphemy!!
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,076
83
48
#73
As a small town congregation of around 200 members, we saw the normal (what I call normal) miracles take place. There were a couple cases of people being diagnosed with cancer and being prepped for chemo, that after being prayed for were cancer free. The person was allowed to have before/after x-ray images, and you could see where there was something on one and it was gone on the other. We never had the crippled or wheel chair get up an walk, but we also did not have anyone in that condition. There were some other situations that did happen, but it's an argument of whether you see it as a miracle or accept it medically as a fluke. But there was no shortage of people who did/still walk in faith and believe the impossible is possible to this very day.
Hi obedienttogod,
Many cancers often goes into remission, even without chemo or drugs.
Nevertheless, let's assume that these two cases of cancer you mention were miracles; would there then not have been many more of these miracles, and even greater miracles, as they who believe on Christ will do according to His Word?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
9,698
1,344
113
#74
We have a more knowledgeable culture today science wise. God has blessed us with medicine, etc.,
Christian Doctors have put together protocols for discerning genuine healing.
Others have followed up with those who claimed to healed in Pentecostal Services, only to find the condition was still there.
Pentecostals make excuses like they lost their healing. Where does it say anyone healed by Jesus lost their healing?

Mormonism for example when it first got started had a lot of speaking in tongues.
Pentecostal services I have visited with friends claims that they heard Hebrew being spoken.
My first language was Hebrew, So I would take them to my house and put on a Hebrew movie and not tell them it is Hebrew.
They would then say that they do not recognize the language being spoken, could you put on a movie in English?
I would explain they just heard real Hebrew.
I once read my shopping list off in Hebrew at a pentecostal church and was surprised by the interpretation related to supporting their missionaries since it was a missionary awareness week.
Rarely, an interpretation is given that matches the length of the tongue, language message given.
Friends who speaks other languages have visited pentecostal churches through the years saying something in their langue.
And, never has anyone gotten the interpretation correct.
Wisdom dictates for one to be suspicious of claims that when tested do not hold true.
Language experts have never identified anything that even resembles a language in those meetings.
Research where a message in a language is played for someone have they ever from speaking in the spirit as they claim have even come
close to getting the correct understanding of the that language.
You would think a God who can make an animal speak if giving an interpretation would be able to get the true meaning of tongue correct.
This all tells me that much of what I have seen in pentecostal circles is not genuine from God or from the Holy Spirit.

It is not a question of unbelief on my part, just testing to see if it is really true.


Foolishness of men is not any evidence that giftings of Holy Spirit, or "touches" of His presence on our bodies are not real.

You just need one to "learn".

Spirit bypasses the human nature because God is Spirit. Supernatural. Trouble with America is all the horror movies about demons. You know....those evil spirits that Jesus overcame. And left us to clean up the mess.

Too many afraid to enter the battle.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,066
824
113
#75
Peter's rebuke was based on someone would betray God. Peter believed he would never do such a thing. Even though he did deny Christ, he did not betray and sell out Christ for a profit. So, I doubt that it actually falls anywhere near Blasphemy. And since the Holy Spirit is the power source of God (Jesus in Matthew 12 said He cast out demons by the Spirit of God and then explained the personal Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit), and to commit Blasphemy is by equaling the Power of God (Holy Spirit) to Satan's power (the Pharisees claimed Jesus cast out demons by Satan). So, Peter was nowhere near committing any form of blasphemy!!
Peter did such a thing whether he believed he would or not has no bearing on the outcome.

Blasphemy which is likened to have another god before one God and violate the first commandment is to attribute the works of God as the "things of God", to men as the things of men like Peter who was influenced by the god of this world .Therefore putting Satan as a lying spirit before the word of God .Attempting to make the works of God the gospel to no effect is blasphemy .

Again Peter was forgiven because it was against the things of men seen the son of man Jesus .Today it would not be forgivable. Saying the things of God and the things of men are the same offended God .

Note … Bolded in red in the things of God .and purple those of men

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men Mathew 16:22-23

Matthew 12:31-32 King James Version (KJV)

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,573
4,389
113
#76
Blasphemy which is likened to have another god before one God and violate the first commandment is to attribute the works of God as the "things of God", to men as the things of men
Where in Scripture is all this stated? Nowhere that I can find.

like Peter who was influenced by the god of this world .Therefore putting Satan as a lying spirit before the word of God .Attempting to make the works of God the gospel to no effect is blasphemy .
It appears to me that you have made up your own definition for your ongoing argument against the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
39,562
11,733
113
#77
There is no such thing as being "slain in the Spirit".
Only the sound of that word, SLAIN, should be enough to convince you that it is wrong.
It is blasphemy.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 100% agree......it is a farce
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
39,562
11,733
113
#78
The live-action roleplay is strong in charismatic churches. Its ridicilous.

I know of one case where the lady was faking the funk as usual, and someone DIDNT catch her, and she got hurt, tried to get money for surgery from the church and aint got none. Hilarious. Unfortunately for her, the healing prayers didnt work either.

Do I feel bad about it? Not at all, im glad its being exposed for the fraud it is. I advice everyone not to catch these liars.

This one is SPREADING like wildfire, destroying the entire continent of Africa almost. These charlatans like Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, you name it have been exposed over and over again, and poor desperate people still wait in line to be healed and have their money taken. The peer pressure is strong.
The lack of teaching/preaching/doctrine in these churches also equals to LOTS of worldliness and wickedness.

This fits in well with the coming antichrist agenda with its lack of biblical authority, liberalism and 'false signs and wonders' that we were warned of in the last days.

Winner, winner chicken dinner....this ^^^^^^^^ 100% agree.......a farce.....
 

TheLearner

Active member
Jan 14, 2019
935
231
43
#79
There's just one massive problem with this analogy: the Pharisees rejected Jesus' divinity; for all their excesses, the charismatics embrace it.
Where The Pharisees ever presented with his godhood?
 

TheLearner

Active member
Jan 14, 2019
935
231
43
#80
I recognize your perspective as an excuse for why people today are not doing the miracles and even greater miracles that Christ did, which Jesus said those who believe on Him would do.
You either believe the scripture and recognize yourself not fully believing on Christ, or you make an excuse for the Word and deceive yourself into thinking you do fully believe on Christ.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
John 14 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now; let us leave.

From the context, Jesus gave that promise to the disciples, not to all Christians in the future.