Falling back slain in the spirit?

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TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#82
Hi obedienttogod,
Many cancers often goes into remission, even without chemo or drugs.
Nevertheless, let's assume that these two cases of cancer you mention were miracles; would there then not have been many more of these miracles, and even greater miracles, as they who believe on Christ will do according to His Word?
Read the proof text in context, it only applies in context to the 12 disciples, not every christian in every age.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#83
Foolishness of men is not any evidence that giftings of Holy Spirit, or "touches" of His presence on our bodies are not real.

You just need one to "learn".

Spirit bypasses the human nature because God is Spirit. Supernatural. Trouble with America is all the horror movies about demons. You know....those evil spirits that Jesus overcame. And left us to clean up the mess.

Too many afraid to enter the battle.
Funny a Christian Scientist use the same odd form of logic, claims the other day. Do you believe demons can heal?
CS teach a non-biblical form of healing.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#84
glossolalia language research
11-25-16, 01:00 PM
Basically, get a copy of scripture in a language that is not likely to be known in your area. Play it for all those who claim the gift of interpretation. You will not find a single person who gets the interpretation correct. This is a linguistic fact.

"In almost all instances, linguists are confident that the samples of T-speech represent no known natural language and in fact no language that was ever spoken or ever will be spoken by human beings as their native tongue. The phonological structure is untypical of natural languages. Some samples of T-speech, however, are more complex and cannot be clearly distinguished from a natural language on these grounds.15" age 372
“Glossolalia: Analyses of Selected Aspects of Phonology and Morphology,” M.A. thesis, University of Texas, 1967, p. 95" (Linguistic and Sociological Analyses of Modern Tongues-Speaking: Their Contributions and Limitations

by Vern S. Poythress

[Published in the Westminster Theological Journal 42/2 (1980) ***-388. Reprinted in Speaking in Tongues: A Guide to Research on Glossolalia. Watson E. Mills. Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1986. Pp. 469-489.)


Just google: Glossolalia in Contemporary Linguistic Study or google Samarin, Tongues

The highly respected 1972 study of John P. Kildahl (The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues) concludes that "from a linguistic point of view, religiously inspired glossolalic utterances have the same general characteristics as those that are not religiously inspired." In fact, glossolalia is a "human phenomenon, not limited to Christianity nor even to religious behavior." (Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements by Spittler, P. 340).

Experts in the field of linguistics have diligently studied the phenomenon of glossolalia over a period of many years. One of the early investigations was made in the early 1960's by Eugene A. Nida. He provided a detailed list of reasons why glossolalia cannot be human language. Another early study, that of W.A. Wolfram in the year 1966, also concluded that glossolalia lacks the basic elements of human language as a system of coherent communication.

In a massive study of glossolalia from a linguistic perspective by Professor William J. Samarin of the University of Toronto's Department of Linguistics published after more than a decade of careful research, he rejected the view that glossolalia is xenoglossia, i.e. some foreign language that could be understood by another person who knew that language. Samarin concluded that glossolalia is a "pseudo-language." He defined glossolalia as "unintelligible babbling speech that exhibits superficial phonological similarity to language, without having consistent syntagmatic structure and that is not systematically derived from or related to known language." (William J. Samarin, "Variation and Variables in Religious Glossolalia," Language in Society, ed. Dell Haymes, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1972 pgs. 121-130)

Felicitas D. Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, engaged in a study of various English - Spanish - and Mayan-speaking Pentecostal communities in the United States and Mexico. She compared tape recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan as well. She published her results in 1972 in an extensive monograph (Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia by Felecitas D. Goodman, University of Chicago Press, 1972).

Goodman concludes that "when all features of glossolalia were taken into consideration--that is, the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and its suprasegmental elements (namely, rhythm, accent, and especially overall intonation)-- she concluded that there is no distinction in glossolalia between Christians and the followers of non-Christian (pagan) religions. The "association between trance and glossolalia is now accepted by many researchers as a correct assumption," writes Goodman in the prestigious Encyclopedia of Religion (1987).

Goodman also concludes that glossolalia "is, actually, a learned behavior, learned either unawarely or, sometimes consciously." Others have previously pointed out that direct instruction is given on how to "speak in tongues," ie. how to engage in glossolalia.

In fact, it has been found that the "speaking in tongues" practiced in Christian churches and by individual Christians is identical to the chanting language of those who practice voodoo on the darkest continents of this world.

Let us briefly examine the results of eight linguists:

Eugene A. Nida, Secretary of Translations for the American Bible Society and world renowned expert in linguistics, concluded from his studies that the phonemic strata indicates that the phonomes of glossolalic utterances are closely associated with the language background of the speaker's native language.7

Felicitas D. Goodman made phonetic analysis of glossolalia from recordings she taped for her Master's Degree in Mexico and different sections of the United States. She concludes that the glossolalia she analyzed was not productive and noncommunicative.8

James Jaquith from Washington University in his research among English speaking tongue-speakers concludes that "There is no evidence that these glossolalic utterances have been generated by constituent subcodes of any natural language other than English."9

Ernest Bryant and Daniel O'Connell of St. Louis University studied nine tapes of glossolalia taken from among their respondents. The results of their studies proved that "all glossolalic phonemes are within the normal phonemic repertoire of the native speaker of English."10 He says, "If a foreign language system were used a much greater divergence of phonemes would be expected, but the opposite is the case."

Dr. Donald Larson of Bethel College in St. Paul, Minnesota, began analyzing glossolalic samples in Toronto, Canada, in 1957. Since then he has analyzed many samples and observed glossolalic behavior in different parts of the world. His research also concludes that the phonological features of the native speaker's language carried over into his glossolalia experience.11

In a letter to Dr, William Welmers of U.C.L.A., I asked him, "In your studies of modern glossolalia have you detected any known language?" His reply was, "In short, absolutely not." He goes on to say that "Glossolalic utterances are consistently in important respects unlike human languages. They are characterized by a great deal of recurrences of closely similar sequences of syllables and usually employ a restricted number of different sounds." Dr. Welmers said that the same thing is true of hundreds of other utterances studied by Christian linguistics of his acquaintance.12

Dr. Samarin, by far the most thorough, says, "There is no mystery about glossolalia. Tape recorded samples are easy to obtain and to analyze. They always turn out to be the same things: strings of syllables made up of sounds taken from among all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but which nevertheless emerge as word-like or sentence-like units.13

F. Goodman, "Phonetic Analysis of Glossolalia in Four Cultural Settings," Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion (1969), Pages 227 to 239.
F. Goodman, "Speaking in Tongues. A Cross-Cultural Study of Glossolalia," University of Chicago Press, (1972).
W. Samarin, "Tongues of Men and Angels. The Religious Language of Pentecostalism," Macmillan (1972).
W. Samarin, "Variation and Variables in Religious Glossolalia," Language in Society, (1972), 1:121-130.
W. Samarin, "Glossolalia as Regressive Speech," Language and Speech (1973), 16:77-89.
W. Samarin, "Review of Goodman (1972)," Language (1974), 5:207-213.
D. J. Janes, "Glossolalia: The Gift of Gibberish," available at the Institute for First Amendment Studies
J.G. Melton, Ed., "The Encyclopedia of American Religions," Volume 1, Triumph Books, Tarrytown, NY, (1991), Page 41 to 47.
Jussi Karlgren, "Speaking in tongues," The Linguist List, #6.385. A compilation of responses by linguists to a question on the structure of Glossolalia.
Jeff Wehr, "Speaking in Tongues," Our Firm Foundation, Vol. 11, #11, 1996-NOV-11.
Steve Paulson, "Divining the Brain," Templeton-Cambridge Journalism, 2006-SEP-20,
Andrew Newberg, Nancy Wintering, Donna Morgan, and Mark Waldman, "The Measurement of Regional Cerebral Blood Flow During Glossolalia: a Preliminary SPECT Study." Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging for 2006-NOV. This is the official publication of the International Society for Neuroimaging in Psychiatry.
"Language Center of the Brain Is Not Under the Control of Subjects Who 'Speak in Tongues'," University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, 2006-OCT-30,
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#85
Kildahl (1975) points out that:

"There are no reported instances of a glossolalist speaking a language which was then literally translated by an expert in that language…"

Malony & Lovekin (1985:5) conclude:

"Although tongue speakers often claim that their new language is French or Italian or Spanish, and so on – languages they never knew before – scientific studies to date have not confirmed their claims."

T. H. Spoerril has described this speech as "unsemantical conglomerations of sounds" and "as sound externalized without sense which sometimes produces the impression of coherent speech." The terms "unintelligible," "meaningless," and "jibberish" have also been applied to the entities representing this type of speech.
Boisen, A. T. Religion in Crisis and Custom: A sociological and Psychological study. New York, Harper, 1955.

On Youtube: Creationist Study, Disproves Glossolalia As Language.

Why did Jesus forbid prayer with babbling/long repetitions if he was going to give it as a special gift?

“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition (battalogeó/battalogesete) as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.” (Mat 6:7)

If modern tongues are the same as those in Acts, why is there no verifiable xenoglossy?

“devout men from every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5) around the first tongue speakers clearly stated “we hear them in our own tongues” (Acts 2:11).

If glossolalia is a real language, why are different interpretations given for the same phrase?

“Interpretations do in fact take place, but they are usually pious exhortations in the language of the group where the glossic utterances are made. They are often strikingly longer or shorter than the glossic utterance.” (1)

“I have heard the same glossolalic phrases repeated by the same glossolalist in different services, but each time the identical glossolalic utterances are given a different translation.“ (4)

“the interpreters gave different meanings to identical words in the same set of words. When confronted with this inconsistency, the interpreters simply said, ‘God gave different interpretations.'” (14, 23)

Why is Priming the Pump needed in Pentecostal training? I once visited Happy Church in Denver, CO. They hearded non-tongue speakers into a room and said, repeat after me. I asked what this this all about and they called it priming the pump.
I have met many people who have had the same thing happen to them in different churches in different cities.

"
A variety of linguistic analyses of glossolalia (the religious phenomenon of “speaking in tongues”) were performed to determine both the extent to which glossolalia is language-like and the extent to which it is linguistically dependent upon the glossolalist's native language. The results indicate the glossolalia is, in more ways than not, both language-like and unlike the speaker's native language. These results are contrary both to earlier studies of glossolalia and to the predictions of current psycholinguistic theory. The implication is that glossolalia manifests a unique sort of speech encoding which cannot now be, but must eventually be, accounted for by psycholinguistic theory."
(A linguistic analysis of glossolalia: Evidence of unique psycholinguistic processing
Michael T. Motley)


1 Timothy 6:20,

“O Timothy, keep that which is committed to your trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings…”

1 Corinthians 14:19-20 “Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. 20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.”

google Glossolalia Project for more research.

Glossolalia and Linguistic Alterity: The Ontology of Ineffable Speech
Evandro Bonfim

A linguistic analysis of a corpus of glossolalia
Speer, Blanche Corder, 1922-


Journal of Contemporary Religion, Vol. 19, No. 2, 2004 pp. 171–184
Glossolalia and Altered States of Consciousnessin two New Zealand Religious Movements

"Abstract
In nine tape-recorded samples of glossolalia, there is a remarkably low correlation with English samples from the same Ss, ascribable primarily to variation in vowel frequency. Nonetheless, all glossolalic phonemes are within the normal phonemic repertoire of native speakers of English. There is a divergence of syllables per pause rates between glossolalia and English. Optional articulatory choices characteristic of glossolalic samples can evidently be studied by means of accepted scientific procedures independently of theological or religious explication."(A phonemic analysis of nine samples of glossolalic speech
Ernest BryantDaniel O’Connell)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#86
Funny a Christian Scientist use the same odd form of logic, claims the other day. Do you believe demons can heal?
CS teach a non-biblical form of healing.
No, not at all. However, I do believe some illnesses could be demonic. Some say all but the jury is out yet for me. So anyway, casting a demon off of one could "heal".

I say this because of a testimony by a minister. You would have to "see" the demon to cast it off or out.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#87
Nobody reads long posts like that learner. I used to do that too. lol
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#88
To me the question is not, does God work miracles today.
It is not are Spiritual gifts for today.

The question is, Is what we are seeing genuine?

From what I have witnessed in Pentecostal Churches, Cults, World Religions that passes off as speaking other human languages by the power of God is not of God, but is just emotionalism and imitation.

We are given the best understanding of what tongues, other languages really is in Acts 2 and I Cor 12-14

Acts 2
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” 12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

I cor 14
7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.

Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#89
No, not at all. However, I do believe some illnesses could be demonic. Some say all but the jury is out yet for me. So anyway, casting a demon off of one could "heal".

I say this because of a testimony by a minister. You would have to "see" the demon to cast it off or out.
Where in the Gospels did anyone ever see demons to cast them out?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#90
Nobody reads long posts like that learner. I used to do that too. lol

I forgot that I am a speed reader.

In short, the last two long posts documents studies that have been done on tongues by language experts.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#91
Where The Pharisees ever presented with his godhood?
Yes, indeed they were......the Genesis account of creation and the plural use of LIVES in Hebrew (3 or more), the account of Abraham and the three that came to him, the names of JESUS in the O.T. -->I AM......and the words of JESUS himself...I and my Father are ONE, If you have seen me you have seen the Father, Before Abraham was I AM........the entire O.T. pointed to JESUS, his divinity his mission....He said, "Search the scriptures, for they are they which testify of men." <--when he said this the N.T. had not even been written.

Even though it was in pictures, types and shadows it could be seen, dug out and or understood on some level IMV.....
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#92
Where in Scripture is all this stated? Nowhere that I can find.
Throughout scripture . Where is the princible not used is a better question ?

The same faithless Jews that refused to believe the word of God as a sign against them misunderstood the principle of blasphemy which does violate the first commandment . Peter choosing to believe the father of lies as the god of this world did put gods before the faith of God not seen in Mathew 16:22-23

The Jews that had no understanding that blasphemy was forgivable in respect to the things seen... replied below .

John 10:33The Jews answered him, “We don’t stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, make yourself God.

Those fathers were forgiven just as Peter .But once the Son of man Jesus left promising to never come again in the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:16) then blasphemy against the Holy Spirit not seen is not forgivable .

“You shall have no other gods before me.“You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:Exodus 20: 3-4

This would include Satan the god of this world who Peter put first. We are not to have any image of anything that is in the heavens above, this include man. The holy unseen place of God is reserved for our invsiable God .

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Roman 1:20-23

If Peter the liar and denier stood in the Holy Place of God as the abomination of desecration how would that not violate the first commandment as blasphemy? If that does not .What does constitute violating the first commandment as blasphemy ?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#94
Or do you know anyone who visits grave yards today and gives life to the dead ?
or do you know of anyone in the Bible who fell backward and it was a blessing not a judgement ?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#95
Or do you know anyone who visits grave yards today and gives life to the dead ?
Do you know anyone with the gift of interpretation going to the United Nations to interpret?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#96
No, not at all. However, I do believe some illnesses could be demonic. Some say all but the jury is out yet for me. So anyway, casting a demon off of one could "heal".

I say this because of a testimony by a minister. You would have to "see" the demon to cast it off or out.
Besides the case of Job, can you think of any other illnesses that be caused by the demonic?
 

louis

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2017
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#98
Read the proof text in context, it only applies in context to the 12 disciples, not every christian in every age.
What about Paul where the viper bit him, and the locals were expecting him to keel over and die, but he didn't? Context.

Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#99
What about Paul where the viper bit him, and the locals were expecting him to keel over and die, but he didn't? Context.

Acts 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
Paul was an Apostle, just like the others who the promise was given.