First Word of Jesus was repent

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

While its true there are possible constructions for each of those that render them more or less obvious in their declaration of Jesus as God the most probable based on grammatical considerations is almost always the trinitarian understanding. The rendering I chose was consistently the NASB because I believe that is the most consistent with issues of grammar and appeals to theology least often as a driving force of its translations.

The verse from 1 Corinthians is actually one of the most decidedly trinitarian of the entire group, as the rest can all be understood to hold Jesus as the Father. Yet Paul attributes the very same characteristics to both the one God and the one Lord, and these are characteristics of God. It indicates in one fell swoop the dual considerations of the deity of Jesus and the distinctness of Jesus from the Father.

Again with Peter the translation was chosen on the strength of grammatical argument not on the theology it expresses. If you have to choose a specific translation for a theological point then you are dictating what the text must read rather than accepting what it does.

The choice of the ESV for Jude was a deliberate one but the issue is not one of translation but manuscript selection. The ESV relies primarily on older manuscripts, and those older manuscripts heavily favor Iesous rather than kyrios in their rendering of Jude 1:5. The rendering of kyrios is almost exclusively a phenomena of late manuscripts. So this isn't so much a matter of how to translate a given word but which manuscripts are given preference in the art of translation rendering your objection moot.

Trinitarians prior to the post-biblical development of the doctrine of the Trinity should at least raise eyebrows.

My objection is to any translation or interpretation of scripture which contradicts or in any way opposes the unitarian faith of Jesus.

Jesus has a God. His God is the Father, not the Trinity.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

The trinitarian antidote to my objection, as summed up in one sentence by Professor H.R. Mackintosh.

”We are called not to believe like him, but to believe in him.”

(Doctrine of the Person of Jesus Christ, p. 196)

My response to Dr. Mackintosh: We are called to listen to him and believe like him, which is believing in him.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Thinking about 1 Corinthians 8:6 and the question of whether Paul is expressing a belief in Jesus’ God and in Jesus or belief in the Trinity.

”yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for him;”

(1 Corinthians 8:6)

All that Paul has to say about God in this verse he says in this segment. He’s not speaking about Jesus or the Trinity here.

In 1 Corinthians 8:4 Paul said there is no God but one. In verse 6 he identifies who the one God is - the Father. That’s the unitarian faith of Jesus, Paul and Christians expressed in scripture.

In 1 Corinthians 8:5 Paul said there are many gods. While acknowledging the many gods/idols of paganism, Paul says - yet for us [Christians] there is only one, the Father.

Christianity - one God. The Father.

Paganism - many gods. Idols.

Having affirmed the Christian God and rejecting the gods/idols of the pagans, he turns to another subject.

Continuing in 1 Corinthians 8:6,

”and only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we exist through him.”

Paul is not speaking about the one God here, nor is he speaking about the Trinity in this segment. He is speaking about Jesus.

In 1 Corinthians 8:5 Paul said there are many lords. While acknowledging the many lords of the pagan world, Paul says - yet for us [Christians] there is only one lord, the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

Paul says nothing at all about the Holy Spirit anywhere in this verse. He isn’t speaking about the Trinity in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Paul is speaking in 1 Corinthians 8:6 about two persons: the one God (the Father) and the one Lord (Jesus Christ). That’s Christian belief (God and his Messiah) set in opposition to pagan belief (many gods/idols and many lords.)

Bbrdrd · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

While you spin that one you've missed several key details.

First and foremost, if "one God" excludes Jesus from godship then "one Lord" excludes the Father from lordship. Yet I would be very surprised if you taught that the Father was excluded from lordship.

Second, the appendage afterwards in the Greek is actually stronger for Jesus' position than for God's. The statements are identical only separated by a preposition, ex for the Father and di for Jesus. The latter preposition has far more force than the former attributing the creative act and the sustaining act far more strongly with Jesus than with the Father.

The trinitarian lens is the one that makes the most sense of this verse as there is a clear distinction between the Father and Jesus in the passage, yet both are attributed with creating and sustaining life which are attributes of God.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Bbrdrd said:

Certainly not. The Father is the Lord God. Jesus is the Lord Christ.

Who is God?

Jesus is indispensably involved in his God’s creative activity.

The trinitarian lens doesn’t see the Holy Spirit discussed in this verse and rejects the unitarian lens of Jesus and Paul.

Bbrdrd · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

How can "one God" in 8:6 be held to be exclusive, but "one Lord" not be seen in the same exclusive light?

In this case, context should have been clear I was referring to the Father. Both are God, but given the circle of 8:6 it is appropriate to designate the Father "God" for discussion purposes.

Neither Jesus nor Paul were unitarians, and to assert as such when we are discussing a passage of Paul's is to beg the question. Jesus made plenty of statements claiming deity and the messianic prophecies make it clear that the Messiah was to be God Himself. Just a few examples:
The 7 "I am"s of John ( I Am the Bread of Life. I Am the Light of the World. I Am the door or gate. I Am the Good Shepherd. I Am the resurrection, and the life. I Am the way, the truth, and the life. I Am the true vine.)
Other instances of Jesus declaring "I am" including but not limited to John 8:58 and Matthew 14:27
Jesus referring to prophets as his prophets and speaking as the master of Israel in Matthew 23
Prophecies include Ezekiel 34, Isaiah 9:6, Jeremiah 31

Now, I expect you to have twists of such statements but the reality is you're making the Bible into something other than what it is. The cross is without power if Jesus was simply a very good rabbi and not God Himself.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Bbrdrd said:

Both are exclusive.

So is Paul. The one God of Paul (and Jesus) is the Father.

Paul designates only one person “God” in his discussion.

Who and how many persons is Jesus’ God?

Will you pit Jesus and Paul against one another?

If someone wanted to say their God is only one person, how would they express it?

If someone wanted to say their God is three persons, how would they express it?

If God wanted people living in biblical times to believe he is only one person, how would he express it?

If God wanted people living in biblical times to believe he is three persons, how would he express it?

There is no question about the God of Jesus being only one person, the Father. By definition, Jesus is a unitarian.

Ego eimi = I am. His claim is to be the Messiah, not the one God, nor the Triune God.

I’ll reiterate my position: There are no passages of scripture which contradict or in any way oppose Jesus’ unitarian view.

You can persuade me to change my position. All you have to do is demonstrate from scripture that the God of Jesus is three persons, the Trinity.

The cross is not without power. Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. That is what John wanted to persuade his readers to believe. I do.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

The one, only and unique God (Matt. 23:9; Rom. 3:30; 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Gal. 3:20; 1 Tim. 2:5; Jas. 2:19) = The God of the fathers (Acts 3:13; 5:30; 22:14) = The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:13; 7:32; cf. Matt. 22:32; Mk. 12:26; Lk. 20:37) = the God of Israel (Matt. 15:31; Lk. 1:68; Acts 13:17) = The God of Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3).

That is the God whom Jesus called “my God and your God”.

Nothing written in scripture contradicts or opposes the unitarian view of Jesus Christ.

Dino246 · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

At least Mackintosh's statement is essentially straight from Scripture...

John 6:28-29 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Yours is not.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

Still to this day, Professor Mackintosh whispers softly in our ears, “We are called not to believe like him, but to believe in him.”

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Dino246 said:

Then you should believe him. Don’t believe like Jesus believed, just believe in Jesus.

Who is God? The one who sent Jesus.

I believe in the one he has sent.

Bbrdrd · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

Both are exclusive...so the Father is not Lord?

Paul designates in this verse one with the appelation of God in reference to the label of pagan gods, yes. Though it's part of a couplet reminiscent of Hebrew parallelism. In other places he speaks directly on the deity of Christ.

I don't pit them against each other, they both persistently presented Jesus as God while also maintaining that He is distinct from the Father.

The "I am" statements go well beyond presenting a human messiah. Each of them links Jesus with one of the aspects of deity from the sephardim. The "good shepherd" especially links Jesus with the OT presentation of God as Israel's shepherd and the prophecy found in Ezekiel 34 that God himself would seek the lost and redeem them.

Understanding God as a "person" at all is problematic as the eternal attributes of God cannot be contained in the definition of personhood.

It's easy to say there are no passages that contradict you when you re-interpret and re-translate ones that clearly contradict you. Your theology requires you ignore the plain constructs of the Greek and Hebrew and torture passages into highly unlikely contortions so that it can be maintained. The entire gospel of John from its presentation of Jesus as the Logos of God to its closing declarations from Thomas, John, and Peter centers on Jesus being God in the flesh.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Bbrdrd said:

The Father is the Lord God.

Paul has no God besides the one Jesus has.

The God of Jesus is the Father. The God of Paul, you assert, is the Trinity.

Jesus does what he sees his God doing.

It’s problematic for you.

I said there are no passages that contradict Jesus‘ belief (and the belief of believers living in biblical times) that God is one person, the Father.

John himself tells us precisely why he wrote his Gospel (see John 20:31).

Bbrdrd · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

So...when Paul says "one Lord" and it refers to Jesus Christ, it's not saying there is exclusively one Lord who is Jesus Christ?

I agree Paul and Jesus are in harmony about who God is, and both of them agree that God became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ.

When it comes to the "personhood" of God it is problematic in its enirety. He is both present and omnipresent so He cannot exist in the traditional manner we think of a person existing within set boundaries. His infinity makes "person" nothing more than an analogous construct when discussing His existence.

There are passages that demonstrate Jesus believed Himself to be God in the flesh, passages that attribute Godhood to Jesus through narration, passages where others express their belief in Jesus' Godhood. What do you think the charge was for Jesus' crucifixion?

I agree, John tells us his purpose there. And if you understood the fullness of the messianic promises you would recognize the Deity of Christ. After all "I will feed them in good pasture, and the lofty mountains of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in a good grazing land; they will feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15I will tend My flock and make them lie down, declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 34:14-15) links directly not only with the promise of Messiah but with one of Jesus' discussions of who He is when He declared "I am the good shepherd."

Your assertion is flatly contradicted many times over in the Bible but you do not break your doctrine over Scripture but instead try to bend Scripture to fit your doctrine.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Bbrdrd said:

Mattathias said:

The jugular.

Bbrdrd · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

Repeating your assertion does no such thing, especially as you haven't addressed any of my points.

It really is like playing chess with a pigeon.

Mattathias · Jul 20, 2020

Bbrdrd said:

I told you how I could be persuaded.

A quick review of our conversation tells a different story.

LOL

Among other things, I’m a retired semi-professional chess player.

If you hope to persuade someone, insulting them is the wrong way to go about it.

Bbrdrd · Jul 20, 2020

Mattathias said:

Considering you admitted you choose translations based on whether they support or go against your doctrine, I find your claim about the possibility of persuasion suspect.

My concern in opposing you is not to persuade you. It is enough to simply oppose your false doctrine. Though I do suppose my expression of exasperation was uncalled for.

Blik · Jul 21, 2020

We all agree that scripture is to be believed. In scripture we are told that God is not a human. We can see as we read that his thoughts are not our thoughts, and we experience am experience that can only be described as born again in order to comprehend God.

Yet, I see many trying to put the words of God in human form. That works to a certain extent, we are made in His image. But there is a limit. In the human world individuals are completely separate from each other, but they are joined into families. God tells us that He is different, that he is one and at the same time he acts as separate entities. That is what the word says, why not simply accept it and not try to make him conform to human ways?

Mattathias · Jul 21, 2020

Bbrdrd said:

I’ve stated numerous times my belief that there are no passages of scripture which contradict or in any way oppose what Jesus himself believes about the one God.

If any translation contradicts or in any way opposes what Jesus himself believes in the rendering of a passage of scripture then my position is that Jesus is right and the rendering which opposes or contradicts him is wrong.

Further, if any interpretation of scripture contradicts or in any way opposes what Jesus himself believes then my position is that Jesus is right and the interpretation which opposes or contradicts him is wrong.

I told you the truth. If you (or anyone else) can do what I asked -

Mattathias said:

- you will see that it is so.

If you’re truly not trying to persuade me then you really shouldn’t feel exasperated

It’s Jesus’ view of who the one God is that you‘re labeling false doctrine.

I believe your exasperation is real. You just chose the wrong way to express it to me.

First Word of Jesus was repent

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