Following Paul To Follow Christ

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
34,982
12,545
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#21
Jesus Christ, Yeshua, in Matthew, invited me and some others to learn directly from Him because, as He graciously explained, "My yoke is easy, my burden is light."
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,299
807
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#22
Jesus Christ, Yeshua, in Matthew, invited me and some others to learn directly from Him because, as He graciously explained, "My yoke is easy, my burden is light."

Of course I have read in the Epistles almost daily for many decades, but in fulfilling the prophecy, I learn first from God, That being Yeshua...

It would be benefisial to all to accept His invitation to be your private Tutor, after all He is the Teacher.
Right, He is the eternal teacher. When He was on earth He gave us eternal principles, expounded the law of Moses and taught what would be necessary for salvation through this same law. For example: "Be perfect ". Since it is impossible for a human being to become perfect, the Lord had to die on the cross. After His resurrection He continued teaching His disciples and some of His new teachings differ from what He said before the Calvary event.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,129
4,522
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#23
Our Father knows our frame….. When He declares we are to be perfect, it is a promise, for He has begun this work in us, and on His eternal day, and on that day only, He will complete it, for you and for me. While we await our time to enter through the Gate into the Kingdom, we are being perfected, and not only that, we are seen as perfect because of Jesus in each of us. No more is the guilt of our transgressions imputed against us…...
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,299
807
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#24
Our Father knows our frame….. When He declares we are to be perfect, it is a promise, for He has begun this work in us, and on His eternal day, and on that day only, He will complete it, for you and for me. While we await our time to enter through the Gate into the Kingdom, we are being perfected, and not only that, we are seen as perfect because of Jesus in each of us. No more is the guilt of our transgressions imputed against us…...
Do you offer sacrifices according to the law of Moses?
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,299
807
113
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#25
Our Father knows our frame….. When He declares we are to be perfect, it is a promise, for He has begun this work in us, and on His eternal day, and on that day only, He will complete it, for you and for me. While we await our time to enter through the Gate into the Kingdom, we are being perfected, and not only that, we are seen as perfect because of Jesus in each of us. No more is the guilt of our transgressions imputed against us…...
The Lord Jesus didn't say the Jews would be made perfect, He just said "Be perfect!"; this is imperative mode.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,129
4,522
113
#26
Do you offer sacrifices according to the law of Moses?
All who have not taken up Christ's invitation to learn from Him directly have always come to me with this ridiculous question or one very similar.

You question is disigned to insult rather tan to learn. You know there is no scacrivice we may offer our Father other than thanksgiving, NO, you probably do not.

But you do know there is no scrifice for our sin other than Jesus Christ. Now if you do not sin, then, you obey the law under grace perfectly and you do not need a scrifice for your sin, but brother, I do and always will.

May God bless you with a loving heart soul and mind to be able to discuss His Word with others.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,299
807
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#27
Marcelo said: Do you offer sacrifices according to the law of Moses?
All who have not taken up Christ's invitation to learn from Him directly have always come to me with this ridiculous question or one very similar.

You question is disigned to insult rather tan to learn. You know there is no scacrivice we may offer our Father other than thanksgiving, NO, you probably do not.

But you do know there is no scrifice for our sin other than Jesus Christ. Now if you do not sin, then, you obey the law under grace perfectly and you do not need a scrifice for your sin, but brother, I do and always will.

May God bless you with a loving heart soul and mind to be able to discuss His Word with others.
My question is not an insult and is not ridiculous.

You say there is no sacrifice we may offer our Father other than thanksgiving, but Jesus told the man cured from leprosy: show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifice prescribed by Moses . Why are you contradicting Jesus?

I'm sorry you took offense in my question rather than using it as an opportunity to prove your point.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,129
4,522
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#28
My question is not an insult and is not ridiculous.

You say there is no sacrifice we may offer our Father other than thanksgiving, but Jesus told the man cured from leprosy: show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifice prescribed by Moses . Why are you contradicting Jesus?

I'm sorry you took offense in my question rather than using it as an opportunity to prove your point.
It seems you do not understand why Jesus said this to theman healed nor why I believe it ridiculous to ask someone who is in Jesus Christ if he offers sacrifices for sin.

Jesus sent the man to make the offering reequired by LAW because He was not yet glorified. I would not consider offering a sa rifice for my sin because there is NO sacrifice since Jesus Christ, Yeshau, and to offer anything now would be blasphemy.

If you do not understand such things why presume to ask such impertinent quesitons? Both seem to be esigned to embarrass or even to accuse.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,299
807
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#29
Jesus sent the man to make the offering reequired by LAW because He was not yet glorified. I would not consider offering a sa rifice for my sin because there is NO sacrifice since Jesus Christ, Yeshau, and to offer anything now would be blasphemy.
Now the Lord Jesus has already been glorified and therefore His teaching about offering sacrifices no longer applies, right?
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
11,245
2,906
113
#31
Do you offer sacrifices according to the law of Moses?[/

each and every time I hear someone express such an un-learned, worldly statement, it truly breaks my heart -
to actually think that someone who Loves their Saviour could possible think that they were/are expected to keep
ALL of the OT Jewish Laws after receiving conversion is just to absurd for words - our Holy Saviour has certainly told
us and meant what He has said in the NT, He actually lists almost ALL of them, what will please Him in our proclaimed
obedience to His explicit instructions, not only by His Words, but also by His called and chosen in how He instructs
them to explain them to us in no un-certain terms - of course, it's up to us whether we choose to obey or NOT...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,129
4,522
113
#32
Now the Lord Jesus has already been glorified and therefore His teaching about offering sacrifices no longer applies, right?
This I have spoken to. Re readmy posts to YOU. I have read yours, but now I must go. Goodmoring from here. May God grant you the wisdom needed to interact with all who love Jesus, Yeshua.
 
Jan 28, 2019
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#33
I have prayerfully considered what to say in this forum along the lines of stating that it is necessary to follow Paul in order to follow the Messiah. The Messiah states plainly that only through Him do we reach our Father, not through any other man nor principality, but through Him.

John 14:6 (NKJV) Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Deifying any other man to follow as an example to live and borderline worship is not of Messiah. We are called to follow Him and Him alone to reach our Father and be saved. And by following Him we abide in Him, and how we abide in Him is listening to His word and living out our lives as He did, fully focusing on what the Father did and said.

John 5:19 (NKJV) Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

So in light of these verses (and others which I would be happy to post if there is interest) I have to peacefully disagree that we are to follow Paul, but rather glean the bits of knowledge and truth he has sprinkled in his letters and see how they point back to the Messiah, and our Father ultimately and walk in our Father’s ways and do what we see Him doing and say what we hear Him saying, not after man, but after the only pure examples we have (the Father, the Son, and the Spirit left to guide/help us)

John 14:26 (NKJV) "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,643
1,216
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#34
So in light of these verses (and others which I would be happy to post if there is interest) I have to peacefully disagree that we are to follow Paul, but rather glean the bits of knowledge and truth he has sprinkled in his letters and see how they point back to the Messiah, and our Father ultimately and walk in our Father’s ways and do what we see Him doing and say what we hear Him saying, not after man, but after the only pure examples we have (the Father, the Son, and the Spirit left to guide/help us)
There was another similarly titled thread that seem to have disappeared. Here is why Paul is especially important to the Church, that now consistently mostly of Gentiles, which I assume you are one too.

To understand why Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, it will help to understand why Moses is the lawgiver, why the entire Law is summed up as the "Law of Moses", even though the Law was given by God.

Even Jesus himself referred to the Law as "The Law of Moses". As he is living under the law, he is also subjected to Moses. (John 5:46, Matthew 19:8, Matthew 23:1, 2, Mark 7:9, 10).

Moses authority has been challenged before by the Jews, who wanted to hear directly from God instead. In the famous story recounted in Numbers 12

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.

Likewise, almost all of us are Gentiles here. We belong to the Church, and in this age of grace, Paul is our apostle, his importance is equivalent to Moses, as the lawgiver to the Jews.

Paul's words are the words of the ascended Lord Jesus to his Church, and we will do well to follow what Paul is saying, as instructed in 1 Corinthians 14:37

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
 
Jan 28, 2019
48
19
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#35
There was another similarly titled thread that seem to have disappeared. Here is why Paul is especially important to the Church, that now consistently mostly of Gentiles, which I assume you are one too.

To understand why Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, it will help to understand why Moses is the lawgiver, why the entire Law is summed up as the "Law of Moses", even though the Law was given by God.

Even Jesus himself referred to the Law as "The Law of Moses". As he is living under the law, he is also subjected to Moses. (John 5:46, Matthew 19:8, Matthew 23:1, 2, Mark 7:9, 10).

Moses authority has been challenged before by the Jews, who wanted to hear directly from God instead. In the famous story recounted in Numbers 12

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.

Likewise, almost all of us are Gentiles here. We belong to the Church, and in this age of grace, Paul is our apostle, his importance is equivalent to Moses, as the lawgiver to the Jews.

Paul's words are the words of the ascended Lord Jesus to his Church, and we will do well to follow what Paul is saying, as instructed in 1 Corinthians 14:37

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Guojing,

I hear your point of view, but if I may i would like to interject what I feel is the main difference between the two. Moses stayed humble, never called himself an apostle or that he held an office of power/superiority and teven truly tried to pass off his mantle whilst Yahweh (God) was speaking to him at the burning bush. He interceded for the people constantly as I’m sure Paul did as well, but the glory and praise was always directed to the Father and not to walk as he walked but rather hear and obey the word of Yahweh given forth, never to follow his own words but those of the Father, much akin to our Messiah always pointing to the Father for parameters on how to be and how to live and that our sustenance comes from above not from the ones next to us. We are to help sharpen one another as iron sharpens iron, but our sustenance and revitalization comes from the three beings that are pure and un-blemished which are the Father, the Son, and the Helper (the spirit). I do think Paul had some things right, but was also a man that struggled with duality of being flesh and spirit in one as he himself claimed to struggle with. Therefore I think some of his writings are to be seen as advice or helpful tools to think upon directed back to Yahshua (Jesus) but not a mantra to live by.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,129
4,522
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#36
To all, words of our Lord, Jesus. "My hseep know my voice." There is no other Good Shepherd, and Christ's sheep are made up of all peoples.

John the Baptist was prophesied to come. The Twelve Apostles are mentioned in Zechariah 3, the men given to Yeshua, the men of renown.

Paul is mentioned nowhere except by Paul it seems. I study the Epistles, and have done so over five decades, and I cannot, no matter how I try see what he teaches as anything other than what Jesus teaches. When he asks an assembly to be imitators of himself, he also says as he imitates Jesus.

He also is adamant that there is only ONE GOSPEL, that of Jesus Christ. So we all have received the same gospel, the Jew first and then the Greek.

Anyone here separating the two flocks is attempting to countermand our Savior's teaching.
 
Jan 28, 2019
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#37
To all, words of our Lord, Jesus. "My hseep know my voice." There is no other Good Shepherd, and Christ's sheep are made up of all peoples.

John the Baptist was prophesied to come. The Twelve Apostles are mentioned in Zechariah 3, the men given to Yeshua, the men of renown.

Paul is mentioned nowhere except by Paul it seems. I study the Epistles, and have done so over five decades, and I cannot, no matter how I try see what he teaches as anything other than what Jesus teaches. When he asks an assembly to be imitators of himself, he also says as he imitates Jesus.

He also is adamant that there is only ONE GOSPEL, that of Jesus Christ. So we all have received the same gospel, the Jew first and then the Greek.

Anyone here separating the two flocks is attempting to countermand our Savior's teaching.
I whole heartedly agree that there is but One God, One Messiah, and the whole of scriptures for all whom wish to join themselves to Yahweh( God’s ) kingdom. There should be no distinction from amongst those whom humble themselves and follow in the ways of our Messiah and Father. Isaiah foretold this in the word that came to him in chapter 56 and it is one of my favorite passages, it exemplifies exactly what Yahshua (Jesus) said were of utmost importance in loving the Almighty and each-other.

Isaiah 56:1-7 (NKJV) 1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation [is] about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed [is] the man [who] does this, And the son of man [who] lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil." 3 Do not let the son of the foreigner Who has joined himself to the LORD Speak, saying, "The LORD has utterly separated me from His people"; Nor let the eunuch say, "Here I am, a dry tree." 4 For thus says the LORD: "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, And choose what pleases Me, And hold fast My covenant, 5 Even to them I will give in My house And within My walls a place and a name Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name That shall not be cut off. 6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants-- Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant-- 7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain, And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [Will be] accepted on My altar; For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
18,129
4,522
113
#38
A more simple comment regarding the OP title is simple.

When you hear (read) Paul, and you do not hear the Good Shepherd, you are not listening to Paul.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,643
1,216
113
#39
Guojing,

I hear your point of view, but if I may i would like to interject what I feel is the main difference between the two. Moses stayed humble, never called himself an apostle or that he held an office of power/superiority and teven truly tried to pass off his mantle whilst Yahweh (God) was speaking to him at the burning bush. He interceded for the people constantly as I’m sure Paul did as well, but the glory and praise was always directed to the Father and not to walk as he walked but rather hear and obey the word of Yahweh given forth, never to follow his own words but those of the Father,
Well, if you read the OT, here are some verses from Deut 4

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

There is no denying that, to all the Jews, Moses is the MAN they follow. Even Jesus himself said several times in the Gospels

"And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, show
thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing THOSE THINGS WHICH MOSES
COMMANDED,
for a testimony unto them" (Mark 1:43,44).

When the Pharisees brought up the question of divorce, He asked them in
reply:
"... WHAT DID MOSES COMMAND YOU?" (Mark 10:3).

Mark 10:3 is remarkable if you think about it. Jesus was God himself, and yet, because he is born under the Law and have to fulfill the entire Law on our behalf, he have to also recognize the special role Moses play, in the dispensation of the Law.

Once you understand the role Moses play for all Jews, including Jesus in the 4 Gospels, is it that really that weird for the Gentile Church to also recognize Paul as our Apostle, in the current dispensation of Grace?
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,299
807
113
69
#40
Marcelo asked JaumeJ: Do you offer sacrifices according to the law of Moses?
each and every time I hear someone express such an un-learned, worldly statement, it truly breaks my heart -to actually think that someone who Loves their Saviour could possible think that they were/are expected to keep ALL of the OT Jewish Laws after receiving conversion is just to absurd for words - our Holy Saviour has certainly told
us and meant what He has said in the NT, He actually lists almost ALL of them, what will please Him in our proclaimed
obedience to His explicit instructions, not only by His Words, but also by His called and chosen in how He instructs
them to explain them to us in no un-certain terms - of course, it's up to us whether we choose to obey or NOT...
This is not a statement, it is a question, and you must read some of the previous posts to see why I am asking it.