forgive us as we forgive others?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
1,262
470
83
#61
Interesting how some bibles say debts and others say trespasses, a couple say sins.

I have thought that a debt is money owed or something like a payment, and trespasses is being somewhere that is prohibited and deemed as trespassing like being on private property etc.

are debts and trespasses sins? If so then why not just say so, why are there different translations.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,406
547
113
#62
Interesting how some bibles say debts and others say trespasses, a couple say sins.

I have thought that a debt is money owed or something like a payment, and trespasses is being somewhere that is prohibited and deemed as trespassing like being on private property etc.

are debts and trespasses sins? If so then why not just say so, why are there different translations.
Trespass
G3900
παράπτωμα
paraptōma
par-ap'-to-mah
From G3895; a side slip (lapse or deviation), that is, (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression: - fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

Debt
G3783
ὀφείλημα
opheilēma
of-i'-lay-mah
From (the alternate of) G3784; something owed, that is, (figuratively) a due.; morally a fault: - debt.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

Similar, but not exactly the same.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,444
998
113
#63
Although I am a member of, and have taught quite a bit in, the Foursquare denomination, my beliefs differ a bit from their stance on some theology; so perhaps I'm better labeled non-denominational.

I believe Baptism is essential. But it is more than, and not limited to, being baptized in water.
It's too long to post here, but from a teaching I'm currently doing on 1Cor 10, we look into Baptism, from both New and Old Testaments, and how is fits into our Journey; as we walk the Way with the Lord toward the "rest of God."
If you've interested, (it's in essay form, not a video), you can view that portion of the Bible Study I've been teaching in our church, here-
1Corinthians 10 Study (part 5) BAPTISM.
I would offer. I think we all can see things somewhat different like fingerprints. God makes men different informing us; what do we have that we have not received? And while dividing His truth. . we would do it in in a living hope not to make the grace of God without effect.

Not a salvation issue .More of how do we personally hear God, seeing we are commanded lovingly to seek his approval . I think in that way we are given what is called four gospels. Inspired by the same author heard a little differently from one to the other. . maintaining the integrity of the word.. leading to the one gospel of Christ after no man

The lesson you offered begins with 1Cor 10:1-2

“Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.- 1Cor 10:1-2

It would speak of the unseen work of God the baptism of the Holy Spirit baptizing with the doctrines of God the gospel . Water baptism was reserved for the priesthood.

It would seem in that way to represent the doctrines of God as a way of not confusing it with the doctrines of men . This is to show us the direction of the blessing that come down and not earthly inspired by the father of lies. Some would say inspired or bound on earth loosed in heaven. Like the Catholics turning things upside down just as the apostate Jews .

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

In doing so they take away the understanding of the Potter making the word of God without effect.

In that way Let Jesus wash away your tears and fears of the unknown through the wter of the word as the doctrines of God.

Deuteronomy 32:1-2 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

The water (h20) baptism has it roots in the old testament as a ceremonial law or shadow. It used when a Levi had a desire to perform priestly duties . .It was fulfilled with Jesus who came after the order of Melchedik a high priest as the Son of God continually.

Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

Jesus from the tribe of Judah was baptized by the last Levi John of the old order. .Jesus is the high of priest of the new . He sends us out two by two to baptize in the name or authority of doctrines of God that come from above..

Water baptism is used in respect to all nations today men and woman Jew and gentile as a Kingdom of priests Our citizenship is in heaven being reserved.

No outward sign needed to confirm a person has the Holy Spirit. We walk by faith the eternal not seen not after what the eyes see the temporal.

It was what the conversation as to the w question asked was about. How could a person from the tribe of Judah baptize. . and is now taking on the priestly duties and is also baptizing ??? . John pointed upward from where the doctrines come from (except it be given him from heaven) the place the doctrines of God come from loosed from heaven bound or falling like rain on earth

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. John 3:25-26

We look up from where our help comes from . Not to water (H20)used as a ceremonial law .It can be applied as a on going ceremonial law but it does not confirm a person has the Holy Spirit . We have that witness in us it does not come after something we could perform .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure (His witness) in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Those who do say water is the witness would be after those who seek a sign before they will believe.

There is no such thing as a sign gift. The two words are never used to represent one thought. Spiritual gift not seen yes . When rightly dividing the word... We walk by faith the unseen eternal not after the temporal things seen.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
1,262
470
83
#64
Trespass
G3900
παράπτωμα
paraptōma
par-ap'-to-mah
From G3895; a side slip (lapse or deviation), that is, (unintentional) error or (wilful) transgression: - fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

Debt
G3783
ὀφείλημα
opheilēma
of-i'-lay-mah
From (the alternate of) G3784; something owed, that is, (figuratively) a due.; morally a fault: - debt.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

Similar, but not exactly the same.
Thanks for the info, it seems trespasses a better choice, I wonder though why the people who translate scripture go with those words instead of just saying forgive our sin and their sins. makes me question what was the true original wordings, is it debt or trespass or sin.