forgive us as we forgive others?

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,521
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#21
Under The law of Moses, God won’t forgive you if you don’t forgive people.
Faith does not seem to work that way.

According the law of God typified by Moses. Not literally Moses law as to the letter, it kills .According to the law of faith it creates a new.

The law of God informs. If any man Jew or gentile have not the faith of Christ working in them to both will and do his good pleasure (imputed righteousness ) then neither do they belong to Him . The law of faith working together as if two make the Law of Moses perfect. Taking away the wage of sin.

Jesus is both the just one, as well as the one that justifies according to His labor of love or also called work of faith .

Christian as new creatures are not of the flesh .They simply do not wrestle against the things seen but the unseen high places.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

Mixing the two makes it complete/perfect. Niether stand alone. I believe we can see the effects of that living work that does work in our new hearts.

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.. . . Psalm 19: 7-14
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,288
444
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#22
No, it is not. You cannot ascribe to God as you did a judgment against persons in the Old Testament that is not in God's own words. (Scripture)
Jesus himself said in the Lord’s Prayer as the op listed right? You have an issue with that?

If you choose not to interpret it literally, that is your choice.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,750
862
113
#23
Jesus himself said in the Lord’s Prayer as the op listed right? You have an issue with that?

If you choose not to interpret it literally, that is your choice.
The Lord’s Prayer
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give
us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us
not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.
Amen.

The Lord's prayer was in the New Testament, not the Old Testament.

Where in that prayer does Jesus say what you said of God,who was Jesus, in your post #10:
Under The law of Moses, God won’t forgive you if you don’t forgive people.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,750
862
113
#24
Faith does not seem to work that way.

According the law of God typified by Moses. Not literally Moses law as to the letter, it kills .According to the law of faith it creates a new.

The law of God informs. If any man Jew or gentile have not the faith of Christ working in them to both will and do his good pleasure (imputed righteousness ) then neither do they belong to Him . The law of faith working together as if two make the Law of Moses perfect. Taking away the wage of sin.

Jesus is both the just one, as well as the one that justifies according to His labor of love or also called work of faith .

Christian as new creatures are not of the flesh .They simply do not wrestle against the things seen but the unseen high places.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

Mixing the two makes it complete/perfect. Niether stand alone. I believe we can see the effects of that living work that does work in our new hearts.

The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.. . . Psalm 19: 7-14
Well done.

The Catholic church will sometimes refer to the law of Moses as the law of works. Moses' law was nailed to the cross with Jesus. The law of Moses did not bring Salvation. Rather, it was there to lead people to realize they needed Salvation. And it also was used for setting standards of decency to be followed by the people.

As the Saint Apostle Paul remarked in his epistle, letter, to the Galatians. The Book of Galatians chapter 3
24.So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Keeping the law of Moses as if it were there to bring people to Salvation if obeyed is what caused the temple elders to condemn Jesus as a law breaker. But Jesus was the law giver in truth since He was God who gave the laws to Moses. That's why though they're referred to as the laws of Moses they were the laws of God.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,288
444
83
#25
The Lord’s Prayer
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give
us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us
not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever.
Amen.

The Lord's prayer was in the New Testament, not the Old Testament.

Where in that prayer does Jesus say what you said of God,who was Jesus, in your post #10:
2 points for your consideration:

The first one is easier for people to accept: You should quote the Matthew version where Jesus explicitly explained what the OP was asking about, the part that you also stated

and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

Jesus explained what he meant further on in Matthew 6:14-15

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


That should be clear enough, I hope, to you?

The 2nd point is that the New covenant only started after Jesus shed his blood at the cross (Hebrews 9:15-17, Matthew 26:28).

Jesus was born under the Law, to minister only to the circumcision. So when Jesus was preaching the Lord's prayer, it is technically still the Old Testament. He was fulfilling the Law at every step of his ministry. Much of Matthew-John is as OT, as the rest of the OT.
 

limmuwd

Active member
Oct 12, 2019
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Kingdom of God
to-him-who-overcomes.com
#26
God's word does say that in Mt 6:14-15 'For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.'
Also, it for our own good. Carrying the burden of resentment or unforgiveness is unhealthy. And when we disobey something God has instructed us to do, it's a sin. If I can forgive my brother who cheated me out of $200,000+, anyone else can do it. Btw, after yrs of resentment, when I totally cast his offense to the Lord, my brother has contacted me after 13 yrs to make it right.
Follow the Lord's guidance and we can't lose. (y)
Amen. You are correct. And yes, forgiveness often does us more good than the one who wronged us, by setting us free. :)

And here in Matt 6:14-15, and in Matt 18, we find that indeed God's forgiveness is conditional. We MUST forgive others, lest God revoke His forgiveness.
Peter as well, in his first sermon after the infilling of the Spirit, declared -

Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38

Sadly, it seems to be taught today that we enter into a some state of eternal forgiveness after being "saved." The Scripture will not bear that up. Rather, as you and others have pointed out, we must ourselves have a forgiving heart towards all, which is of the character of one who is truly walking in repentance.

"Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem." - Luke 24:45-47

Amen. May we have "ears to hear" and "be renewed in our minds" that we might "understand the Scripture."

Peace & Blessings to all who walk with Jesus on the Way.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,288
444
83
#27
Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38
Interesting, do you still preach like this to the unsaved now? That they need to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,570
1,031
113
#28
No.
Our sins are under the blood of Jesus for all our lives. God does not remove His grace from us once we are reborn in the Son.

"That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

What Jesus said above is exactly what it means. It means that this is just another condition on salvation to keep in mind and not just "Once saved always saved." Notice in the beginning of the context the King/God, forgave the servant/believer and then later when he would not forgive a fellow servant/believer, the penalty for his sins was reinstated. I'm sure that if a believer repented of that that God would forgive him/her. But if a believer dies with that attitude of unforgiveness, then what Jesus said will be fulfilled.

It is the same thing regarding what Jesus taught about the vine and the branches, or anyone who doesn't take up his cross, or any believer that doesn't bear fruit, or those who wander away from the truth (James 5:19).

The condition for salvation is and has always been faith. Not just a one time confession, but a faith from first to last.

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

According to the scripture above, we have been reconciled by Christ's physical body through His death. However, the next line has a condition to our reconciliation, which is "if indeed you continue in your faith."
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,945
630
113
#29
No.
Our sins are under the blood of Jesus for all our lives. God does not remove His grace from us once we are reborn in the Son.

The parable pertains to those who are not yet in Christ and the consequences of a hard heart. However, the parable as pertains to those who are in Christ is that the man that went to prison in the parable is the consequence we would have suffered , an example, were we not bought with a price and our sin debt was not paid by Christ dying on the cross.
Therefore, if we who are in Christ ever think we cannot forgive someone their trespass against us, we are to be reminded of that parable in the Book of Matthew.
You start with your own statement that God does not remove His grace from the believer. Then you use that to say Matthew 6:12-15 does not mean what it literally seems to say. Which Matt. 6:15 seems to be clear: "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

I am not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, but I am just wanting to not ignore the literal words of Scripture. What is your basis for saying that "the parable pertains to those not yet in Christ" or if for 'those in Christ" that is refers only to the "consequences we would have suffered"? It is not enough for me to say just that it cannot mean what it directly seems to say.

I have questions about the correct interpretation here, and that is why I asked - not because I have it figured out . . . ! :)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,945
630
113
#30
Unfortunately I will be gone till Monday, so I will miss out on any discussion till then, but I will catch up then. God bless.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,241
855
113
#31
Guojing is right that you have to forgive in that dispensation or you wont be forgiven.

Matthew 6:14 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
 

limmuwd

Active member
Oct 12, 2019
177
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Kingdom of God
to-him-who-overcomes.com
#32
Interesting, do you still preach like this to the unsaved now? That they need to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins?
Yes, that is my message to those the Lord brings into my path who are walking in darkness and want to be free.
But, honestly, I preach that more to church-goers than I do to those outside the church. For sadly, the bulk of folk sitting in the pews Sunday morning have never repented and are still in their sins. I, myself, am striving to live a repentant and obedient life; and I am by no means there yet; but that is my aim. For I know what God has called me to; and only those who truly Repent and Walk Worthy will inherit the promises of God in Rev 2 & 3.

May we be among those who do.
Peace & Blessings.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
2,288
444
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#33
Yes, that is my message to those the Lord brings into my path who are walking in darkness and want to be free.
But, honestly, I preach that more to church-goers than I do to those outside the church. For sadly, the bulk of folk sitting in the pews Sunday morning have never repented and are still in their sins. I, myself, am striving to live a repentant and obedient life; and I am by no means there yet; but that is my aim. For I know what God has called me to; and only those who truly Repent and Walk Worthy will inherit the promises of God in Rev 2 & 3.

May we be among those who do.
Peace & Blessings.
I see that you still believe water baptism is required for salvation. Are you either from the Church of Christ or a Baptist church?
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,241
855
113
#34
I see that you still believe water baptism is required for salvation. Are you either from the Church of Christ or a Baptist church?
baptist dont believe water baptism for salvation. atleast any that i visited. Dr. Gene Kim is baptist bible believer he doesnt teach it either. he has bible believers youtube channel. you might like it they are dispensational.
 

limmuwd

Active member
Oct 12, 2019
177
61
28
53
Kingdom of God
to-him-who-overcomes.com
#35
I see that you still believe water baptism is required for salvation. Are you either from the Church of Christ or a Baptist church?
Although I am a member of, and have taught quite a bit in, the Foursquare denomination, my beliefs differ a bit from their stance on some theology; so perhaps I'm better labeled non-denominational.

I believe Baptism is essential. But it is more than, and not limited to, being baptized in water.
It's too long to post here, but from a teaching I'm currently doing on 1Cor 10, we look into Baptism, from both New and Old Testaments, and how is fits into our Journey; as we walk the Way with the Lord toward the "rest of God."
If you've interested, (it's in essay form, not a video), you can view that portion of the Bible Study I've been teaching in our church, here-
1Corinthians 10 Study (part 5) BAPTISM

Peace & Blessings!
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,521
1,005
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#36
2 points for your consideration:

The first one is easier for people to accept: You should quote the Matthew version where Jesus explicitly explained what the OP was asking about, the part that you also stated

and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

Jesus explained what he meant further on in Matthew 6:14-15

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That should be clear enough, I hope, to you?

The 2nd point is that the New covenant only started after Jesus shed his blood at the cross (Hebrews 9:15-17, Matthew 26:28).

Jesus was born under the Law, to minister only to the circumcision. So when Jesus was preaching the Lord's prayer, it is technically still the Old Testament. He was fulfilling the Law at every step of his ministry. Much of Matthew-John is as OT, as the rest of the OT.
Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law as a sign of circummsion a shadow to represent as our bloody husband, the first born .He said it is finished .The reformation came .

All of the ceremonial laws spoke of our bloody husband, Jesus the gospel preached beforehand and the glory that did follow the opening of the first ressurection. Those men on the other side of the cross received the end of their new faith from the first, hearing of the gospel of salvation just as us we look back. (no difference)

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:11

Jesus was the last to walk on water..

I think it is clear enough. If God literal will not forgive us before he can forgive us .There would be no salvation.

Its another of the keepers . Keep it by guarding it with all our heart soul and mind. Only God can keep it perfectly.

We can deny Him in unbelief. He cannot deny he has paid the wage in full .. . he remains faithful.

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,091
3,011
113
#37
As part of the Lord's Prayer we have this in Matthew 6:12: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

What are your thoughts? What does this mean? What was Jesus trying to say?
If we desire and expect mercy, we must also have the same desire and expectations in extending mercy to all others.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,750
862
113
#38
2 points for your consideration:

The first one is easier for people to accept: You should quote the Matthew version where Jesus explicitly explained what the OP was asking about, the part that you also stated

and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,

Jesus explained what he meant further on in Matthew 6:14-15

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That should be clear enough, I hope, to you?

The 2nd point is that the New covenant only started after Jesus shed his blood at the cross (Hebrews 9:15-17, Matthew 26:28).

Jesus was born under the Law, to minister only to the circumcision. So when Jesus was preaching the Lord's prayer, it is technically still the Old Testament. He was fulfilling the Law at every step of his ministry. Much of Matthew-John is as OT, as the rest of the OT.
The Lord's prayer that I posted is translation from the original Aramaic.
Original Aramiac with translation


Lords Prayer (English)
Our Father who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done,
On earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses (debts) as we forgive those who trespass
against us (our debtors).
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us
from evil.
For thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever.
Amen.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
1,750
862
113
#39
You start with your own statement that God does not remove His grace from the believer. Then you use that to say Matthew 6:12-15 does not mean what it literally seems to say. Which Matt. 6:15 seems to be clear: "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

I am not saying you are wrong in what you are saying, but I am just wanting to not ignore the literal words of Scripture. What is your basis for saying that "the parable pertains to those not yet in Christ" or if for 'those in Christ" that is refers only to the "consequences we would have suffered"? It is not enough for me to say just that it cannot mean what it directly seems to say.

I have questions about the correct interpretation here, and that is why I asked - not because I have it figured out . . . ! :)
You might enjoy this. This is a link to a single page at the resource offered. However, it is rather enlightening I think. I hope you find it useful in your studies.
The Lord’s Prayer Complete

There's a saying among scholars and those who love to study the Bible and all fields of study that pertain to and broaden our understanding. Patristics, Soteriology, Textual Criticism, Eschatology, and so forth.
Those who are hungry for the word, as you appear to be and I myself, could study all our lives those particular fields as laypersons that draw us to them and we will always be hungry for more.
I think it is the Holy Spirit that leads us in that way. We want to go deeper into the truth and as such realize what part man had in bringing the Cannon to us. While also keeping in our hearts the truth that God is The Word first and foremost.

God Bless.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,073
2,928
113
#40
Amen. You are correct. And yes, forgiveness often does us more good than the one who wronged us, by setting us free. :)
To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.
Lewis B Smedes