Former pentecostal
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It's a record of how that passage has been interpreted by every scholar who has ever written about it from the earliest writers to the current consensus.
It is obviously going to include those you don't agree with those you do.
It includes the very first person who ever presented the idea that "that which is perfect" was the completion of the canon and who else after him elaborated such an opinion. There were not but a few who did this and so it is educational for people to who think that is a majority view among cessationist to learn that it is not at all and never has been. For obvious reasons.
I think the only Bible teachers who still teach that as if it were a legitimate interpretation is the Church of Christ denomination.
I am persuaded that it means when we are resurrected but I base that on what Paul said about when he would be perfect. I may have once considered "when Jesus comes back" many years ago I might have said something vague about that, but for a long time now I have considered it to refer to "that state of perfection we will arrive at when we are post resurrection" Which is a view articulated by the modern consensus and probably has always been the most popular view among scholars, for obvious reasons.
It is obviously going to include those you don't agree with those you do.
It includes the very first person who ever presented the idea that "that which is perfect" was the completion of the canon and who else after him elaborated such an opinion. There were not but a few who did this and so it is educational for people to who think that is a majority view among cessationist to learn that it is not at all and never has been. For obvious reasons.
I think the only Bible teachers who still teach that as if it were a legitimate interpretation is the Church of Christ denomination.
I am persuaded that it means when we are resurrected but I base that on what Paul said about when he would be perfect. I may have once considered "when Jesus comes back" many years ago I might have said something vague about that, but for a long time now I have considered it to refer to "that state of perfection we will arrive at when we are post resurrection" Which is a view articulated by the modern consensus and probably has always been the most popular view among scholars, for obvious reasons.
the Church Fathers tells us the Gifts will be here until that [which is PREFECT] which is when we see God face to face.
since that's not happened yet, Perfect has not come.
the debate is Tongues ends when that which is PERFECT has come.
i tend to use resources closest to the source like the Church Fathers who chose to write about this.
Irenaeus:
As therefore, when that which is perfect is come, we shall not see another Father, but Him who we now desire to see [12]
Tertullian:
refers to the visible manifestation of Jesus
Clement of Alexander:
to' teaelov is the believer's state when he see's God
Origen:
combines Verse 12 with 10 when we see Jesus [face to face]
Eusebius:
The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic Gifts should continue in all the Church until the final Coming of Jesus
Archelaus:
"the perfect" is Jesus
Methodius:
the return of Christ and events associated with it
Ambrose:
when we are face to face with God
Jerome:
when we see the Glory of the Lord
Leo the Great:
when we see God as He really is
so as we see, these Church Fathers tells us that the PERFECT TO COME is when we see God [face to face].
none of us have seen God face to face so we can deduct that Speaking in Tongues is still active today.
since that's not happened yet, Perfect has not come.
the debate is Tongues ends when that which is PERFECT has come.
i tend to use resources closest to the source like the Church Fathers who chose to write about this.
Irenaeus:
As therefore, when that which is perfect is come, we shall not see another Father, but Him who we now desire to see [12]
Tertullian:
refers to the visible manifestation of Jesus
Clement of Alexander:
to' teaelov is the believer's state when he see's God
Origen:
combines Verse 12 with 10 when we see Jesus [face to face]
Eusebius:
The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic Gifts should continue in all the Church until the final Coming of Jesus
Archelaus:
"the perfect" is Jesus
Methodius:
the return of Christ and events associated with it
Ambrose:
when we are face to face with God
Jerome:
when we see the Glory of the Lord
Leo the Great:
when we see God as He really is
so as we see, these Church Fathers tells us that the PERFECT TO COME is when we see God [face to face].
none of us have seen God face to face so we can deduct that Speaking in Tongues is still active today.
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Yeah this is a clone of post 51 I presume.
It's good support and I don't disagree personally but what tongues happens to be isn't something I'm interested in discussing at this time.
I'm an interpreter if anything and I'll expound on that a tad in a little bit after I figure out if it's a good time to share or not since I'd prefer a bit more honing. This thread somehow brought that about in me just by reading a post I couldn't quite agree with but I tried to "make it agree" in the larger context of the body (an eye would have a different perspective than a foot) but it did trigger an alternate understanding that I think a fair few people may have experienced but might just be simple discernment. Not sure. Anyway, I appreciate it. Take care.
Maybe in an hour lol.
It's good support and I don't disagree personally but what tongues happens to be isn't something I'm interested in discussing at this time.
I'm an interpreter if anything and I'll expound on that a tad in a little bit after I figure out if it's a good time to share or not since I'd prefer a bit more honing. This thread somehow brought that about in me just by reading a post I couldn't quite agree with but I tried to "make it agree" in the larger context of the body (an eye would have a different perspective than a foot) but it did trigger an alternate understanding that I think a fair few people may have experienced but might just be simple discernment. Not sure. Anyway, I appreciate it. Take care.
Maybe in an hour lol.
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.
Yes, I will beware because of this Bible
Contrast study [credit D Adams]:
-------------------
--------------------
Precious friend, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified
In The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).
Grace, Peace, And JOY!...
Yes, I will beware because of this Bible
Contrast study [credit D Adams]:
-------------------
--------------------
Precious friend, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified
In The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).
Grace, Peace, And JOY!...
Ok well, I was just wrestling with the idea that interpreting a "tongue" can be as unique as a person's "personal" language. I mean what you feel when you hear your favorite worship song...can you put that into words "really"... how music affects everyone in different ways that aren't really translatable "mostly". Not what pentecostal/charismatic believers define as tongues. I don't get that and just like being slain in the spirit...I've been around other people that have experienced these things and witnessed them but it seems God doesn't work that way with me so I press on with how I believe he has and does.
I've had many experiences where I talked to someone where no one ever "got them" or understood what they were trying to get across and I have a gift of understanding certain people that goes far beyond simple psychology at times. It's like the Spirit within them is saying something to me and I can interpret for them...articulate it...and it's pretty neat.
Imagine a stroke victim or someone with a serious mental handicap that affects their speech...they need an interpreter for their "tongue" and I sometimes can just tell what they are saying. This element may just be a natural gifting since caregivers and people that work with special needs have that aptitude also but I've definitely had moments where I'm pretty confident it's the Lord supernaturally (beyond what I would normally be able to do). I credit him for natural giftings as well so it gets a bit puzzling to try and separate the two.
I just know that sometimes it's something extra and it's for a particular spiritual purpose and the times where it's just helping a person communicate with somewhat humdrum results, I still see the Lord in that too...it's just "less".
Sort of like creation testifying of him...is that a direct work of the Holy Spirit or an indirect auxiliary process? It can still function the same way depending on the situation.
Grrr, I'd like to be a bit clearer on direct vs indirect but it'd take some time to be succinct (shortcoming of mine sometimes) but the main point was "what is a tongue" and how people ONLY seem to see two options...either a different earthly language (English, Spanish, Chinese, Greek, etc) or a heavenly language.
Each of us have a unique language on the deepest level. Even the heavens have a language...day unto day they uttereth speech...
Obviously the latter is beside the point but in my own roundabout way a lot of things interlock to make things that are mysterious and puzzling make a bit more sense. They do in my own mind at least
I've had many experiences where I talked to someone where no one ever "got them" or understood what they were trying to get across and I have a gift of understanding certain people that goes far beyond simple psychology at times. It's like the Spirit within them is saying something to me and I can interpret for them...articulate it...and it's pretty neat.
Imagine a stroke victim or someone with a serious mental handicap that affects their speech...they need an interpreter for their "tongue" and I sometimes can just tell what they are saying. This element may just be a natural gifting since caregivers and people that work with special needs have that aptitude also but I've definitely had moments where I'm pretty confident it's the Lord supernaturally (beyond what I would normally be able to do). I credit him for natural giftings as well so it gets a bit puzzling to try and separate the two.
I just know that sometimes it's something extra and it's for a particular spiritual purpose and the times where it's just helping a person communicate with somewhat humdrum results, I still see the Lord in that too...it's just "less".
Sort of like creation testifying of him...is that a direct work of the Holy Spirit or an indirect auxiliary process? It can still function the same way depending on the situation.
Grrr, I'd like to be a bit clearer on direct vs indirect but it'd take some time to be succinct (shortcoming of mine sometimes) but the main point was "what is a tongue" and how people ONLY seem to see two options...either a different earthly language (English, Spanish, Chinese, Greek, etc) or a heavenly language.
Each of us have a unique language on the deepest level. Even the heavens have a language...day unto day they uttereth speech...
Obviously the latter is beside the point but in my own roundabout way a lot of things interlock to make things that are mysterious and puzzling make a bit more sense. They do in my own mind at least
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