Free Gifts Come With Conditions....

[apostolic862004]

We are saved by grace through faith. I think everyone here believes that because its scripture. But just how that works is what we debate all the time. So in true fashion, let me give my discourse:

Grace is unmerited favor. Something given that was not earned or deserved. It is given simply because the giver wants to do it right? So when Jesus Christ died on the cross, that was grace. We did not earn his death, we did not deserve his death. He did it because he wanted to. But when he died on the cross, that did not automatically save everybody. That only made salvation AVAILABLE to everybody. That was grace.

Once salvation was made available, there were some things that Christ said we must DO in order to be saved. That is faith. You will not DO what he said if you don't BELIEVE in what he did. And if you don't DO what he said, you DON'T believe, no matter how much you claim to be a believer. It is THROUGH faith we have access to the salvation that he has given. And our faith is shown by our works. (James 2:18)

If you guys were all in a room, and I said I have a million dollars to give away to everyone in this room, that is grace. You didn't do anything to earn or deserve me doing that. But then I say, in order to get the million dollars, you have to run in a circle 5 times. If you really believe I will give you a million dollars, you will get to running! But if you don't believe I even have a million dollars, you are going to say "I am not going to make my self look like a fool for you!" Well, if you don't do what I said, you won't get the million dollars, but that doesn't mean that I didn't give you grace, because I did make it available to you but you decided not to DO anything about it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are saved by grace through faith. I think everyone here believes that because its scripture. But just how that works is what we debate all the time. So in true fashion, let me give my discourse:

Grace is unmerited favor. Something given that was not earned or deserved. It is given simply because the giver wants to do it right? So when Jesus Christ died on the cross, that was grace. We did not earn his death, we did not deserve his death. He did it because he wanted to. But when he died on the cross, that did not automatically save everybody. That only made salvation AVAILABLE to everybody. That was grace.

Once salvation was made available, there were some things that Christ said we must DO in order to be saved. That is faith. You will not DO what he said if you don't BELIEVE in what he did. And if you don't DO what he said, you DON'T believe, no matter how much you claim to be a believer. It is THROUGH faith we have access to the salvation that he has given. And our faith is shown by our works. (James 2:18)

this all sounds good. But I must ask a few questions.

the bible does not say the cross was grace (free)

it says salvation was free
it says justification was free.
it says eternal life was free (gift)

so of all these things are free. how can there be conditions placed on them? they would not longer be free or of grace, they would be merited reward, or as paul calls it in romans 4, a merited debt (God owes you a debt for your work. thus God is indebted to you, and not the other way around)

If you guys were all in a room, and I said I have a million dollars to give away to everyone in this room, that is grace. You didn't do anything to earn or deserve me doing that. But then I say, in order to get the million dollars, you have to run in a circle 5 times. If you really believe I will give you a million dollars, you will get to running!

you just made a fool of yourself and made yourself a hypocrite.

you claimed the million dollars was free. but you demanded a condition. thus it was not free, you paid the people to run around the room 5 times, granted, a million dollars to run around the room 5 times is a steal. But I still earned it. thus it was not a gift, but a reward. (can you be my boss. if I only have to do that little work for that much money, I want to work for you!!

But if you don't believe I even have a million dollars, you are going to say "I am not going to make my self look like a fool for you!" Well, if you don't do what I said, you won't get the million dollars, but that doesn't mean that I didn't give you grace, because I did make it available to you but you decided not to DO anything about it.

lol. You asked for a work, and offered to reward the work.

Anyone who did the work you required placed you in DEBT to give them the million dollors. If you did not give them what you promised, You lied. this you are in debt to them, to give them what they EARNED.

You almost got it. but lets rephrase it to make it look like a real gift, and not a reward.

1. I offer a room of men a million dollars. They say what work must I do to earn it. I say I did the work to get it, I am offering it to you as a gift.
2. Those who trust you will take it
3. Those who do not trust you will not.
4. Those who believe you really have it, but do not trust you (faith) will also not take it, Because they think you are going to pop some work into the equation, in other words, you want them to earn it. this it was never a gift to begin with.

The gift was offered to all, Paid for by your own work to get the thing you were offering.

It was YOUR WORK, and YOUR PROMISE they trusted in. Thats why their faith was your work, and not our own work.

Now. to those who had faith and recieve the million dollars based on your grace to them. They WILL use that gift to do work which will glorify and honor you (since you paid for it and they did nothing to earn it)


this is true grace.

 

[2Thewaters]

...and working to meet the attached conditions cannot earn the free gift already being given. This is a very simple concept some have trouble understanding while others simply do not care to understand it.

Biblical examples:

Exodus 16:

God owed the Israelites nothing but because of His grace God sent them the free gift of manna. Yet the free gift came with the condition of the Israelites doing the work of gathering the manna. Had the Israelites not done the work of gathering the manna (faith only) then they would have remained hungry. Therefore they must have done the work of gathering the manna in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of gathering earned them nothing.

Absolutely

 

[crossnote]

...and working to meet the attached conditions cannot earn the free gift already being given. This is a very simple concept some have trouble understanding while others simply do not care to understand it.

Biblical examples:


Exodus 16:

God owed the Israelites nothing but because of His grace God sent them the free gift of manna. Yet the free gift came with the condition of the Israelites doing the work of gathering the manna. Had the Israelites not done the work of gathering the manna (faith only) then they would have remained hungry. Therefore they must have done the work of gathering the manna in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of gathering earned them nothing.

The manna was already given, lying on the ground. That's like saying opening the gift wrap is a condition to receiving the gift.

 

[apostolic862004]

this all sounds good. But I must ask a few questions.

the bible does not say the cross was grace (free)

it says salvation was free
it says justification was free.
it says eternal life was free (gift)

so of all these things are free. how can there be conditions placed on them? they would not longer be free or of grace, they would be merited reward, or as paul calls it in romans 4, a merited debt (God owes you a debt for your work. thus God is indebted to you, and not the other way around)



you just made a fool of yourself and made yourself a hypocrite.

you claimed the million dollars was free. but you demanded a condition. thus it was not free, you paid the people to run around the room 5 times, granted, a million dollars to run around the room 5 times is a steal. But I still earned it. thus it was not a gift, but a reward. (can you be my boss. if I only have to do that little work for that much money, I want to work for you!!



lol. You asked for a work, and offered to reward the work.

Anyone who did the work you required placed you in DEBT to give them the million dollors. If you did not give them what you promised, You lied. this you are in debt to them, to give them what they EARNED.

You almost got it. but lets rephrase it to make it look like a real gift, and not a reward.

1. I offer a room of men a million dollars. They say what work must I do to earn it. I say I did the work to get it, I am offering it to you as a gift.
2. Those who trust you will take it
3. Those who do not trust you will not.
4. Those who believe you really have it, but do not trust you (faith) will also not take it, Because they think you are going to pop some work into the equation, in other words, you want them to earn it. this it was never a gift to begin with.

The gift was offered to all, Paid for by your own work to get the thing you were offering.

It was YOUR WORK, and YOUR PROMISE they trusted in. Thats why their faith was your work, and not our own work.

Now. to those who had faith and recieve the million dollars based on your grace to them. They WILL use that gift to do work which will glorify and honor you (since you paid for it and they did nothing to earn it)


this is true grace.

So if I believe what you are saying, then there is nothing I have to do to receive salvation. Once Christ died on the cross, I was saved. I don't have to believe it, I don't have to confess it, I don't have to accept it. Because once I do either one of those things, I have EARNED it according to you. If I have to believe it to accept it, then it is not a gift, he paid me to believe it right? If I have to confess it to get it, then he paid me to confess it. If I have to accept what he did, then he paid me to confess it. This is according to what you just stated correct?

 

[notuptome]

When men give gifts they always have conditions. God is not like men in that aspect. The gift changes all who receive it so the recipient does nothing but the gift accomplishes everything.

This is a very unique aspect of Christianity. Everything that must be done God did. The gift is soo unlike any other gift that it can only come from God.

His ways are greater than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. What is man that Thou art mindful of him?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[apostolic862004]

In Luke 13:3 Jesus said Except you repent, you are going to perish.
In John 3:5, Jesus said Except a man is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I will let you guys argue with Jesus about whether or not these are conditions to salvation and whether or not he should be putting conditions on salvation. But I tell you what, if you don't obey these scriptures, YOU AINT GOING TO HEAVEN! Call them conditions, call them works, call them whatever you want. But you better do it you want to go to heaven because one thing you won't do is call Jesus a liar and be telling the truth about it! He isn't a liar and if he said you aint getting in without DOING these things, YOU AINT GETTIN IN!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So if I believe what you are saying, then there is nothing I have to do to receive salvation. Once Christ died on the cross, I was saved.

In other words. your saying God predestined you before time began, based on his knowledge of your faith, which did not happen until long after his death? Yeah, this is what scripture says.
'

I don't have to believe it, I don't have to confess it, I don't have to accept it. Because once I do either one of those things, I have EARNED it according to you.

lol. So lets totally ignore everything I said in the post your responding to.

How did you come up with the million dollars to offer it. So that people who trusted you could take it. Was it your work? Thats what I thought.

It was your work that gained them the million dollors. Not theirs. they trusted in YOU!!

If I have to believe it to accept it, then it is not a gift, he paid me to believe it right?

No. If you just believe it, you would never take it, You have to actually trust the person who is giving it to you.

Your not working, because it is not your work which earns it, it was his work which earned it, and allowed him to offer it to you in the first place.

If I have to confess it to get it, then he paid me to confess it. If I have to accept what he did, then he paid me to confess it. This is according to what you just stated correct?

Again, Proof you did not read anything, Why do you bother responding to my posts when you are not even going to discuss the content of what I said.

Again, If you did not have the million dollars to offer me, what good would my faith in you be? it would be worthless. because I trusted in you to keep your promise, and you were not worthy of my faith.

In the same token, if You tell me you are offering it to me as a gift, you did all the work. And I go do work, to earn it, I have mocked you, I have mocked your gift. and I have mocked your hard work you did to get the money in the first place.

I might as well tell you to keep your money, and I will go earn it myself.

 

[Nick01]

lol.. so we see how far one will go to make his belief appear true.

if a FREE gift comes with CONDITIONS. it is NOT FREE.

Manna is a sorry excuse.

1. God gave it to them while they were in sin and rebellion.
2. God gave it to them freely, just as he promised.

What they did with it was up to them, if they rejected it, they died in unbelief and rejection. if they took it, they acted on their faith, and their faith saved them.

No matter what, God still gave it to them.. which proves grace and mercy on a sinful and rebellious people

Someone gives you a free puppy. If you do not look after your free puppy, it will die/and or Animal Welfare will come and take if off you. Instead you will care for the puppy, love it, look after it, and watch it grow. Living a Christian life has nothing to do with earning the gift, but it has to do with living in the light of the gift and of the giver.

 

[Grandpa]

When men give gifts they always have conditions. God is not like men in that aspect. The gift changes all who receive it so the recipient does nothing but the gift accomplishes everything.

This is a very unique aspect of Christianity. Everything that must be done God did. The gift is soo unlike any other gift that it can only come from God.

His ways are greater than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. What is man that Thou art mindful of him?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And that is what the schoolmaster teaches us. We all thought, like men, that if we obeyed He would reward us.

But we couldn't obey. His Gift was given even though we didn't deserve or obey.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Someone gives you a free puppy. If you do not look after your free puppy, it will die/and or Animal Welfare will come and take if off you. Instead you will care for the puppy, love it, look after it, and watch it grow. Living a Christian life has nothing to do with earning the gift, but it has to do with living in the light of the gift and of the giver.

it is still your puppy. It is still my salvation. when I stand in front of God. i will either have many rewards. or watch my rewards burn as wood hay and straw (depending on what I did with my salvation) but as paul says, I am still saved, at that time, even though as through fire.

if I offer you a gift, and you mock me by saying you need to work for it. you can not believe I would give you something for free, I will not give you your gift. I will wait till you get on your knees and say you give, You will take the gift you want so badly.

sadly. Many will stand in front of Christ thinking they got the gift. only to realise God did not give it to them, because they did not trust him, and mocked him by trying to work for it, because they refused to believe God would give it to them for nothing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And that is what the schoolmaster teaches us. We all thought, like men, that if we obeyed He would reward us.

But we couldn't obey. His Gift was given even though we didn't deserve or obey.

Thats what is so sad, He HAD to give it as a gift, or non of us could be saved. and we would be lost for all eternity.

This proves to satan, Every fallen angel. Every angel who stayed with God. and will prove to every man who comes before God. that he is the God of Love.

anything which falls short of this. does not prove God is a God of love, period

 

[SeaBass]

No work = no faith. A dead faith is no faith at all. When are you going to open your eyes and see this?



wrong, If God did not do the work of sending them manna, they would have died no matter how much work they did. their faith was in God. he did all the work. Their faith was proven by action. But action did not save them, the work of God did.

No work = no faith
No faith = no work


You're still avoiding the fact that even though God sent the manna, they still had to do the work of gathering.

Had they not done the work of gathering, would they have had manna to eat? No. So they would go hungry with no work.

 

[SeaBass]

No. Your the one trying to find a hard way to avoid a proven fact.

the manna was a free gift to everyone.

What they did with it was up to them. Just like you. Your trying to grow your own manna, and not take the manna of God in faith.




Nah, If it was of works, God would have only given manna to people who had faith in him, And not to the sinners and others who rejected his manna.

Again, Your whole argument is based on a false pretense.

I have said the manna was a free gift of God's grace to the people.

If they were to eat the manna then they must do the work of gathering. God did not gather it for them, that was a work they had to do.

You are trying hard to figure out a way to for them to eat the manna without them having to do any work of gathering. It's YOUR argument that is the one without logical basis.

 

[SeaBass]

other reasons it is a false pretense.

God made them his children based on his mercy alone (even though they were sinless and rebellion) it had nothing to do with the things they did, they did not earn being called his children, they were sinners.

manna was a provision given to his children, if they ate it, they were sustained, and could work. if they did not. They withered and lost their usefulness (blessing)

manna is given to Gods children, not to those not born of God. this is the whole meaning of the passage and what God was showing.

You posted " if they ate it, they were sustained, and could work."

Here you are trying to get them eating the manna first, then do the work of gathering.

 

[SeaBass]

We are saved by grace through faith. I think everyone here believes that because its scripture. But just how that works is what we debate all the time. So in true fashion, let me give my discourse:

Grace is unmerited favor. Something given that was not earned or deserved. It is given simply because the giver wants to do it right? So when Jesus Christ died on the cross, that was grace. We did not earn his death, we did not deserve his death. He did it because he wanted to. But when he died on the cross, that did not automatically save everybody. That only made salvation AVAILABLE to everybody. That was grace.

Once salvation was made available, there were some things that Christ said we must DO in order to be saved. That is faith. You will not DO what he said if you don't BELIEVE in what he did. And if you don't DO what he said, you DON'T believe, no matter how much you claim to be a believer. It is THROUGH faith we have access to the salvation that he has given. And our faith is shown by our works. (James 2:18)

If you guys were all in a room, and I said I have a million dollars to give away to everyone in this room, that is grace. You didn't do anything to earn or deserve me doing that. But then I say, in order to get the million dollars, you have to run in a circle 5 times. If you really believe I will give you a million dollars, you will get to running! But if you don't believe I even have a million dollars, you are going to say "I am not going to make my self look like a fool for you!" Well, if you don't do what I said, you won't get the million dollars, but that doesn't mean that I didn't give you grace, because I did make it available to you but you decided not to DO anything about it.

You are the gift giver so you have the right to put condition of running in a circle 5 times on your free gift of a million dollars. Running in a circle 5 times cannot earn a free gift already been offered but is necessary to receive this free gift.

Those that follow the man made "faith only" put the demand upon you, the gift giver that you have no right to put any condition upon your free gift, you must give it to them unconditionally.


God, the Gift Giver, freely gave the Hebrews the manna with the condition they gather so much to eat. The "faith only" follower says I do not want to work to gather manna for I just want to sit and do nothing have the manna brought to me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No work = no faith
No faith = no work

So are you going to finally admit that it does not equal faith alone? or keep trying to say it does?

You're still avoiding the fact that even though God sent the manna, they still had to do the work of gathering.

Had they not done the work of gathering, would they have had manna to eat? No. So they would go hungry with no work.

Your still avoiding the fact they were god's children by the promise, not because anything they ever did. And the manna was given as a blessing, not to save their eternal souls.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have said the manna was a free gift of God's grace to the people.

If they were to eat the manna then they must do the work of gathering. God did not gather it for them, that was a work they had to do.

You are trying hard to figure out a way to for them to eat the manna without them having to do any work of gathering. It's YOUR argument that is the one without logical basis.

lol. Does not compute. your example does not fit. He gave it to everyone, it was their's whether they ate it or not. Going to do the work did not save them, it was their faith that saved them. Picking it up PROVED they had faith.

Again, God does not need you or I to work to KNOW we have faith now does he?? Is your God that powerless?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You posted " if they ate it, they were sustained, and could work."

Here you are trying to get them eating the manna first, then do the work of gathering.

Nope.

I had them have FAITH FIRST. then they did the work.

and actually God did the work. he gave it to them to begin with.

 

[SeaBass]

The manna was already given, lying on the ground. That's like saying opening the gift wrap is a condition to receiving the gift.

....and if they did not do the work of gathering, the manna would just continue to lay upon the ground uneaten while they stayed hungry just looking at the manna lying on the ground.