Free Grace or Faith and Works?

[Nehemiah6]

...but our faith is not the cause of our eternal salvation...

Anyone who knows the Gospel knows that faith is not "the cause" of our salvation. But faith is the means by which we obtain our salvation. BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED (Rom 16:31).

The Brazen Serpent -- which Moses set up on a pole in the wilderness -- is a type of Christ. Those Israelites had to LOOK UPON (gaze steadily upon) that Serpent in order to be saved from instantaneous death.

Every sinner must LOOK UPON CHRIST IN GENUINE FAITH in order to be saved by grace. Thus we have this Scripture: For by GRACE are ye saved THROUGH FAITH... (Eph 2:8)

When a sinner (a) believes God, (b) believes the record that God had given us concerning His Son, (c) believes with all his/her heart that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, (d) believes with all his/her heart that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures for our justification, God takes that faith into account and imputes righteousness to the one who believes God. Just as Abraham believed God, and it was imputed/accounted to him for righteousness. And this is all BECAUSE OF GOD'S GRACE.

This grace has come to earth for all mankind, not just the so-called "elect".
TITUS 2
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 

[jaybird88]

The law was fulfilled at Calvary and a new covenant is now in effect.

John the baptist, the Essenes, the 12, and Paul were all part of the new covenant community, they still followed the law just as Jesus did.

 

[Guojing]

I believe the scriptures to teach that God gave man a free will to choose how he wants to live his life while he is still on earth, but God choose man's eternal destination by his sovereign grace, without the decision of man.

So you are saying that I can live my life good or bad, but whether I am saved eternally, that is not my choice?

Isn't that the same as saying the we don't have complete free will?

 

[Guojing]

exactly, a good parent teaches their children out of love, a bad parent spoils their children by doing all the work and teaching them nothing.

I said newborn, and you keep referring to children. You are not addressing my point.

 

[Guojing]

After God gives the new birth we have fellowship with God. After we are born again and then sin by our lust of the things of the world, we lose our fellowship with God ( not our eternal security) because God has no fellowship with sin. When we repent God takes us back into his fellowship resulting in a deliverance (salvation) here in this world. The Greek interpretation of the word "salvation" is "a deliverance".

The idea that Christians lose fellowship with God when they sin, is man made and not the new covenant of grace. Let the Apostle Paul argues

We are under grace and not law Romans 6:14
When we are not under law, sin cannot be imputed to us Romans 5:13

Conclusion: Those under grace cannot be imputed with sin.

 

[oyster67]

John the baptist, the Essenes, the 12, and Paul were all part of the new covenant community, they still followed the law just as Jesus did.

We are living in the Church Age now. It is called "the new and better way".

 

[jaybird88]

I said newborn, and you keep referring to children. You are not addressing my point.

you dont seem to be making any point. newborn infants have to be cared for, ok? im not suggesting leaving newborns in the woods. good parent start teaching when they are babies, babies grow to children and eventually adults, if they are not taught right they grow into bad adults.

 

[jaybird88]

We are living in the Church Age now. It is called "the new and better way".

with respect this always seems to be the problem, mankind always thinks they can do it better. history says mankind will always fall away. bible shows the Jews always falling away and having to be brought back, the Christian church has the same pattern, inquisitions, crusades, burning people alive, does that sound like a church that is heading in the right direction, a better way?

 

[oyster67]

with respect this always seems to be the problem, mankind always thinks they can do it better. history says mankind will always fall away. bible shows the Jews always falling away and having to be brought back, the Christian church has the same pattern, inquisitions, crusades, burning people alive, does that sound like a church that is heading in the right direction, a better way?

Jesus is the author of the new and better way; "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." That's what Jesus said.

 

[Guojing]

you dont seem to be making any point. newborn infants have to be cared for, ok? im not suggesting leaving newborns in the woods. good parent start teaching when they are babies, babies grow to children and eventually adults, if they are not taught right they grow into bad adults.

Would you agree that, for the first 5 or so years when the newborn Christian, he will at least be showered by the free favors of God because God loves him?

He will not need to work for those favors? So when someone become a Christian, the rest of us should chill before making him “show works” to prove that his faith is real, like what those who love to quote James 2 are doing.

 

[jaybird88]

Jesus is the author of the new and better way; "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." That's what Jesus said.

if Jesus is the way why do we do it a different way? few Christians try and live the way Jesus did.

 

[jaybird88]

Would you agree that, for the first 5 or so years when the newborn Christian, he will at least be showered by the free favors of God because God loves him?

He will not need to work for those favors? So when someone become a Christian, the rest of us should chill before making him “show works” to prove that his faith is real, like what those who love to quote James 2 are doing.

and how do you know the newborn was shown correctly, by their actions.

again, saying you have faith, with no works, is just words. im king of north america and eastern europe, well not really but i can say it all day.

 

[Guojing]

and how do you know the newborn was shown correctly, by their actions.

again, saying you have faith, with no works, is just words. im king of north america and eastern europe, well not really but i can say it all day.

Even if you do not have kids of your own, I am sure you are aware of how parents treat their newborn baby correct? Would you ever ask them, “how do you know the baby is yours?”

 

[jaybird88]

Even if you do not have kids of your own, I am sure you are aware of how parents treat their newborn baby correct? Would you ever ask them, “how do you know the baby is yours?”

not sure what your point is. i feel i have proven that a baby has to be taught correctly in order to become a proper adult. if you think its all a free gift then there would be no reason for Jesus to teach or do anything, why not just send the free gift from the heavens. there is more to it than Jesus coming to this world and getting crucified.

 

[Guojing]

not sure what your point is. i feel i have proven that a baby has to be taught correctly in order to become a proper adult. if you think its all a free gift then there would be no reason for Jesus to teach or do anything, why not just send the free gift from the heavens. there is more to it than Jesus coming to this world and getting crucified.

A baby has everything provided for him freely, his crib, his clothes, his food. He can expect his parents to feed him, to make sure he is cured of any diseases, etc, without having to work for it, nor does he need to claim by faith.

All these are the free favors of his parents to him. Do we think of God any less? You want God to teach a baby correctly when us parents don’t even do that?

 

[jaybird88]

A baby has everything provided for him freely, his crib, his clothes, his food. He can expect his parents to feed him, to make sure he is cured of any diseases, etc, without having to work for it, nor does he need to claim by faith.

All these are the free favors of his parents to him. Do we think of God any less? You want God to teach a baby correctly when us parents don’t even do that?

a baby is taught as soon as possible, eating food, going to bathroom, talking, walking. im sorry but your argument is proving my point.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

no works believer proclaims they do not need Jesus, they just believe Jesus is the way.
there is no law of sin, unless your taling about something written by Alister Crowley, sin is a result of breaking the law

Yes,I have not heard a works salvationist say that they don't need JESUS,I don't think I have ever heard ANYONE say that,but I do think they think that GOD will judge one sin bigger than some other sin trying to make GOD equal to thinking the way a man would think.

 

[so-jesus-e-deus]

We are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus:

• "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2.8,9).

And His works in us confirm that this salvation happened in our innermost:

• "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2.21-22),

Let it be clear: it is His works in us, not ours, that save.

 

[NayborBear]

i agree, people are always looking for that backdoor loophole to get out of doing the work. they dont want to hear about the gate being narrow.

Agreed! They take everything "externally." Thinking every thing, little, and large, internally, is given, as soon as they believe.
Everything Adam had was "given." See how that played out, eh?
People must think God the Father be some kinda stupid to think He gonna keep doing the same thing time after time, and expect a different result!
Jeremiah 4
22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish (STUPID) children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
To me? This is an emotion of the Father in Lament!

(one should find "interesting" reading of the rest of the chapter)

Haggai 1
2 Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, This people say, The time is not come, the time that the Lord's house should be built.
3 Then came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet, saying,
4 Is it time for you, O ye, to dwell in your cieled houses, and this house lie waste?
5 Now therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts; Consider your ways.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

i call it work because the example you provided is work. grace only is one person doing nothing while the other person does the work.

That's what I have been trying to tell you about work.Work Is done by the REBORN Christian,It's called renewing the mind as you walk on this planet but GOD looked at your HEART when you got saved and this required believing the WORD of GOD on your part and did not require works,just like the thief on the cross believed for salvation and did not have to do physical work to receive salvation.