Free Grace or Faith and Works?

[Grandpa]

What is meant by "Gods free Grace"?

Sounds like someone who would use this term doesn't know what Grace really is. I definitely wouldn't call it free.

Priceless doesn't infer free does it? There is art that is priceless. But its not free.


You could say its free because you didn't pay for it.

I would say its priceless because you COULDN'T pay for it even if you wanted to.


So if we could change that to Gods Priceless Grace that is what I would choose.

 

[Jackson123]

What is meant by "Gods free Grace"?

Sounds like someone who would use this term doesn't know what Grace really is. I definitely wouldn't call it free.

Priceless doesn't infer free does it? There is art that is priceless. But its not free.


You could say its free because you didn't pay for it.

I would say its priceless because you COULDN'T pay for it even if you wanted to.


So if we could change that to Gods Priceless Grace that is what I would choose.

Some people believe salvation by grace mean you can do what ever you want, free sex, rob the bank, killing every day, as long as you believe Jesus you are save

Salvation by grace not by work

 

[jaybird88]

Some people believe salvation by grace mean you can do what ever you want, free sex, rob the bank, killing every day, as long as you believe Jesus you are save

Salvation by grace not by work

no work does mean you can do all that.

 

[NayborBear]

Well obviously it's our faith. Not questioning that. The question is where did that faith come from that you have? Here are the verses again with all the words.
Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it isthe gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

So to reiterate the AND THAT signifies the faith he just said. We don't need to know that Grace is a gift because the very word itself tells us that it is a gift.

Curious brother.

Why does it bother you to think that YOUR faith is a gift from God?

And here I've been wrong all these years. Being taught that Faith is a fruit "OF the Spirit."
But, "who's" Spirit? Can't be the gift of the Holy Spirit. As the "believer", is just starting to believe, and is not, as yet accepted Jesus Christ, or been baptized.
Then WHERE?
Have you not heard, nor read, in the O.T., that "LIFE", is "in the blood?" And, if such life is in the "animals" that were being used as sacrifices? There is no such same "life" in our blood as well? Are you "dumber then a box of rocks?"
Job 27
Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
3 All the while my breath is in me, and the "spirit of God" is in my nostrils;
4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
Seems Job knew it!
Job 33
4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

Matthew 12
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Even Jesus knows it!
Mark 9
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell IN you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ(?), he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you (one should note here, that it wasn't Jesus who raised himself from the dead), he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

I could go on.....AND on. The POINT being? There ARE "Angels" watching us, as well watching OVER every living breathing man, woman, child, son, daughter, husband, wife, yada yada yada, who "signal" God's Spirit, EVERY TIME, one of us humans (I am speaking of UNbelievers here), does some act attributable TOWARDS RIGHTEOUSNESS!
It IS, at this time when "measures" of Mercy and Grace are "afforded/awarded" unto said human, BECAUSE of "the act!"
Christ is not even "entered into the "picture", so to speak.
This is "seen" by others, as "unmerited favor" (grace). But? It isn't! It IS, however "STEPPING STONES" TOWARDS faith!
1 Corinthians 3
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I ask all of you, as Passover is fast approaching. That "this time?"
Dwell MORE on He who raised Jesus from the dead, then He, who was RAISED from the dead!
As He who raised Christ from the dead? Lead the children of Israel OUT of bondage and slavery!
Habakkuk 1
The burden which Habakkuk the prophet did see.
2 O Lord, how long shall I cry, and thou wilt not hear! even cry out unto thee of violence, and thou wilt not save!
3 Why dost thou shew me iniquity, and cause me to behold grievance? for spoiling and violence are before me: and there are that raise up strife and contention.
4 Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.
Haggai 1
6 Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.
7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; CONSIDER YOUR WAYS (!).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some people believe salvation by grace mean you can do what ever you want, free sex, rob the bank, killing every day, as long as you believe Jesus you are save

Salvation by grace not by work

From what I see. The on;y people who believe this are the legalists who are attacking Grace, and trying to add works.

I have yet to meet anyone who is truly a grace believer who think those things are ok, and you can live however you want and get away with it..

 

[Jackson123]

From what I see. The on;y people who believe this are the legalists who are attacking Grace, and trying to add works.

I have yet to meet anyone who is truly a grace believer who think those things are ok, and you can live however you want and get away with it..

In my church some people think: because salvation by grace so if you kill or rob, you only lose your relationship with God, but you save, because salvation by grace not by work.

Let me tell you what I believe one more time.

Salvation is by grace alone not by work

But I agree with Martin Luther: faith that save never alone.

Some people forget that bible teach the correlation between salvation and work of love.

Salvation come when we have faith in Jesus

What is faith in Jesus mean?

Faith in Jesus is entrusted in Jesus to the point to let Jesus take over our will.

Paul entrust Jesus to the point that he fell no longer Him but Jesus in Him that live

Galatians 2:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


And I never believe Christ in Paul ask him to kill or rob the bank.

So if a man say have faith in Christ and rob the bank as his job, he is liar, he do not have Christ in his heart and .not save.

Not that we are perfect like what God want us to be

1 Peter 1:15-17 King James Version (KJV)

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

We not Holy yet but at least we want to be Holy, we have desire to learn to be Holy.

Unsave do not want to learn to be Holy and do not want to abide in Him.
so I believe both save and unsave are not Holy, the different is save invite Jesus than learn to be Holy, unsave either do not want to be Holy or want to be Holy but not invite Jesus to help them to be holy

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In my church some people think: because salvation by grace so if you kill or rob, you only lose your relationship with God, but you save, because salvation by grace not by work.

Let me tell you what I believe one more time.

Salvation is by grace alone not by work

But I agree with Martin Luther: faith that save never alone.

Some people forget that bible teach the correlation between salvation and work of love.

Salvation come when we have faith in Jesus

What is faith in Jesus mean?

Faith in Jesus is entrusted in Jesus to the point to let Jesus take over our will.

Paul entrust Jesus to the point that he fell no longer Him but Jesus in Him that live

Galatians 2:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


And I never believe Christ in Paul ask him to kill or rob the bank.

So if a man say have faith in Christ and rob the bank as his job, he is liar, he do not have Christ in his heart and .not save.

Not that we are perfect like what God want us to be

1 Peter 1:15-17 King James Version (KJV)

15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

We not Holy yet but at least we want to be Holy, we have desire to learn to be Holy.

Unsave do not want to learn to be Holy and do not want to abide in Him.
so I believe both save and unsave are not Holy, the different is save invite Jesus than learn to be Holy, unsave either do not want to be Holy or want to be Holy but not invite Jesus to help them to be holy

Why are you so focused on certain sins Are you perfect? If your answer is no, What sins do you commit?

Then, why do you think you can do YOUR sin and still be saved, and they can not do Their sin and not be saved?

I agree, Faith is never workless.

But I also know. Faith is never sinless.

Do you kick your kids out of your family when they commit certain sins?

 

[Jackson123]

Why are you so focused on certain sins Are you perfect? If your answer is no, What sins do you commit?

Then, why do you think you can do YOUR sin and still be saved, and they can not do Their sin and not be saved?

I agree, Faith is never workless.

But I also know. Faith is never sinless.

Do you kick your kids out of your family when they commit certain sins?

Do I say I am perfect? No

Do I say other not save and only me save no.

I say salvation is by faith, and when we have faith in Jesus, we ask Jesus come to be our leader to help us to love, not to rob.

If a rober ask Jesus come to his heart, it that make him stop robing? Yes

But he may fail and rob again, as long as he fell guilty and ask forgiveness I believe hesave.

Say before repent he rob every week, after repent he may rob every 2 week but every time he robe he fell sorry and ask forgiveness and I believe God will forgive him.

I do. Not know why you accused me focuse on certain sin. Can you prove your causation please?

Or do you believe after accepting Jesus you do not bear the fruit?

If so you not agree with Jesus, Jesus say the fruit tell what kind of tree.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do I say I am perfect? No

Do I say other not save and only me save no.

I say salvation is by faith, and when we have faith in Jesus, we ask Jesus come to be our leader to help us to love, not to rob.

If a rober ask Jesus come to his heart, it that make him stop robing? Yes

Maybe, Some habits are so deep and so strong, it takes awhile to overcome them

But he may fail and rob again, as long as he fell guilty and ask forgiveness I believe he-save

But if he does not. He is not saved, Which basically proves my point.

Say before repent he rob every week, after repent he may rob every 2 week but every time he robe he fell sorry and ask forgiveness and I believe God will forgive him.

I do. Not know why you accused me focuse on certain sin. Can you prove your causation please?

Or do you believe after accepting Jesus you do not bear the fruit?

If so you not agree with Jesus, Jesus say the fruit tell what kind of tree.

Do you believe everyone will bear much fruit? Do you believe everyone will stop being what Paul called “babes” in Christ

You were saying a person who does this sin CAN:T be a child of God. (You words were, HE IS A LIAR AND HE CAN”T HAVE CHRIST IN HIS HEART AND NOT SAVED)

My point was. You admit you stil sin, so why can he NOT be a child but you CAN be.

 

[Jackson123]

Maybe, Some habits are so deep and so strong, it takes awhile to overcome them




But if he does not. He is not saved, Which basically proves my point.

I

Do you believe everyone will bear much fruit? Do you believe everyone will stop being what Paul called “babes” in Christ

You were saying a person who does this sin CAN:T be a child of God. (You words were, HE IS A LIAR AND HE CAN”T HAVE CHRIST IN HIS HEART AND NOT SAVED)

My point was. You admit you stil sin, so why can he NOT be a child but you CAN be.

I am a sinner, yes it is.

But can sinner bear fruit? I believe so.

What happen if branch not bear fruit?

Let see what Jesus say

John 15

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Verse 5

He that abide in Jesus bear fruit.

To me abide in Jesus mean have faith in Jesus, I believe Jesus never lie, He that abide in Him will bear fruit.

Seem to me you not agree with Jesus, it is your problem, but I agree with Jesus.

Verse 6.

Seem to me if a man not abide in Him will not bear fruit and be burn in fire.

To me be burn in fire mean go to hell.

Seem to m you believe be burn in fire mean go to heaven. If you believe burn in fire mean go to heaven, that is your problem, but to me burn in fire mean go to hell.

What about baby Christian, are there not change?

I am a baby Christian but if I do sin, I fell guilty and ask forgiveness.

Living baby is life not death. It may not walk properly but they are breath.

Like a living branch, it may not bear perfect fruit but Jesus say if the branch abide in Him. It will bear fruit

When Jesus say you tell the tree by it fruit what is that mean to you.

I believe you interprate as, child of God will bear bad fruit like an unsaved. There are no different between child of God and unsave.

To me Jesus mean by that verse is

Child of God will bear loving fruit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am a sinner, yes it is.

But can sinner bear fruit? I believe so.

What happen if branch not bear fruit?

Let see what Jesus say

John 15

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Verse 5

He that abide in Jesus bear fruit.

To me abide in Jesus mean have faith in Jesus, I believe Jesus never lie, He that abide in Him will bear fruit.

Seem to me you not agree with Jesus, it is your problem, but I agree with Jesus.

Verse 6.

Seem to me if a man not abide in Him will not bear fruit and be burn in fire.

To me be burn in fire mean go to hell.

Seem to m you believe be burn in fire mean go to heaven. If you believe burn in fire mean go to heaven, that is your problem, but to me burn in fire mean go to hell.

What about baby Christian, are there not change?

I am a baby Christian but if I do sin, I fell guilty and ask forgiveness.

Living baby is life not death. It may not walk properly but they are breath.

Like a living branch, it may not bear perfect fruit but Jesus say if the branch abide in Him. It will bear fruit

When Jesus say you tell the tree by it fruit what is that mean to you.

I believe you interprate as, child of God will bear bad fruit like an unsaved. There are no different between child of God and unsave.

To me Jesus mean by that verse is

Child of God will bear loving fruit.

Fruit bearing is a process of sanctification. There are great fruit bearers (also known as spiritually mature believers) and there are low fruit bearers (some may not produce any fruit at all) called baby christians.

But ALL of them are christians. All of them have been justified

Your mixing justification (eternal life the righteousness of christ imputed to you) with sanctification (Christian growth) and that is a false gospel of works.

 

[Jackson123]

Fruit bearing is a process of sanctification. There are great fruit bearers (also known as spiritually mature believers) and there are low fruit bearers (some may not produce any fruit at all) called baby christians.

But ALL of them are christians. All of them have been justified

Your mixing justification (eternal life the righteousness of christ imputed to you) with sanctification (Christian growth) and that is a false gospel of works.

So you believe a branch that abide in vine not bear fruit

Seem to me you not agree with Jesus

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Seem to me in verse 5 Jesus say if a branch abide in Him bear fruit

And you believe a branch that abide in Jesus may not bear fruit, that is false gospel, there is not say in that verse that branch that abide in Him may not bear fruit.

I agree with Jesus and you accused me believe salvation by work.

That is false, you confuse between fruit of salvation and requirement of salvation.

Let me repeat what Martin Luther say

For salvation, we need faith alone, but faith that saved never alone.

Martin Luther not agree with catholic because save by work, yet he say faith that save never alone, because faith bear fruit exactly like what Jesus say. Your believe is against Jesus and Martin Luther.

You accuse Martin and Jesus false teacher

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you believe a branch that abide in vine not bear fruit

Seem to me you not agree with Jesus

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Seem to me in verse 5 Jesus say if a branch abide in Him bear fruit

And you believe a branch that abide in Jesus may not bear fruit, that is false gospel, there is not say in that verse that branch that abide in Him may not bear fruit.

I agree with Jesus and you accused me believe salvation by work.

That is false, you confuse between fruit of salvation and requirement of salvation.

Let me repeat what Martin Luther say

For salvation, we need faith alone, but faith that saved never alone.

Martin Luther not agree with catholic because save by work, yet he say faith that save never alone, because faith bear fruit exactly like what Jesus say. Your believe is against Jesus and Martin Luther.

You accuse Martin and Jesus false teacher

Fruit bearing is for believers

If your not a believe you can not bear fruit

I believe what Jesus said

I do not believe that works or lack of works causes or loses salvation.

Thats trust in SELF. Not trust in CHRIST

The passages you gace is God telling believers how to grow and produce fruit. Not telling nbon believers how to be saved or keep their salvation.

 

[Jackson123]

Fruit bearing is for believers

If your not a believe you can not bear fruit

I believe what Jesus said

I do not believe that works or lack of works causes or loses salvation.

Thats trust in SELF. Not trust in CHRIST

The passages you gace is God telling believers how to grow and produce fruit. Not telling nbon believers how to be saved or keep their salvation.

Believer can not produce the fruit, only bear.

That verse say if branch not bear fruit will be burn, or go to hell or not save.

It not mean bear fruit rips the requirement of salvation.

You confused between fruit of salvation and the requirement of salvation.

The requirement of salvation is faith alone, not fruit or work.

But salvation bear fruit,


One more time

Fruit is not the requirement of salvation

Fruit is by product of faith.


Abraham have faith in God

What is the fruit of his faith? He obey God to go to the promise land.

Is he perfect? No

Is He bear fruit? Yes, the fruit is he obey God command to go to promise land.

Noah have faith in God

The fruit is he obey God by building the ark.

Why he save from flood? Because he believe in God

And Building ark is the fruit of His faith in God

 

[GHClarkII]

I must say that the more I read these the sadder I become. The question was quite simple: how are we justified before God? Asked a different way, how does God declare that we are righteous? He does so on the ground of the shed blood of Christ that covers our sin and his fulfilling of the law that is our righteousness. All of this is a free gift to His people, a result of His grace and good pleasure. No works. Period. Faith isn't something we do that meets God in the middle, faith is a gift. Ephesians 1 and 2 makes this abundantly clear.

To think of all the men and women, saints of God, that gave their lives to separate the true church from Rome 500 years ago and so many people still think that Jesus fails to save most of the people he dies for and that we must do something to earn our salvation. God rescued His gospel of free Grace from Roman paganism and here we are half a millennia later having to fight for it again.......

Soli Deo Gloria
May God be the Judge

 

[noblenut]

why do people thing Gods grace faith and works are exclusive, we are given eternal life from God, we receive this by having faith in him and we work for the salvation of others

 

[noblenut]

grace is something undeserved, salvation is being saved by another, sanctification is being made holy by God, and justification is what we do for God.

 

[Guojing]

If you steal, you may go to jail.
If you murder, you may get the death penalty.
If you commit adultery, you may face a divorce.

All these are good reasons why you should not commit those. Why would someone who believes he is saved by grace, ever want to do those deeds?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Believer can not produce the fruit, only bear.

That verse say if branch not bear fruit will be burn, or go to hell or not save.

It not mean bear fruit rips the requirement of salvation.

You confused between fruit of salvation and the requirement of salvation.

The requirement of salvation is faith alone, not fruit or work.

But salvation bear fruit,


One more time

Fruit is not the requirement of salvation

Fruit is by product of faith.


Abraham have faith in God

What is the fruit of his faith? He obey God to go to the promise land.

Is he perfect? No

Is He bear fruit? Yes, the fruit is he obey God command to go to promise land.

Noah have faith in God

The fruit is he obey God by building the ark.

Why he save from flood? Because he believe in God

And Building ark is the fruit of His faith in God

Oh boy

The bible also said the jews were the natural branches, and in unbelief they were cut off. While gentiles were grafted in.

It does not mean they lost salvation, It signifies who believes and who does not believe, And you can not attach yourself to the branch, You must be attached (by God himself)

As for being cast into the fire. Can men cast you to hell? Because that is what the passage says.

Showing me people who had true faith and bore fruit does not help you. We receive rewards for fruit bearing and Paul makes it clear. some will have ALL their rewards burnt and left in ash, Yet they themselves will be saved.

One more time, Your mixing justification (salvation) with sanctification (christian growth) and trying to make sanctification a means of salvation.

Thats not true.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

grace is something undeserved, salvation is being saved by another, sanctification is being made holy by God, and justification is what we do for God.

Can you explain that last part I bolded?

Thanks