Free will in the light of Romans 11:25?
- Thread starter crossnote
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
2 Corinthians 3 shows why Jews CAN'T come to Christ and why they are hardened against Him.
They have a vail over their hearts and minds. Meaning they don't understand Christ because of the Law of Moses.
They reject the doctrines of Christ because they don't understand. They can't understand because of the vail.
Since there are at least some Jews that come to Christ this should show that it is NOT because of free-will but because God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and hardens whom He will harden.
They have a vail over their hearts and minds. Meaning they don't understand Christ because of the Law of Moses.
They reject the doctrines of Christ because they don't understand. They can't understand because of the vail.
Since there are at least some Jews that come to Christ this should show that it is NOT because of free-will but because God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and hardens whom He will harden.
-
1
- Show all
Locoponydirtman said:
Free Will if good for one thing only; rejection, by our freewill we reject Christ even against the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Our will must be broken for us to repent, then as a broken and contrite soul, crushed from the weight of conviction for our sins we are given faith to believe. All the work of the Holy Spirit.
When the scale fall off your eyes and you then see, it is because the Holy Spirit removed them.
The proof is that we know that our actions are wrong yet we do it anyway. We know by the way we feel when we are wronged by others , we know by the times we promised to never do a thing again if we get out of the mess we caused.
We were all born under the law. We all thought that it was by our actions that we were blessed or punished.
A child needs that. Needs boundaries. Do this. Don't ever do that.
Galatians 4:3-5
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
The law of Moses says Do this and be blessed. Do this or Don't do that and be cursed. So EVERYONE at some point thinks that it is their PERFORMANCE that causes them to be blessed or to be cursed.
Those that argue for free will STILL DO!!
But when a person comes to Christ, by the Conviction of the Holy Spirit and the breaking of their free will, the vail of performance for blessing and cursing comes off. A person KNOWS that it was God who has Saved them and Changed them and it was NOT their "good" choices or their work at the law.
The bible backs all of this up.
Galatians 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The flesh says it is MY free will that causes me to be saved.
The Spirit says it is God who has mercy.
The flesh says it is MY free will that causes me to be blessed.
The Spirit says I am blessed through Christ.
The flesh says you will never have liberty but always will be governed by reaping what you sow according to the law.
The Spirit says Stand fast in the Liberty in which Christ has set us free and be NOT entangled again in the yoke of bondage.
Free Will if good for one thing only; rejection, by our freewill we reject Christ even against the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Our will must be broken for us to repent, then as a broken and contrite soul, crushed from the weight of conviction for our sins we are given faith to believe. All the work of the Holy Spirit.
When the scale fall off your eyes and you then see, it is because the Holy Spirit removed them.
The proof is that we know that our actions are wrong yet we do it anyway. We know by the way we feel when we are wronged by others , we know by the times we promised to never do a thing again if we get out of the mess we caused.
We were all born under the law. We all thought that it was by our actions that we were blessed or punished.
A child needs that. Needs boundaries. Do this. Don't ever do that.
Galatians 4:3-5
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
The law of Moses says Do this and be blessed. Do this or Don't do that and be cursed. So EVERYONE at some point thinks that it is their PERFORMANCE that causes them to be blessed or to be cursed.
Those that argue for free will STILL DO!!
But when a person comes to Christ, by the Conviction of the Holy Spirit and the breaking of their free will, the vail of performance for blessing and cursing comes off. A person KNOWS that it was God who has Saved them and Changed them and it was NOT their "good" choices or their work at the law.
The bible backs all of this up.
Galatians 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The flesh says it is MY free will that causes me to be saved.
The Spirit says it is God who has mercy.
The flesh says it is MY free will that causes me to be blessed.
The Spirit says I am blessed through Christ.
The flesh says you will never have liberty but always will be governed by reaping what you sow according to the law.
The Spirit says Stand fast in the Liberty in which Christ has set us free and be NOT entangled again in the yoke of bondage.
-
1
- Show all
Or why at first glance it would appear to be saying that??? It must be compared to all information regarding the words used?
The doctrine of name changing. I would think must be used to reveal the purposes of God used on many occasions especially with the word Israel....having a different reasoning .
I would think words must first be defined. Especially as it pertains to the word Israel. Misrepresenting it can only cause confusion, like the word Jew (inward outward) I believe. We walk by faith the inward.
The blindness in part would represent Jacob typified as a gentile . Gentile are those in need of salvation whether they are part of Israel an outward Jew after the flesh, or a inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ. Clarifying the Identity of the True Israel not seen the eternal (Romans 9:1-13)
Like David said in the Psalm11 : destroy the foundations of the doctrines of God. . . what can we who are working from the true foundations do?
That I think can be seen in the tongues doctrine or the water baptism .(sign gifts) Men desiring to walk by sight as if the kingdom of God did come by opening our eyes. . . but not the eyes of our new hearts .Its a new day both ways for the believer. His love has so awakened us to look to the green side of the grass .
Romans 11:24-26 King James Version (KJV)For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
To begin with God is no respecter of persons of flesh .
From one fleshly lump of clay the Potter created all the nations as families .
Jesus in respect to his own corrupted flesh informs us it profits for zero . When the Jewish disciples heard that they walked away in unbelief (no faith) it offended them .Nothing changes nothing. They did not mix faith(Hebrews4:1-4) in what they did hear just like the flesh of any nation. They received no sabbath rest
God is not served with human hands. That would seem to enough to know that partial hardening has nothing to do with the flesh of one nation over and above that of another. God does not owe the unbelieving Jew something for using them in parables and ceremonial laws. Believing as some do the first century reformation never occurred does not erase the fact as to what actually did occur and what it caused.
And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel,[f] for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,[g] saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”Genessis 32:24-30
The word Israel as to its original intended usage must defined even before we can look at Romans . It does not mean a outward Jew pertaining to the flesh .That was the name accredited to Jacob the deceiver as natural unconverted mankind.
Jacob represents a gentile or non converted called the evil generation, the generation of man..
Those Jacobs who do wrestles against flesh and blood (the things seen) have no faith needed to believe God.
It ( Jacob)was appointed to represent unconverted mankind. .Jews were used to represent all of mankind Jacobs and Israel .( believers and unbeleivers) God wrestling with the corrupted flesh of mankind and overcoming in the face or knowledge of God, as it is written
85 times God uses the two names (Jacob and Israel together ) to contrast or hide the spiritual understanding the gospel
It is not the children of the flesh (Jews) who are the children of God, but the children of the promise they are counted as offspring to include a Jew. No difference. Purifying the hearts of all nations by a work of his faith labor of His love working in us, to both will and do His good pleasure. We know no man after the flesh..
AGod has not rejected the few chosen Israelites (11:1-10)
The doctrine of name changing. I would think must be used to reveal the purposes of God used on many occasions especially with the word Israel....having a different reasoning .
I would think words must first be defined. Especially as it pertains to the word Israel. Misrepresenting it can only cause confusion, like the word Jew (inward outward) I believe. We walk by faith the inward.
The blindness in part would represent Jacob typified as a gentile . Gentile are those in need of salvation whether they are part of Israel an outward Jew after the flesh, or a inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ. Clarifying the Identity of the True Israel not seen the eternal (Romans 9:1-13)
Like David said in the Psalm11 : destroy the foundations of the doctrines of God. . . what can we who are working from the true foundations do?
That I think can be seen in the tongues doctrine or the water baptism .(sign gifts) Men desiring to walk by sight as if the kingdom of God did come by opening our eyes. . . but not the eyes of our new hearts .Its a new day both ways for the believer. His love has so awakened us to look to the green side of the grass .
Romans 11:24-26 King James Version (KJV)For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
To begin with God is no respecter of persons of flesh .
From one fleshly lump of clay the Potter created all the nations as families .
Jesus in respect to his own corrupted flesh informs us it profits for zero . When the Jewish disciples heard that they walked away in unbelief (no faith) it offended them .Nothing changes nothing. They did not mix faith(Hebrews4:1-4) in what they did hear just like the flesh of any nation. They received no sabbath rest
God is not served with human hands. That would seem to enough to know that partial hardening has nothing to do with the flesh of one nation over and above that of another. God does not owe the unbelieving Jew something for using them in parables and ceremonial laws. Believing as some do the first century reformation never occurred does not erase the fact as to what actually did occur and what it caused.
And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel,[f] for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel,[g] saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.”Genessis 32:24-30
The word Israel as to its original intended usage must defined even before we can look at Romans . It does not mean a outward Jew pertaining to the flesh .That was the name accredited to Jacob the deceiver as natural unconverted mankind.
Jacob represents a gentile or non converted called the evil generation, the generation of man..
Those Jacobs who do wrestles against flesh and blood (the things seen) have no faith needed to believe God.
It ( Jacob)was appointed to represent unconverted mankind. .Jews were used to represent all of mankind Jacobs and Israel .( believers and unbeleivers) God wrestling with the corrupted flesh of mankind and overcoming in the face or knowledge of God, as it is written
85 times God uses the two names (Jacob and Israel together ) to contrast or hide the spiritual understanding the gospel
It is not the children of the flesh (Jews) who are the children of God, but the children of the promise they are counted as offspring to include a Jew. No difference. Purifying the hearts of all nations by a work of his faith labor of His love working in us, to both will and do His good pleasure. We know no man after the flesh..
AGod has not rejected the few chosen Israelites (11:1-10)
My opinion is that we would always feel like second rate citizens in the kingdom of God if physical, fleshly Israel were chosen first and then we get the crumbs.
But the Lord has made sure that we are at least equals in His Eyes.
This is only opinion.
My real answer would just be 'I don't really know'. Gods Plan. Gods Purpose.
But the Lord has made sure that we are at least equals in His Eyes.
This is only opinion.
My real answer would just be 'I don't really know'. Gods Plan. Gods Purpose.
-
1
- Show all
Scripture please.
Saved Gentiles are not inward Jews, and if you think so... Scripture please.
Yes, foundations are destroyed when we redefine words through the process of spiritualizing the text just as you are doing.
OK, so why is there a partial hardness/blindness upon this Israel that is NOT AFTER THE FLESH (acc. to your def.)??? Rom 11:25
By your own definition you have set a trap which reveals the fallacy of your redefining words.
Again, you are in serious error. Chaps 9-11 is dealing with the Jews and what is to become of them in light of the Gospel. It is not focusing on on so called spiritual Israel Gentiles and carnal Jews. Read carefully chaps 9-11.
You are trying to make a case from this...
Romans 9:6-10 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
All this is saying is that of those who are through the natural seed of Abraham>Isaac> Jacob, who also believe are the children of promise. It has little to do with believing Gentiles as they are not even mentioned until vs.17 under a bit different context.
I don't know who has confused you on this matter but I would suggest you read very carefully chaps 9-11 several times in hopes that some matters can be cleared up for you.
Saved Gentiles are not inward Jews, and if you think so... Scripture please.
Yes, foundations are destroyed when we redefine words through the process of spiritualizing the text just as you are doing.
OK, so why is there a partial hardness/blindness upon this Israel that is NOT AFTER THE FLESH (acc. to your def.)??? Rom 11:25
By your own definition you have set a trap which reveals the fallacy of your redefining words.
Again, you are in serious error. Chaps 9-11 is dealing with the Jews and what is to become of them in light of the Gospel. It is not focusing on on so called spiritual Israel Gentiles and carnal Jews. Read carefully chaps 9-11.
You are trying to make a case from this...
Romans 9:6-10 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
All this is saying is that of those who are through the natural seed of Abraham>Isaac> Jacob, who also believe are the children of promise. It has little to do with believing Gentiles as they are not even mentioned until vs.17 under a bit different context.
I don't know who has confused you on this matter but I would suggest you read very carefully chaps 9-11 several times in hopes that some matters can be cleared up for you.
Define the word Jacob and Israel as to the meaning of the new born again name representing one who wrestles with flesh and blood. it is important to understanding the meaning of word before we us them.
Israel no more replaces Jacob then does the gentiles replace Israel or the newer name Christian he named His bride in Acts, God is in the business of changing names for certain purposes to reflect the good news.. . .
Why do you suppose he changed the name . Didn't like how it sounded?
Israel is a not a name used to identify a certain flesh of a Jew as one outwardly not born of the Spirit of Christ any more than is the name Abraham ...the father of a multitude of nations ...represent one nation rather than many
What the foundation that use when looking at the word Israel ?
Israel no more replaces Jacob then does the gentiles replace Israel or the newer name Christian he named His bride in Acts, God is in the business of changing names for certain purposes to reflect the good news.. . .
Why do you suppose he changed the name . Didn't like how it sounded?
Israel is a not a name used to identify a certain flesh of a Jew as one outwardly not born of the Spirit of Christ any more than is the name Abraham ...the father of a multitude of nations ...represent one nation rather than many
What the foundation that use when looking at the word Israel ?
My view...the human race stands in one man.....there is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ....the two have become ONE........there is but one HUMAN RACE and we are ALL in the same boat......God offered it to the JEWS first and they rejected....now it is the Gentiles turn.....soon the JEWS will have their chance and a remnant will embrace.....and lest we forget....GENTILES in the O.T. had opportunity.....the law covers them and the law of the Kinsman Redeemer...........
-
2
- Show all