Free Will verses Fate/Divine Intervention: Judas Iscariot "free will" verses Saul/Paul "fate"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
1,022
613
113
Texas
#81
Really just come down to the word nomen which simply means "name."

Add the prefix De, which means; from or of.

You get denominate to name those coming out from

Add the suffix Al which means something like; act of

So you get some thing like the naming of those who come out from.

In a large group you will have those who come out from the one group and form another group or a denomination, and they will rename themselves something related.


I hope that helps a little.

Maybe I'm not real got at explaining that stuff
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
252
94
28
#82
i mean, God intervenes. God chooses to do so.
if i choose something, and God intervenes, then whose choice or will comes out on top, mine or His?
He can & does surely prevent me from doing things my heart would do, if it were unrestrained. and He compels me to do things that left to myself, i wouldn't.


so it's another central paradox in this topic: if man has will, God does too. and if God acts, does His action over-rule man's will? some people say 'oh He's perfect gentleman, He would never' -- but i don't see that borne out in scripture, or in my life: not as an absolute. sometimes He gives us 'enough rope' and sometimes He ropes us back in, too.

so if you've got God intervening - and you do - then you've got God affecting what man sees as his own choice. we love, because He first loved us. without that He took that first step, initiating in us a work, would we even be able to love, at all?
God sovereignly chooses to intervene. A man sovereignly chooses how he's going to respond to that intervention. Intervention and response are two entirely different things, therefore one choice doesn't "come out on top" of the other. Both choices have 100% success in being made.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,326
5,258
113
#83
God sovereignly chooses to intervene. A man sovereignly chooses how he's going to respond to that intervention. Intervention and response are two entirely different things, therefore one choice doesn't "come out on top" of the other. Both choices have 100% success in being made.
in·ter·vene
/ˌin(t)ərˈvēn/

verb

  1. come between so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events.


this is the definition we are using?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,326
5,258
113
#84
God sovereignly chooses to intervene. A man sovereignly chooses how he's going to respond to that intervention. Intervention and response are two entirely different things, therefore one choice doesn't "come out on top" of the other. Both choices have 100% success in being made.
does this proverb relate to man's choices of and God's intervention?

Many are the plans in a person's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

(Proverbs 19:21)
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
252
94
28
#85
in·ter·vene
/ˌin(t)ərˈvēn/

verb
  1. come between so as to prevent or alter a result or course of events.


this is the definition we are using?
That's how I understand it. Note that the will isn't a "result" or a "course of events". therefore intervention doesn't alter the human will. It simply removes the choice-options that were available to the will. That same unaltered free will now has new choice-options to sovereignly decide upon until a new intervention occurs.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
252
94
28
#86
does this proverb relate to man's choices of and God's intervention?

Many are the plans in a person's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
(Proverbs 19:21)
There's no altering of the person's will in this verse. A person's plans and a person's will aren't the same thing.
 
Jul 22, 2019
189
36
28
#87
Really just come down to the word nomen which simply means "name."

Add the prefix De, which means; from or of.

You get denominate to name those coming out from

Add the suffix Al which means something like; act of

So you get some thing like the naming of those who come out from.

In a large group you will have those who come out from the one group and form another group or a denomination, and they will rename themselves something related.


I hope that helps a little.

Maybe I'm not real got at explaining that stuff
You explained just fine and actually I've never attempted to find the origin of the word denominational so this was informative as well, I can't remember where I heard or read the little blurb I attach to denominational; I just think it suits the word. There are 2 billion Christians worldwide and this post would be too long for me to list all the Christian religions, Churches and shall we say sects that claim religious standing???? If you belong to Christ's body you are a member of his Church.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,326
5,258
113
#88
There's no altering of the person's will in this verse. A person's plans and a person's will aren't the same thing.
there is here, tho, isn't there?

the king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water:
He turneth it whithersoever He will.

(Proverbs 21:1)
and here?

it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:13)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,326
5,258
113
#89
there is here, tho, isn't there?

the king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water:
He turneth it whithersoever He will.
(Proverbs 21:1)
and here?

it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:13)

Also, the power of God was on the people in Judah to give them one heart to obey the command of the king and his officials according to the word of the LORD.
(2 Chronicles 30:12)
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,964
295
83
#90
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
Lucifer was created perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him, because God gave the angels a choice, and some rebelled.

God made man upright, but they sought out many inventions, and Adam and Eve were created knowing God, and having a relationship with Him, and God created them in the image that He would show up in the future, for Adam was made in the image of God, and the New Testament says Adam was made in the figure of Him to come who is Jesus.

But God gave them a choice which is why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the garden.

Many are called but few are chosen, so God calls a person, and chooses them on earth.

God's kingdom is true love so there is a choice, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject truth, so God choosing without our choice goes against the nature of God.

If we do not have a choice then God would of not created the earth, for the earth serves no purpose without choice, for God would of created people to be with Him directly, and the result would be the same for they do not participate in their salvation.

The fact we have to have faith is testimony that we have a choice, and God commands all people everywhere to repent.

Predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan to give the world salvation before he laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if they have salvation in the beginning, which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

But this salvation is to whoever wants that salvation, for God wants all people to repent, acknowledge the truth, and be saved, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation, and Jesus lights every person born in this world.

Also God is no respecter of persons, and the Bible says what makes you to differ from another person, and there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

So God views all people the same as a sinner in need of salvation, and if the people that say God chose them without their choice are a sinner like everybody else then why would God chose them, and not others if all are sinners, and God is no respecter of persons.

No person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

God chose us we did not choose Him.

When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, but when they get to the door of truth they have to go through it, for God's kingdom is love, but no person would of gotten to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life when He called them.

And this truth is to abstain from sin by the Spirit, for the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

But some do not go through the door of truth, for some are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, by denying the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

A person can blaspheme against the Son, the flesh, the man Christ Jesus, but cannot blaspheme against the Spirit.

Paul did not blaspheme against God, but went against the man Christ Jesus believing He was not the Messiah, and when Jesus got a hold of him then he followed Jesus believing He was Lord and Savior.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
1,022
613
113
Texas
#91
You explained just fine and actually I've never attempted to find the origin of the word denominational so this was informative as well, I can't remember where I heard or read the little blurb I attach to denominational; I just think it suits the word. There are 2 billion Christians worldwide and this post would be too long for me to list all the Christian religions, Churches and shall we say sects that claim religious standing???? If you belong to Christ's body you are a member of his Church.
Correct and being a member of a denomination doesn't deny or refute the belonging to one body, necessarily. It may and usually is a way of identifying this group at this location as this part of the body.
I go to the congregation in Grangerland. Grangerland first Baptist.
 
Jul 22, 2019
189
36
28
#92
Lucifer was created perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him, because God gave the angels a choice, and some rebelled.

God made man upright, but they sought out many inventions, and Adam and Eve were created knowing God, and having a relationship with Him, and God created them in the image that He would show up in the future, for Adam was made in the image of God, and the New Testament says Adam was made in the figure of Him to come who is Jesus.

But God gave them a choice which is why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was in the garden.

Many are called but few are chosen, so God calls a person, and chooses them on earth.

God's kingdom is true love so there is a choice, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject truth, so God choosing without our choice goes against the nature of God.

If we do not have a choice then God would of not created the earth, for the earth serves no purpose without choice, for God would of created people to be with Him directly, and the result would be the same for they do not participate in their salvation.

The fact we have to have faith is testimony that we have a choice, and God commands all people everywhere to repent.

Predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan to give the world salvation before he laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if they have salvation in the beginning, which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

But this salvation is to whoever wants that salvation, for God wants all people to repent, acknowledge the truth, and be saved, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation, and Jesus lights every person born in this world.

Also God is no respecter of persons, and the Bible says what makes you to differ from another person, and there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile, and if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

So God views all people the same as a sinner in need of salvation, and if the people that say God chose them without their choice are a sinner like everybody else then why would God chose them, and not others if all are sinners, and God is no respecter of persons.

No person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

God chose us we did not choose Him.

When God calls a person He will work in their life to get them to the truth, but when they get to the door of truth they have to go through it, for God's kingdom is love, but no person would of gotten to the door of truth unless God intervened in their life when He called them.

And this truth is to abstain from sin by the Spirit, for the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

But some do not go through the door of truth, for some are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, by denying the power thereof, ever learning and never able to come to the truth.

A person can blaspheme against the Son, the flesh, the man Christ Jesus, but cannot blaspheme against the Spirit.

Paul did not blaspheme against God, but went against the man Christ Jesus believing He was not the Messiah, and when Jesus got a hold of him then he followed Jesus believing He was Lord and Savior.
Thank-you, your response is appreciated, You speak of a "truth" that a man of GOD must decide to come to and describe it as "And this truth is to abstain from sin by the Spirit, " I have this question,
Why then would you or any who agree with these teachings ever wonder why young Christians today ask if they can be saved through works when this is what you teach?
LOVE in our Lord Jesus the Christ
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
252
94
28
#93
there is here, tho, isn't there?

the king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water:
He turneth it whithersoever He will.
(Proverbs 21:1)
No, the heart is distinct from the will. It doesn't say that God alters the king's will into something it's not. The king's heart has been diverted but his will can still freely choose between whatever A's and B's are being submitted to it.​
and here?
it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:13)
There's no altering of the Christian's will in this verse. The will continues to freely function in choice-making. "To will" is a verb. "The will" is a noun. "To will for His good pleasure" isn't a guaranteed result of God's working in you if "the will" chooses to disobey the previous phrase; "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". Otherwise Holy Spirit indwelt Christians would/could never sin.​
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
3,884
4,362
113
#94
In my understanding God allowed satan to enter into Judas thus betraying Christ. It was for God's purpose and I speculate Him choosing Judas was because He knew he would not reject the evil One, thus making Him One of Satans and the obvious choice. Honestly, I do not know for sure, because His actions after sure point to repentance, lamenting and regret.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,326
5,258
113
#95
There's no altering of the Christian's will in this verse. The will continues to freely function in choice-making. "To will" is a verb. "The will" is a noun.
it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:13)

it is not talking about your will. it is talking about God's will. God is the acting subject in this verse, not you. you are the passive subject, in which God is at work, both in the willing and the doing, for God's own good pleasure.


do you believe God literally acts in a person who believes and trusts Him, conforming them to His image? or that God passively waits for a person to conform themselves?

 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,403
1,644
113
#96
Judas Iscariot was unrepentant of his sin of stealing from the money box this "choice" he made allowed Satan the ability to possess him so that he betrayed Jesus. The apostle Paul on the other hand was unrepentant about sinning against Christians, but Jesus knowing Paul's heart, devinely intervened and personally requested Paul to follow him. Any thoughts on whether salvation is a choice or fate?
This is the original post that started this thread.

I only want to point out one thing to everyone:
The biblical scenarios described in the OP simply give us no rational warrant for EITHER POSITION on free will.

It was truly a pointless post.
It neither proves nor disproves either position.


That's all.
Have fun.
:)
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
252
94
28
#97
it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
(Philippians 2:13)

it is not talking about your will. it is talking about God's will.
God works in this verse. The saint wills and works in this verse.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,326
5,258
113
#98
God works in this verse. The saint wills and works in this verse.

it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy
(Romans 9:16)

man in Philippians 2:13 is passive.
God in Philippians 2:13 is active.

we live in Him because we die in Him.
what kind of will does a dead man have?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
23,326
5,258
113
#99
the heart is distinct from the will.
each one, according as he doth purpose in heart,
not out of sorrow or out of necessity
(2 Corinthians 9:7)
Thou art trying the heart, and uprightness dost desire;
I, in the uprightness of my heart, have willingly offered all these
(1 Corinthians 29:17)
speak unto the children of Israel, that they take for Me an offering:
of every man whose heart maketh him willing ye shall take My offering.
(Exodus 25:2)
whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it,
an offering of the LORD
(Exodus 35:5)
the assembly brought sacrifices and thank offerings,
and all who were of a willing heart brought burnt offerings.
(2 Chronicles 29:21)
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,403
1,644
113
God works in this verse. The saint wills and works in this verse.
I am not a Calvinist, and I am personally convicted that man has some degree of volition.

But regardless of my general views, I agree ENTIRELY with posthuman on this specific verse.

Philippians 2:13 is strictly, and entirely, about nothing but the will of God.


If you look for something else in the verse... it just isn't there.


Now, I don't think this verse logically precludes any possible existence of human volition of any possible variety.
I just don't think that's what the verse says.
And the context surrounding the verse is actually an exhortation for christians to make a conscious decision to ACT in right ways.

Nonetheless, I completely agree with posthuman here, this verse is describing nothing but the will of God.
This is a beautiful verse about the power of God to work in fallen man, and to change us, and to keep us.
It is a beautiful and powerful verse... and there is just nothing described in this verse other than the will of God.
That is, quite simply, all the verse contains.

I didn't come into this thread to debate Calvinism and free will.
But ya know... sometimes a verse just says what it says.


You guys have fun.
I'll try to duck back out before the fireworks begin.
:)
..