FROM A CHRISTIAN TO A CATHOLIC

[trust_in_the_name]

How then are we to understand the scriptures? The scriptures themselves answer that question for us, as is discussed in the following article:

[SIZE=+3]Our Hermeneutics[/SIZE]

The Scripture cannot be broken. (John 10:35)

I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. (Acts 20:27)

You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it. (Deuteronomy 4:2; see also 12:32; Proverbs 30:5-6; Revelation 22:18-19)

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On occasion we are asked, "What is your hermeneutical approach to Scripture?" That is, what is our "method or principle of interpretation,"1 our "methodological principles"2 when interpreting the Bible? It is the same approach as Christ's, Paul's, and Moses'. It is a literal approach ("Scripture cannot be broken") with the whole counsel of God considered (i.e. all of the Bible), and it is a limited approach, neither adding to nor taking away from the text of Scripture.

[SIZE=+2]I. Literal[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+1]A. Scripture Cannot Be Broken.[/SIZE]​

When Christ is confronted by the Jews "for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God"3 in John 10:33, Jesus' response is quite profound.

Is it not written in your law, "I said, 'You are gods'"? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming," because I said, "I am the Son of God"? (John 10:34-36)
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What is Jesus' point when He says to them "and the Scripture cannot be broken"? What is He stressing? He is emphasizing that Scripture means what it says. In other words, when the Scripture "called them gods" it means what it says, "You are gods," just as it says. This is a very literal approach to Scripture.

You can see what Jesus meant regarding "the Scripture cannot be broken" via His argument. He was combating their claim of blasphemy, that is, that He was claiming to be God, and He argues, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods'?" So, Jesus' point in responding to the Jews is basically, "Your law calls men gods," as He continued, "If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came . . . ."​

So then, Jesus begins to take the air out of their ballooned blasphemy argument by pointing to the fact that Scripture calls men gods. He doesn't bother explaining this concept, or arguing that they aren't Gods as the one and only true God is God (Isaiah 31:3; 44:6-8).4 No, instead, He emphasizes the statement and dictates, when it says men are gods, it means they are gods,5 "the Scripture cannot be broken."​

This is the only honest approach to Scripture. It does not break (John 10:35) or destroy6 the text. Christ's "Scripture cannot be broken" statement, especially in the context in which He says it, reveals Christ's view of God's word. It is acutely7 literal, and this is the only perspective that saves.8​

[SIZE=+1]B. True Faith[/SIZE]​

Receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:21)
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How does one receive the word? By believing it. True faith in the Bible (the word, John 1:1) mandates a literal approach to Scripture. It must be taken for exactly what it says. It must be received. There is no other way to heed God's word. If one is to be found among the believing and not cast to the lake of fire with the "unbelieving" (Revelation 21:8), one must "obey the truth" (Romans 2:8). We must heed exactly what He says. There is no freedom to interpret His truth in any other way. As it is written,

no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20)9
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It is not for tradition to interpret the word for us (Colossians 2:8). It is not for the "wise" to tell us what it means (1 Corinthians 3:19-20). It is not for us to make it mean what we please (Isaiah 65:2). The text itself holds the authority of interpretation, and the interpretation must be what it actually says. In other words, the Bible means what it says, and says what it means, as Jesus well pointed out (John 10:34-36); and we are doomed to eternal torment if we consistently take it any other way (Matthew 7:24-27; Hebrews 4:12-13; Revelation 21:8; 22:14-15). God's word must be heeded (Proverbs 13:13).


Nevertheless, this is impossible with men (Mark 10:27), but not with God (Luke 18:27). True faith, and thus true honest literal interpretation, is unattainable with men left to themselves (Jeremiah 13:23).

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2:14)
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True faith is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:1-9), and the only way anyone can understand and therefore interpret the Word properly (literally) is via the anointing of God. With this anointing, although there is time and place for a teacher (James 3:1), there is no need for one. As it is written to those who believe (1 John 5:13),

These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 John 2:26-27; see also John 7:38-39; 14:26)
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[SIZE=+2]II. Whole Counsel[/SIZE]

I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. (Acts 20:27)
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True faith is "believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets" (Acts 24:14). True faith is believing "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4). One definition of Webster for "literal" is "according with the letter of the Scriptures".10 Psalm 36:9 says,

In Your light we see light.
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Since the authority of interpretation is in the text itself (in God Himself), then the text, the entire Bible, is its own interpreter. In other words, Scripture interprets Scripture. The light of one passage sheds light on another, with both standing true and meaning what they say, as Jesus said, "the Scripture cannot be broken". Obliterating ("breaking") one verse, in an attempt to hold to another verse, is destroying the text. In other words, when the truth of one passage is denied via the "truth" of another, the Scripture is thus broken (as in Matthew 5:19) and not rightly divided (2 Timothy 2:15).

A classic example of this is found within false Christianity when Romans 4 is pitted against James 2, and the truth of James 2 is denied (broken). For example, in his commentary on James 2:21-24 John MacArthur writes,​

That seeming contradiction, which has frustrated and confused believers throughout the history of the church, is clarified by understanding that justification by faith pertains to a person's standing before God, whereas the justification by works that James speaks of in this verse pertains to a person's standing before other men.
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Some have further imagined a contradiction between James's (sic) declaration that Abraham was justified by works and Paul's unequivocal teaching that he was justified solely by grace through faith (Rom. 4:1-25; Gal. 3:6-9). . . . James is teaching, then, that Abraham's willingness to offer Isaac vindicates his faith before men - . . . (The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, James, p, 137, copyright 1998, Moody Press, Chicago, bold in original, ellipsis added)

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When MacArthur writes "the justification by works that James speaks of in this verse pertains to a person's standing before other men," and "James is teaching, then, that Abraham's willingness to offer Isaac vindicates his faith before men," he breaks James 2 in a perverted favor towards Romans 4. Note the verses of which MacArthur speaks.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (James 2:21-24)
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Please read the passage to which James refers, Genesis 22. The only one watching is God. Even Abraham's men are left behind (Genesis 22:5). The entire passage is about "God tested Abraham" (Genesis 22:1) and God seeing, "now I know that you fear God" (Genesis 22:12).

James says, "faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect" (James 2:22) in the very event of Genesis 22, not later as men contemplate the passage, but right then and there, "faith was working together with his works." And note, "the Scripture was fulfilled." What Scripture? The earlier Scripture of Genesis 15:6 (Romans 4:3). In other words, James puts them both together (Genesis 15 & 22) showing "that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" and thus "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). In other words, true faith has works. If there are no works, there is no faith, and thus no righteousness and no salvation.

Some stumble over this "justified by works, and not by faith only," but it is a major theme in Scripture, as the Day of Judgment well testifies:

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But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned. (Matthew 12:36-37)
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Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29)​

God, who will render to each one according to his deeds, eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness - indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good (Romans 2:6-10).​

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. (Galatians 6:7-8; see also Psalm 15; 24:3-6; 50:22-23; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14; Revelation 22:14-15; etc.)​

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No true righteousness (right living) exists apart from faith in God's word (Romans 14:23), and no true faith in Christ (God's word) exists apart from true godly living (works, 1 John 2:4). Thus, on the Day of Judgment those who truly believe will be those who are justified by how they lived, and those who did not believe, though they may have claimed to, will be condemned by how they lived (e.g. Matthew 7:21-23). This is well illustrated in the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46. Both groups are judged entirely on how they lived. The sheep inherit the kingdom, and the goats eternal torment.

Now, if James 2 truly means exactly what it says, "that a man is justified by works" (James 2:24), then what is Romans 4 talking about?​

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (Romans 4:2)
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What's the implication and meaning of the surrounding context? Abraham was not justified by works. Abraham was one who did "not work" (Romans 4:5) and was found righteous "apart from works" (Romans 4:6). What's the difference between James 2 and Romans 4? The difference is in the works. The works of James 2 are works of faith, which obviously please God (e.g. Genesis 22). But the works of Romans 4 are works of the flesh.

In Romans, both before and after Romans 4, Paul explicitly speaks of this distinction between works of faith and works of the flesh. At the beginning of Romans, Paul writes of the gospel in which,

the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:17)
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Here are works of faith mentioned, as it says, "The just [i.e. the righteous] shall live by faith." In other words, godly people live, act, do, work, etc., all that they do by faith. These are those who are considered "just" before God.

In Romans Paul speaks of circumcision of the heart (faith) and circumcision in the flesh, in the Spirit (faith) and in the letter (flesh), inward (faith) and outward (flesh, Romans 2:25-29). He writes of "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (faith) and "the law of sin and death" (flesh, Romans 8:2). He writes of the spiritual mind (faith) and the fleshly mind (Romans 8:5-7). Paul's distinction is between works of faith and works of flesh, as Romans chapter 4 begins with,​

What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? (Romans 4:1)11
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Romans 8:8 says,

those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
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Works of the flesh are at enmity with God (Romans 8:7) and can never please Him (Hebrews 11:6). It doesn't matter what the work or deed is, if it is not of faith it is of the flesh and is sin (Romans 14:23; Proverbs 21:4). This is why "our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6), because they are not of faith. And, this is why "by the deeds of the law no flesh shall be justified" (Romans 3:20), because performing the requirements of the law without faith will not please God (Hebrews 11:6).

On the contrary, works of faith are works of the Spirit. They are the "work of God" (John 6:29; Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 5:22-23), and works of faith do please God (e.g. Hebrews 11:5). This is why Paul said he wanted to,​

be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith (Philippians 3:9).
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Our own righteousness is righteousness of the flesh, and produces nothing but death (Romans 8:6), because we cannot produce true godly righteousness (right living) on our own (Jeremiah 13:23). This is why we are saved "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5). Any and all who are saved are saved "by grace through faith" and that faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, in contrast to our own righteousness (our own good doing), which is righteousness of the flesh, God gives His righteousness to the believer, as it is written,

even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe (Romans 3:22).
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So, it comes down to how one is found righteous before God. Or, in other words, how one is justified before God. There is no righteousness and no justification in man's own efforts. There is righteousness and there is justification in God given faith, as Paul wrote, consistent with James,

For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13).
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Who are these doers of the law who will be justified? They are people of faith, as it is written,

For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)
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The law was weak through the flesh, because even if a man were to obey the commands in the law, if he didn't do it in faith, it would be absolutely worthless (Isaiah 64:6). Thus, fleshly obedience to the law was weak and did not produce the righteousness God requires. This was the Jews problem. They thought "to establish their own righteousness" (Romans 10:3) by keeping the law, but it was not by faith, but instead, by their own efforts in the flesh (Romans 9:30-32).12 Saul, likewise, was under this same folly (Philippians 3:4-6; 1 Timothy 1:13).

But now, those who are of faith actually do fulfill "the righteous requirement of the law" as Romans 8 says. They truly do live a godly, holy, righteous life, because Christ lives in them (Galatians 2:20) and Christ (love) fulfills the law (Galatians 5:14).​

Although "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), believers are,​

being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:24).
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They do "not work" (Romans 4:5), as Abraham didn't work, to be found righteous before God. They rest and cease from such efforts (Hebrews 4:10). Instead, they set their "hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to" them "at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13). Although they indeed are still in this sinful flesh (Romans 7:13-25; 1 John 1:8-10) and are not above stumbling (Psalm 37:24; Proverbs 24:16; James 3:2), they know "to those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation" (Hebrews 9:28).

Therefore, it can be seen that both James 2 and Romans 4 stand literally true as written, and when the whole counsel of God is considered, it is evident one speaks of works of faith, the other works of flesh. The one justifies, the other condemns (Romans 2:6-10).​

 

[DanuckInUSA]

Catholics are Christian. To insult and divide the body is not intellectual stimulation but harmful commentary

 

[trust_in_the_name]

[SIZE=+2]III. No Additions[/SIZE]

As Paul writes, "not to think beyond what is written" (1 Corinthians 4:6), Moses, Agur the son of Jakeh, and the apostle John, all agree that God's word is not to be added to. Moses speaks of it in Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, Agur in Proverbs 30:5-6, and John in Revelation 22:18-19. The latter two passages reveal adding to God's word brings with it a serious curse.

This is why we do not follow what is typically understood as the "grammatical-historical" approach. It is not the "grammatical" part that is a problem. Obviously, proper grammar is important to any text and the original language indeed authoritative. But, when extra-biblical history is brought to bear upon the passage, the history is simply the writings of men. It is not a reliable source of information (Ecclesiastes 1:11). Men have been known to lie (Psalm 53:1-3).

Charles Strong of bibleone.net gives us an example of this perverted "historical" approach to the Word.

Before the Bible student can effectively understand the contextual interpretation of several passages in the Gospel of John, Colossians, Acts, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 & 2 & 3 John; he must understand something of the heresy of Gnosticism against which was partially the purpose for the writing of these epistles. (www.bibleone.net/print_tbs61.html)
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So, according to Charles, you can't understand "several passages" without this extra-biblical information. Not only is this antichrist (see below), but it is entirely the creation and addition of man to the text of Scripture. None of those books teach anything about "Gnosticism" or that being "the purpose for the writing of these epistles." 1 John 2:26 indeed states,

These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. (1 John 2:26)
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But, those who were trying to deceive them are never specifically identified. This claim to know who they are is an addition to the Word, which is exactly what Scripture warns against.

Charles continues,

The books of Colossians and 1 John are particularly strong in their refutation of the errors of the Gnostic heresy. A couple of illustrations of the need to understand this heresy to interpret scripture will be dealt with later in this study.
This will not be an exhaustive handling of the subject, but it will cover the salient provisions of the aberrant theology of Gnosticism so that the Bible student may arrive at the intended meaning of various scriptural passages within the above listed books of the Bible.
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Although Scripture says nothing of gnosticism, Charles adds this "needed" information for interpreting the text. He says he gleaned this info from,

Wycliffe Bible Dictionary
Believer's Bible Commentary by William MacDonald
Thru the Bible by J. Vernon McGee
The Wycliffe Bible Commentary
Clark's Commentary by Adam Clarke, LL.D., F.S.A.
NIV Bible Commentary
The King James Study Bible
Ryrie Study Bible
Thompson Chain Reference Bible
The New Scofield Reference Bible
Life Application Bible

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So how is this information so valuable? Here is one of his two examples. Charles quotes 1 John 4:1-3 and writes,

Why is John in this epistle stressing that the admission that Christ has come in the flesh is evident that a spirit (and in this case one may interpret spirit as a person's spirit) is either of (representing) or not of God? It is because of the Gnostics and their incessant teaching that God could not have come in the flesh, which is a key element of Christian doctrine.
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Really? "It is because of the Gnostics and their incessant teaching"? That conclusion certainly does not come from the Word. It's an addition.
What comes from the Word? What is not an addition? What is found when the whole counsel of God is considered? Is it because any deceit against Scripture is a denial of Jesus Christ come in the flesh? Left to let Scripture interpret Scripture, 1 John 4 addresses the same thing Paul addresses in Colossians 2:8-10.

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
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Philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, well covers any deceit that would come our way. So, why does Paul warn us not to be cheated with these things? Because, "in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Or, in other words, "Jesus Christ [God] has come in the flesh" (1 John 4:2). Believers "are complete in Him" (Colossians 2:9). In other words, the Word in the flesh (John 1:14) is all we need. Philosophy and empty deceit denies this.

2 Peter, the book that warns for a whole chapter about false teachers, begins the book declaring,

His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him (2 Peter 1:3).
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Colossians and 2 Peter confirm we need no addition to the Bible (see also 2 Timothy 3:16-17).13 "The knowledge of Him" gives us "all things that pertain to life and godliness." Is this the significance of "Jesus Christ [God] has come in the flesh" (1 John 4:2)? Indeed it is, as 1 John 4 continues,

They ["every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh"] are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. (1 John 4:5)
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They speak as of the world. In other words, they speak "philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world." Such is a denial of "Jesus Christ coming in the flesh" (2 John 7), and such is antichrist (1 John 4:3), anti-word (John 1:1), anti-scripture (Psalm 119:21, 118), anti-God (Proverbs 1:24-29).14

So, in Charles' Gnostic addition to the Word he diverts people away from the message of Scripture off onto a man-made insertion of Gnosticism into the text.

[SIZE=+2]IV. No Subtractions[/SIZE]

As nothing is to be added, nothing is to be taken away (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32, Revelation 22:18-19). Nevertheless, as ungodly people seek only rebellion (Proverbs 17:11), they rebel against this as well.

The debate between Calvinish and Arminianism is a good example of both sides subtracting from the Word (and adding). Calvinists subtract from the atonement (limited atonement) and from the Biblical teaching of lost grace (e.g. Galatians 5:4). Arminians take away from the Biblical teaching of election, which takes away from the sovereignty of God and the true perseverance of the saints, and they add free will. Both sides are blind to the whole counsel of God, and so they add and take away truth from the truth of the Bible to their own destruction.

One main problem is men think too highly of their own thoughts and overtly disobey Proverbs 3:5 which says,

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.
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There are many things in the Word which seem contradictory to the human mind, but the human mind is not the standard. The Word is the standard, no matter what it says (Hebrews 4:12-13). One passage cannot subtract from another. It all stands true. Someone may argue, "But that doesn't make sense." It doesn't have to make sense (Proverbs 3:5-6). It has to be Biblical. "His ways are past finding out" (Romans 11:33). Do you think, perhaps, there may be some things that are past understanding and don't make sense? "His understanding is infinite" (Psalm 147:5). Ours is finite and vastly unlike His.

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
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Since His thoughts and ways are infinitely beyond our own, what folly it is to demand that something needs to make sense to our puny minds. In fact, later in Isaiah the Lord condemns those,

who walk in a way that is not good, according to their own thoughts (Isaiah 65:2).
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Some may argue logic is a rule of interpretation. The problem with this is, whose logic? "Persuasive words of human wisdom" (1 Corinthians 2:4), man's wisdom, man's logic, God calls foolishness (1 Corinthians 3:19-20). God indeed says, "let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18), but whose reason are we going to follow? This very same passage of "let us reason" continues with,​

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Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken. (Isaiah 1:18-20)​

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In this reasoning, God calls people to repent and submit to His word. That is the only true logic in existence, for God, who alone is wise (Romans 16:27; 1 Timothy 1:17; Jude 25), is the only source of truth, understanding, wisdom, and knowledge. There is no good, no understanding, no true good logic apart from Him. If the logic contradicts His truth, if it takes away from His truth, it is against Logos (λογος John 1:1);15 and it is to be rejected.​

Some people may appeal to "common sense." This also is an unbiblical standard (Matthew 7:1-2). For what is common is non-sense (Ecclesiastes 9:3; 1 Corinthians 1:20), and what is sense is not common (Matthew 7:13-14).

So, the standard is the Word Himself (the Scriptures) and how a passage is to be understood comes from the Bible itself, no additions and no subtractions. Whether it is to be understood as a parable or symbolic, the text itself dictates the interpretation, because there is no other authority than God on His Word. If Scripture itself dictates neither a proverb,16 parable,17 riddle,18 sarcastic,19 symbolic, spiritual, antitype,20 or allegorical21 understanding (as in Galatians 4:24; Revelation 11:8; 13/17; etc.), then it should not be understood in those ways, but taken as is. In fact, this is the literal approach. The text holds all the authority of interpretation. This is the only honest approach to Scripture. Anything else comes from the mind of man, and he is fallen, "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9).

 

[trust_in_the_name]

I think friend that Christian means your a follower of Jesus, so if they follow Jesus then why should we treat them as something else? my grandmother is a Christian and she Catholic. I think that they have extra books.....to the bible.

Regarding adding extra books to the Bible, this is very telling. See the article about hermeneutics in the section about additions (directly above).

 

[Scotth1960]

SOME Catholics ARE Christians. But those that pray to the 'saints' are decieved. That is idolatry and If a person does not read the Word of God to be able to understand GOD, then they will perish in their sin, per HOS. 4:6

There are many pagan practicies in the RCC even though their basic doctrine (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, three in One God, God in the Flesh) is Biblical. But God does not turn a closed eye to those who practice what the RCC promotes. He WILL hold each person accountable to the obedience of His word.

Maggie

Dear Maggie,
What about the saints in Revelation who are praying before the altar of God? What about Saint Paul? Isn't he already praying for you and me merely by writing most of the NT. You would not even be a Protestant if you didn't MISUNDERSTAND SAINT PAUL. And PROTESTANTISM IS BASED UPON A MISUNDERSTANDING OF SAINT PAUL (cf. 2 Peter 3:16). In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Regarding adding extra books to the Bible, this is very telling. See the article about hermeneutics in the section about additions (directly above).

The Catholics and the Holy Orthodox Church did not add any books to the Bible. The Eastern Orthodox Bible canon is the correct Bible canon. MARTIN LUTHER and the PROTESTANTS took away books from the Bible because they trusted the testimony of unbelieving Jews as to what is the Hebrew cannon, instead of Church Fathers who accepted these books they WRONGLY CALL APOCRYPHA. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Here's an article about the Apocrypha:

[SIZE=+3]The Apocrypha[/SIZE]

The Apocrypha is a group of writings (or books) that are contained in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (called the Septuagint, abbreviated LXX), but are not in the Hebrew Old Testament (which should be a big clue towards understanding their spurious nature). These books were supposed to have been written somewhere around 200 B.C. or later (although, some of the books themselves claim earlier authorship). Some churches recognize them as Scripture. Some do not. Most (if not all) "Protestant" churches reject the Apocrypha (as holy writ), whereas the Roman Catholic Church accepts most of the Apocrypha (12 in number, called the Deuterocanonicals). Eastern Orthodox, Greek, and Russian churches accept most, if not all, the Apocrypha writings.

The names of these books are as follows (as found in the New Revised Standard Version): Tobit, Judith, Additions to Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (or The Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach), Baruch, The Letter of Jeremiah, The Prayer of Azariah And the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, Bel and The Dragon, 1 Maccabees, and 2 Maccabees, (all the above are accepted as Scripture by the Roman Catholic Church), 1 Esdras, The Prayer of Mannassh, Psalm 151, 3 Maccabees, 2 Esdras (2 Esdras is not actually found in the Greek but in the Slavonic Bible as 3 Esdras), and then 4 Maccabees (which is found in an appendix to the Greek Bible).

Roman Catholics argue that the early church fathers quoted from these books (the first 12) and looked at them as Scripture. They also argue that church counsels throughout the ages have always confirmed their canonicity; therefore, this shows they should be regarded as God's Word. The problem with this is, the early church fathers were Roman Catholics themselves. And, the church counsels they refer to were Roman Catholic Church counsels. So what we have here is Roman Catholics using earlier Roman Catholics to prove their point. In Colossians 2:8, Paul warns against this kind of thing (the traditions of men).

Another argument that is used for the Apocrypha is that the apostles quoted from the Septuagint (the Greek O.T., which contained the Apocrypha) and used it as their Bible, and therefore they viewed the Apocrypha as the Word of God. Now, it does appear that the apostles quoted from the Septuagint, because many (not all) of the quotes in the New Testament follow the wording of the Septuagint. But, this does not dictate (or demand) that the apostles accepted the Apocryphal writings as Scripture.

In fact, nowhere in the New Testament is there to be found one quote from any book in the Apocrypha. This is typically understood, but there are those who say there are many "references" to the Apocrypha to be found in the New Testament, thus supporting the idea that the Apocrypha was accepted by the apostles as the Word of God.

James Akin has a web site (www.cin.org/users/james) in which he gives a list of somewhere around 300 "references" which supposedly are passages to be found in the New Testament that are "references" to passages in the Apocrypha. He says he obtained this list from pages 800-804 in the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament, 27th edition (Novum Testamentum: Graece et Latine, published by Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft).

The best "reference" to be found (which Mr. Akin calls "indisputable") is Hebrews 11:35. It is suppose to be a "reference" to 2 Maccabees 7 (mainly verses 1, & 5-9). Hebrews 11:35 says,

And others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.
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2 Maccabees 7:1 reads (NRSV),

It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king under torture with whips and thongs, to partake of unlawful swine's flesh.
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And then 2 Maccabees 7:5 says,

When he was utterly helpless, the king ordered them to take him to the fire, still breathing, and to fry him in a pan. The smoke from the pan spread widely, but the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly,
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And 2 Maccabees 7:7-9 says,

After the first brother had died in this way, they brought forward the second for their sport. They tore off the skin of his head with the hair, and asked him, "Will you eat rather than have your body punished limb by limb?" He replied in the language of his ancestors and said to them, "No." Therefore he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. And when he was at his last breath, he said, "You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life, because we have died for his laws."
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So, 2 Maccabees gives an account of people dying for their faith and having their hope in the resurrection. James Akin says this is "indisputable". So, all one has to do is find a document (or make one up) that records someone dying for their faith and having hope in the resurrection, and this means that these are the people the writer of Hebrews had in mind! This "indisputable" reference is an indisputable assumption about what was in the mind of the author of the book of Hebrews!

As stated above, this is the best "reference" to be found. Yet, even if there was a direct quote (let alone a "reference"), this, in and of itself, would not prove that the one giving the direct quote is substantiating the document as being the living Word of God.

For example, there are some who consider Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:33 a quote from a play called "Thais" by Menander. Even if this was a direct quote, does this mean Paul believes the play was inspired by God? No way! You could also note Acts 17:28. Here, Paul quotes one of their own idolatrous poets. Is Paul here propagating that this poet was inspired by God? No. Likewise, in Titus 1:12 Paul quotes "one of their own" (in the context of "idle talkers and deceivers"), but is Paul saying the man was a holy man of God who was moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21)? No. That would be taking Paul's words way beyond his intent.

In reviewing James Akin's many "references", what you will find is that the New Testament passage simply brushes upon a similar subject that is found in the Apocrypha (which proves nothing). For a few examples, note the following "references" (from James Akin's list):

Jude 13/Wisdom 14:1

. . . raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. (Jude 13, NKJV)

Again, one preparing to sail and about to voyage over raging waves calls upon a piece of wood more fragile than the ship that carries him. (Wisdom 14:1)

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1 Thessalonians 3:11/Judith 12:8

Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. (1 Thessalonians 3:11)
After bathing, she prayed the Lord God of Israel to direct her way for the triumph of his people. (Judith 12:8)

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Hebrews 12:12/Sirach (or, Ecclesiasticus) 25:23

Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, (Hebrews 12:12)
Dejected mind, gloomy face, and wounded heart come from an evil wife. Drooping hands and weak knees come from the wife who does not make her husband happy. (Sirach 25:23)
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As can be seen, these references barely brush upon the same or similar subject. There are also some references that are down right stupid (they have no connection)! For a few examples, note the following:
Luke 15:12/Tobit 3:17

And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me,' So he divided to them his livelihood. (Luke 15:12)

So Raphael was sent to heal both of them: Tobit, by removing the white films from his eyes, so that he might see God's light with his eyes; and Sarah, daughter of Raguel, by giving her in marriage to Tobias son of Tobit, and by setting her free from the wicked demon Asmodeus. For Tobias was entitled to have her before all others who had desired to marry her. At the same time that Tobit returned from the courtyard into his house, Sarah daughter of Raguel came down from her upper room. (Tobit 3:17)
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Acts 15:4/Judith 8:26

And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. (Acts 15:4)

Remember what he did with Abraham, and how he tested Isaac, and what happened to Jacob in Syrian Mesopotamia, while he was tending the sheep of Laban, his mother's brother. (Judith 8:26)
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Acts 5:34/Judith 8:35

Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while. (Acts 5:34)

Uzziah and the rulers said to her, "Go in peace, and may the Lord God go before you, to take vengeance on our enemies. (Judith 8:35)
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Acts 19:27/Wisdom 3:17

So not only is this trade of ours in danger of falling into disrepute, but also the temple of the great goddess Diana may be despised and her magnificence destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worship. (Acts 19:27)

Even if they speaking of those born out of wedlock live long they will be held of no account and finally their old age will be without honor. (Wisdom 3:17)
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John 3:28/1 Maccabees 9:39

You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, "I am not the Christ," but, "I have been sent before Him." (John 3:28)
They looked out and saw a tumultuous procession with a great amount of baggage; and the bridegroom came with his friends and his brothers to meet them with tambourines and musicians and many weapons. (1 Maccabees 9:39)

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Aside from the folly above, the Apocrypha itself has a great deal of false doctrine in it. For the rest of this article, we will look at each book, and some of the error found therein.

[SIZE=+2]The book of Tobit:[/SIZE]

Tobit is a story of a man named Tobit and his son named Tobias. Early on in the story, some birds slice their droppings into his eyes and he becomes blind (Tobit 2:10). Also, there is a woman named Sarah who had been married 7 times, but each time, without fail, a demon (named Asmodeus) came on the wedding night and killed the groom before they could consummate the marriage (Tobit 3:7).

As the story goes, an angel of God comes along named Raphael (Tobit 5:4) and through a process of time (several days) he ends up healing Tobit's blindness through the use of some supposed "medicine" and gets rid of Asmodeus, the demon, so Sarah and Tobias are able to have a wedding night without Tobias being killed by the demon.

There are several problems with this book.

[SIZE=+1]I. The "angel of God" lies.[/SIZE]

Near the beginning of the story, Tobit asks the angel (Raphael) his name. He gives a false name and a false lineage. He says, "I am Azariah, the son of the great Hananiah, one of your relatives." (Tobit 5:13, or 12)

[SIZE=+1]II. This lying "angel of God"[/SIZE] (more like, demon) uses witchcraft.

In Tobit 6, Tobias goes down to the river to wash his feet and this large fish jumps out and attempts to swallow his foot (Tobit 6:3). Tobias freaks out, but the angel tells him to catch the fish so that he can use the fish for medicinal purposes and for warding off an evil spirit. In Tobit 6:8, the "angel" says,

As for the fish's heart and liver, you must burn them to make a smoke in the presence of a man or a woman afflicted by a demon or evil spirit, and every affliction will flee away and never remain with that person any longer.
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A little later, the "angel" instructs Tobias (regarding his marriage to Sarah),

When you enter the bridal chamber, take some of the fish's liver and heart, and put them on the embers of the incense. An odor will be given off; the demon will smell it and flee, and will never be seen near her any more. (Tobit 6:17-18)
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So, Tobias does it.

Then Tobias remembered the words of Raphael, and he took the fish's liver and heart out of the bag where he had them and put them on the embers of the incense. The odor of the fish so repelled the demon that he fled to the remotest parts of Egypt. (Tobit 8:2-3)
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This is witchcraft teaching! There is no way this is God-breathed!

There is also,

[SIZE=+1]III. False doctrine about giving:[/SIZE]

For almsgiving delivers from death and keeps you from going into the Darkness. (Tobit 4:10)

For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin. (Tobit 12:9)
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In other words, almsgiving saves! This teaching would fit well with Catholic doctrine (especially in their past). To refute the above, please note Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:3-4.

There is also,

[SIZE=+1]IV. False doctrine about where to place your bread.[/SIZE]

Place your bread on the grave of the righteous, but give none to sinners. (Tobit 4:17)
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"Place your bread on the grave of the righteous..."? That is foolish! For what? They're dead. They don't need it! Also, "...give none to sinners" is directly against Christ's words in Luke 6:30, "Give to everyone who asks of you," and Paul's words in Romans 12:20.

[SIZE=+2]The book of Judith[/SIZE]

This is a story about a woman named Judith, who, through her beauty, entices "the eyes of all the men who might see her" (Judith 10:4), and brings about a deliverance for the Jews. She ends up cutting off the head of the leader of an invading army, and this leads to the Jew's deliverance.
The book begins with a historical error. The writer has Nebuchadnezzer as King over the Assyrians in Nineveh (Judith 1:1, 16; 2:1). Nebuchadnezzer was king over the Babylonians in Babylon.

As a result of this obvious error, James Akin (see the above mentioned web site) argues that the book is a parable. You could read the text (Judith) for yourself, it reads much like a historical writing and gives no reason for being taken as a parable (other than this one blatant error).

[SIZE=+2]Additions To Esther[/SIZE]

This is bad, first of all, by its very title (please note Proverbs 30:5-6). These "additions" are only found in Greek, not Hebrew (the language in which Esther was written). If it was really supposed to be part of Esther, it would still be in Esther (Psalm 12:6-7).

Secondly, the "additions" talk about God several times over, and if you are familiar with Esther, this is one subject glaringly absent! It's an obvious attempt (or should be obvious) that someone wanted to add to Esther. The title is appropriate, "Additions To Esther", Proverbs 30:5-6.

[SIZE=+2]The Wisdom Of Solomon[/SIZE]

This has a preponderance of false doctrine in it.

Wisdom 1:13 says, ". . . God did not make death". Please note Isaiah 45:7; Romans 11:36 and Colossians 1:16.

Wisdom 3:16-19 says,

But children of adulterers will not come to maturity, and the offspring of an unlawful union will perish. Even if they live long they will be held of no account, and finally their old age will be without honor. If they die young, they will have no hope and no consolation on the day of judgment. For the end of an unrighteous generation is grievous.
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So, in other words, if you are born out of wedlock, you're going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it! This is against Romans 10:13, John 3:16, and Isaiah 55:6f.

Wisdom 6:17 says, "The beginning of wisdom is the most sincere desire for instruction." This is a lie. Proverbs 9:10 says, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Just because someone has a sincere desire for wisdom means nothing (in and of itself). Note Proverbs 1:28,

"Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; they will seek me diligently, but they will not find me."
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Here is someone who has a "sincere desire for wisdom", but wisdom does not come!

In Wisdom 6:22 the writer says, "I will tell you what wisdom is and how she came to be, ..." This is a lie. The writer never says how wisdom came to be.
Wisdom 6:24 says, "The multitude of the wise is the salvation of the world," This is a lie. Jesus is the salvation of the world (that is, for any who might be saved). Please note 1 Timothy 4:10.

Wisdom 8:19 says, "As a child I was naturally gifted, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body." This speaks against the truth found in Psalm 51:5; 53:1, and Romans 7:18.

Chapter 9 has a long prayer that is suppose to be Solomon's prayer asking for wisdom. 1 Kings 3:6-9 gives his "prayer", and it's not what is given in Wisdom 9.

Wisdom 12:11 says, speaking of God, "Although you are sovereign in strength, you judge with mildness, ..." This is a lie. Please note Hebrews 10:28 and Hebrews 10:30-31.

Wisdom 13:1 says,

For all people who were ignorant of God were foolish by nature; and they were unable from the good things that are seen to know the one who exists, nor did they recognize the artisan while paying heed to his works; but they supposed that either fire or wind or swift air, or the circle of the stars, or turbulent water, or the luminaries of heaven were the gods that rule the world.
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This is contrary to Romans 1:18-23.

Similarly, Wisdom 13:6 says,

Yet these people are little to be blamed, for perhaps they go astray while seeking God and desiring to find him.
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"These people are little to be blamed"? This is a lie. Romans 1:20 says they are without excuse. Also, it says they "go astray while seeking God". This also is a lie. Please see Romans 3:11 and 1:28.

Wisdom 14:27 says,

For the worship of idols not to be named is the beginning and cause and end of every evil.
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This is a lie. The worship of idols is the result of evil (Romans 1:28), not the beginning or cause of evil. Also, please note 1 Timothy 6:10.

Wisdom 15:17 says,

People are mortal, and what they make with lawless hands is dead; for they are better than the objects they worship, since they have life, but the idols never had.
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This is contrary to Psalm 115:8 and Psalm 135:18.

Wisdom 16:21, speaking of the children of Israel in the desert, says,

For your sustenance manifested your sweetness toward your children; and the bread, ministering to the desire of the one who took it, was changed to suit everyone's liking.
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This is contrary to Numbers 11:5-6.

Wisdom 7:17 says, "For it is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, ..." This is a lie (obvious from the above).

 

[trust_in_the_name]

[SIZE=+2]Ecclesiasticus or The Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach or simply Sirach[/SIZE]

Sirach 1:1 says, "Wisdom was created before all other things, ..." Also, 1:9 says, "It is he who created her; ..." 24:8 says, "Then the Creator of all things gave me a command, and my Creator chose the place for my tent." 24:9 says, "Before the ages, in the beginning, he created me, ..." This is all a lie. Proverbs 8:23 says of wisdom, "I have been established from everlasting." Wisdom was never created.

In Sirach, there is false doctrine concerning the atonement of sins.

Those who honor their father atone for sins, (Sirach 3:3)
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Sirach 3:14-15 says,

For kindness to a father will not be forgotten, and will be credited to you against your sins; in the day of your distress it will be remembered in your favor; like frost in fair weather, your sins will melt away.
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And Sirach 3:30 says,

As water extinguishes a blazing fire, so almsgiving atones for sin.
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This is all against 1 John 2:2, Ephesians 2:9, and Titus 3:4.

Sirach 8:13 says,

Do not give surety beyond your means; but if you give surety, be prepared to pay.
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This is contrary to Proverbs 6:1f; 11:15; 17:18; & 22:26.

Sirach also teaches the ****ing lie of self-esteem.

My child, honor yourself with humility, and give yourself the esteem you deserve. (Sirach 10:28)
One loses self-respect with another person's food, but one who is intelligent and well instructed guards against that. (Sirach 40:29)
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For verses concerning self-esteem, or self-respect please note Proverbs 26:12; 28:26; Matthew 5:3; Luke 9:23; and Jeremiah 17:5.

Sirach 12:4-7 says,

Give to the devout, but do not help the sinner. Do good to the humble, but do not give to the ungodly; hold back their bread, and do not give it to them, for by means of it they might subdue you; then you will receive twice as much evil for all the good you have done to them. For the Most High also hates sinners and will afflict punishment on the ungodly. Give to the one who is good, but do not help the sinner.
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This goes directly against Luke 6:27-36 and Matthew 5:38-48.

Sirach teaches the opposite of Matthew 5:3 & 4:

Happy are those who do not blunder with their lips, and need not suffer remorse for sin. (Sirach 14:1)
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Sirach teaches against the truth revealed in Isaiah 63:17.

Sirach 15:11-12(a) says

Do not say, 'It was the Lord's doing that I fell away'; for he does not do what he hates. Do not say, 'It was he who led me astray';
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Yet Sirach contradicts itself in Sirach 23:4,

O Lord, Father and God of my life, do not give me haughty eyes,
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So, does God do such things or not? Indeed, He does (Romans 1:28f)! It is God's doing when someone falls away! Please see Isaiah 63:17. Also note Matthew 13:12 ("what he has will be taken away from him"). Likewise, note Matthew 25:29, Mark 4:21-25, Luke 8:10-18; 19:11-27.

Sirach 20:30 says,

Hidden wisdom and unseen treasure, of what value is either? Better are those who hide their folly than those who hide their wisdom.
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In other words, "those who hid their folly are better than Christ."! Because, Christ hides His wisdom. Please note Proverbs 12:23. We see a prudent man concealing knowledge in Christ. In Matthew 13:3 He spoke many parables. Note Matthew 13:10-11, 34-35 (kept secret, i.e. God kept them secret). Note also Romans 16:25. And note, God still conceals knowledge, Psalm 25:14, Proverbs 3:32, Deuteronomy 29:29.

Sirach 22:3 says,

It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined son, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.
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This is contrary to Psalm 127:3, "The fruit of the womb is a reward", not a loss!

Sirach 22:6 says,

Like music in time of mourning is ill-timed conversation, but a thrashing and discipline are at all times wisdom.
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This is contrary to Ecclesiastes 3:1 and following.

In Sirach 22:23, ungodly wisdom can be found, seasoned with the error of greed. Sirach 22:23 says,

Gain the trust of your neighbor in his poverty, so that you may rejoice with him in his prosperity. Stand by him in time of distress, so that you may share with him in his inheritance.
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Sirach 25:24 says,

From a woman sin had its beginning, and because of her we all die.
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This is a lie and contrary to Romans 5:12.

More foolishness can be found in Sirach 26:5 which says,

Of three things my heart is frightened, and of a fourth I am in great fear: [here's an ungodly fear] Slander in the city, the gathering of a mob, and false accusation - all these are worse than death.
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Worse than death? Jesus said to rejoice over such things (slander and false accusation, Matthew 5:11-12).

Sirach 28:18 says,

Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but not as many as have fallen because of the tongue. Happy is the one who is protected from it, who has not been exposed to its anger, [this is against Matthew 5:11-12 & Luke 6:22-23] who has not borne its yoke, and has not been bound with its fetters. For its yoke is a yoke of iron, and its fetters are fetters of bronze; its death is an evil death, and Hades is preferable to it.
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That's a lie! Worse than Hades? Please note Luke 16:23-24. Hades is definitely worse!

Sirach 29:21 says,

The necessities of life are water, bread, and clothing, and also a house to assure privacy.
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This is worldly wisdom. The necessities of life are food and clothing (1 Timothy 6:8, a house is not included). With these we should be content. As Christ himself had food and clothing, and no house (Matthew 8:20), and was content (being without sin, Hebrews 4:15).

Sirach 31:15 says, "Judge your neighbor's feelings by your own," This is against Matthew 7:1-2. We should not judge our neighbor's feelings.

Sirach 32:19 says,

Do nothing without deliberation, but when you have acted, do not regret it.
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This is more foolishness. What if you did wrong? You had better regret it (1 John 1:9; Proverbs 28:13; 2 Corinthians 7:10)!

In Sirach 37:11 it says,

Do not consult . . . with a merchant about business or with a buyer about selling,
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There's nothing unlawful or foolish about that (Proverbs 12:15; 15:22; 19:20)!

Similar folly can be found in Sirach 39:34 where it says,

No one can say, "This is not as good as that," for everything proves good in its appointed time.
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"No one can say, 'This is not as good as that,'"? Paul did (1 Corinthians 7:38).

How about some table manners? Sirach 41:19 declares,

Be ashamed of breaking an oath or agreement, and of leaning on your elbow at meals;
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How about a ****ing lie! Sirach 37:13 says,

And heed the counsel of your own heart, for no one is more faithful to you than it is. For our own mind sometimes keeps us better informed than seven sentinels sitting high on a watchtower.
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This is against the wisdom of Proverbs 14:12 (16:25); & Jeremiah 17:9.

Sirach 42:14 says,

Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good;
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In other words, wickedness is better than righteousness, if the righteousness is done by a woman! God says, "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; ..." (Isaiah 5:20).

Moreover, Sirach 46:19 speaks of Samuel's "eternal sleep". Ecclesiastes 12:5 speaks of man's "eternal home". In other words, man enters into eternity, and that being either salvation or condemnation (Hebrews 9:27). But, there is not "eternal sleep" (John 5:28-29).

Sirach 49:4, speaking of the kings of Israel, says,

Except for David and Hezekiah and Josiah, all of them were great sinners, for they abandoned the law of the Most High;
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Not true. Jehoshaphat did what was right in the eyes of the Lord (1 Kings 22:43), and so did Jotham (2 Kings 15:34).

[SIZE=+2]The book of Baruch[/SIZE]

This is a book that is purported to be written by Baruch, the son of Neriah, the Baruch mentioned in Jeremiah (Jer. 32:12,13,16; 36:4,5,8,10,13-19,26,27,32; 43:3,6; 45:1,2). It concerns the issue of the Israelite captivity, prayers for God to have mercy, and then God promising to have mercy.
Besides the fact that it should be found in the Hebrew language (like the book of Jeremiah is), at the very beginning of the book we have a lie.

In Baruch 1:8-9 it says,

At the same time, on the tenth day of Sivan, Baruch took the vessels of the house of the Lord, which had been carried away from the temple, to return them to the land of Judah - the silver vessels that Zedekiah son of Josiah, king of Judah, had made, after King Nebuchadnezzer of Bablylon had carried away from Jerusalem Jeconiah and the princes and the prisoners and the nobles and the people of the land, and brought them to Babylon.
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In the context, this is stated to have been done while Nebuchadnezzar was still alive (1:1, "in the fifth year, on the seventh day of the month, at the time when the Chaldeans took Jerusalem and burned it with fire." See also Baruch 1:10f). 1 Kings 25:1-15 records Nebuchadnezzer taking the city and vessels of gold and silver. There is no returning of the vessels of the house of the Lord until approximately 70 years later under the command of Cyrus (long after Nebuchadnezzar's death). This is recorded in Ezra 1:1, and 1:7f. The book of Baruch begins with a lie.

[SIZE=+2]The Letter Of Jeremiah[/SIZE]

This is suppose to be a letter Jeremiah wrote to the captives of Israel. The obvious error is found in 1:16 & 1:23. Speaking of idols, it is written,

. . . their faces are wiped because of the dust from the temple, which is thick upon them. One of them holds a scepter, like a district judge, but is unable to destroy anyone who offends it. Another has a dagger in its right hand, and an ax, but cannot defend itself from war and robbers. From this it is evident that they are not gods; so do not fear them. (1 :13-16 or 6:13-16)
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. . . when their faces have been blackened by the smoke of the temple. Bats, swallows, and birds alight on their bodies and heads; and so do cats. From this you will know that they are not gods; so do not fear them. (1:21-23 or 6:21-23)
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This is foolishness! It is not because of these things that men know that they are not gods! Man's knowledge about the true God (Romans 1:18-25) dictates that they know idols are not gods, but they turn to them anyway in their suppression of the truth, and in their debased minds (Romans 1:28). Men don't need dust to fall upon them (or birds) to know they are but idols.

[SIZE=+2]The Prayer of Azariah[/SIZE]

This is "Additions to Daniel, inserted between 3:23 and 3:24" (NRSV, paperback, p. 131). Additions to Daniel (or any other book of the Bible) should be looked at through the eye of Proverbs 30:5-6. Additions are written by liars!

This Prayer of Azariah gives songs that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego supposedly sung while they were in the fire. One song is quite long. If you read Daniel chapter three, it does not appear they were in the furnace for any great length of time.

The clear false doctrine in this book can be found in verses 26-27 (It's one chapter, 68 verses long). Verses 26-27 says,

But the angel of the Lord came down into the furnace to be with Azariah and his companions, and drove the fiery flame out of the furnace, and made the inside of the furnace as though a moist wind were whistling through it.
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This is a lie. Please note Daniel 3:22-26.

[SIZE=+2]The book of Susanna[/SIZE]

This is another addition to Daniel (Proverbs 30:5-6). This is about a woman named Susanna who was wrongly accused of sexual immorality and sentenced to death, and Daniel (supposedly) saves her from being put to death.

This is suppose to be a thirteenth chapter to Daniel, but it doesn't fit. It's written in the wrong language (Greek). If it was authentic it should be either Hebrew or Aramaic. Also, the historical parts of Daniel are written in chronological order (chapters 1-6). This is suppose to be a historical account, but it has Daniel as a "young lad", so it should actually be near the beginning of the book rather than at the end.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

[SIZE=+2]Bel And The Dragon[/SIZE]

This is suppose to be a fourteenth chapter to Daniel (Proverbs 30:5-6), which again, doesn't fit, because the historical record ends in chapter six of Daniel, and the rest is prophecy. It likewise is not written in the correct language.

In this book, Daniel (supposedly) exposes some idolaters who make it out that their god eats the offerings made. He lays dust on the floor, and exposes their footprints, showing that priests crept in during the night and ate the food.

In the second part of this chapter, there is (supposedly) a living dragon that the king and the people believe is a god. So, Daniel asks the king for permission to kill the dragon to prove the dragon is not a god. The king gives permission. So, Daniel poisons the dragon and it dies. As a result, the people are infuriated and Daniel is thrown into the lions den (for a second time). While Daniel is in the lion's den, the prophet Habakkuk supposedly flies (by the spirit) from Judea to Babylon to give Daniel some food while in the den.

You can see that this account is false most clearly by looking at verses 28 and 29.

When the Babylonians heard about it Daniel killing the dragon, they were very indignant and conspired against the king, saying, "The king has become a Jew; he has destroyed Bel (the dragon) and slaughtered the priests." Going to the king, they said, "Hand Daniel over to us, or else we will kill you and your household."
​

Besides the unlikelihood of the people addressing the king in this manner, this idea of the king "becoming a Jew" is not a new concept. This is supposedly during the reign of King Cyrus, and from his first year, he exemplified "Jewishness", Ezra 1:1-4.

[SIZE=+2]1 Maccabees[/SIZE]

This is a historical account of the times of the Jews under the leadership of Judus (and his brothers), who was called Maccabeus, who lead the Jews into several military victories. There is an account of where the holiday Hanukkah comes from in 1 Maccabees 4:52-59.

There is not much in the way of false doctrine in it, except perhaps the idea of removing the "marks of circumcision" in 1 Maccabees 1:15. How do you do that? Also, in 1 Maccabees 2:57 it says that "David, because he was merciful, inherited the throne of the kingdom forever." Actually, it was because God was merciful, 2 Samuel 7:18-22.

1 Maccabees is basically history. There is no reason to believe it is inspired, especially being so closely associated with all these books with serious error, and in the light of Amos 8:11-12.

[SIZE=+2]2 Maccabees[/SIZE]

2 Maccabees covers more history in more detail. There is false doctrine to be found in this book.
In 2 Maccabees 6:14-16, the writer is attempting to show how God deals differently with the Jewish nation, and he writes,

For in the case of the other nations the Lord waits patiently to punish them until they have reached the full measure of their sins; but he does not deal in this way with us, in order that he may not take vengeance on us afterward when our sins have reached their height. Therefore he never withdraws his mercy from us. Although he disciplines us with calamities, he does not forsake his own people.
​

The Lord doesn't wait until the sins have reached "full measure"? If this were true, then why did Jesus say to the Jews,

Fill up, then, the measure of your father's guilt. (Matthew 23:32; please note also verses 33-36.)
​

The above quote (from 2 Maccabees) says, "in order that he may not take vengeance on us...". Please note Deuteronomy 32:35-36 and Hebrews 10:30. God does take vengeance on His people!

Will He "forsake"? Yes, Deuteronomy 31:16-17. Will He utterly forsake the Israelites as a people? No. Psalm 94:14 (Psalm 37:28-29). But, He will forsake all the wicked (including wicked Jews, 2 Chronicles 15:2).

In 2 Maccabees 12:39-45, we have the classic Catholics purgatory text.

On the next day, as had now become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kindred in the sepulchres of their ancestors. Then under the tunic of each one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was the reason these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead so that they might be delivered from their sin.
​

No mention of purgatory is there, but, no doubt, the implications of the text, according to the Catholics, is that such a place exists. This text goes against a lot of Scripture.

First of all, Scripture teaches that it is appointed that men die once, and after this, judgment (Hebrews 9:27). In John 8:24, Jesus said to the Jews that they would die in their sins. What is dying in your sin? It is being lost (unsaved, not saved from your sin) at the time of your death. And what is the result of this? Hell!

In 2 Corinthians 5:10, Paul says,

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
​

Similarly, in Romans 2:6-10a Paul wrote, speaking of God's judgment,

... who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness - indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, ...
​

This judgment is based upon the "things done in the body". Once death hits, we are no longer in the body (obviously), and thus, our fate is sealed as to either eternal condemnation or salvation. As Jesus said in John 5:28-29,

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
​

Whatever state people die in (wicked or righteous), this dictates either their condemnation or salvation. This is exemplified in Luke 16:22-23, where the rich man dies in his sins and is in torments in Hades (note, those in Hades get thrown into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:11-15).

Now, Biblically, the only exception to this sealed fate after death is found in 1 Peter 4:6. Here it is speaking of a specific group of "spirits" (men) that were alive during the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:19-20). Other than this specific group, the above holds true for the rest of mankind.
Therefore, when idolaters die, they die in their idolatry, and thus end up in hell (not heaven). This is why Revelation 21:8 says,

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
​

This text (2 Maccabees 12:39-45) teaches that idolaters, who have died idolaters, can somehow inherit eternal life. Such a lie goes directly against Revelation 21:8, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Ephesians 5:5-6.

Furthermore, this text (2 Maccabees 12:39-45) teaches that the blood of animals can take away sins. This is a lie and is directly against Hebrews 10:4 & 11 (the animal sacrifices were symbolic, Hebrews 9:9-10).

Moreover, this text (2 Maccabees 12:39-45) teaches that the sins of a dead sinner can be atoned for by the actions of living sinners. Please note Psalm 49:7-8a.

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him - for the redemption of their souls is costly.
​

Finally, 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 teaches hypocrisy. On the one hand, they are praying for idolaters, yet in verse 45 it says, "he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness". Yes, there is a splendid reward for those who fall asleep in godliness. But idolaters fall asleep in ungodliness! The only "reward" they will receive is hell fire (Isaiah 66:24)!

In 2 Maccabees 14:37-46, there is an account of a man named Razis who is made out to be a godly man ("very well thought of and for his good will was called father of the Jews", verse 37; and, "he had most zealously risked his body and life for Judaism"). This Razis commits suicide, much like Saul did (1 Samuel 31:4). 2 Maccabees 14:41b-42 reads,

Being surrounded, Razis fell upon his own sword, preferring to die nobly rather than to fall into the hand of sinners and suffer outrages unworthy of his noble birth.
​

That is pride, not godliness and humility! Also, since when is suicide "noble"?

Besides what we just looked at, the writer himself ends the book denying inspiration. Speaking of the book of 2 Maccabees, he writes,

If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that was the best I could do.
​

If it was the living Word of God, it could not be "poorly done and mediocre".

Here ends the books that the Roman Catholic Church believes to be Scripture. At this point in the order of the Apocryphal books, the NRSV has this (right at the end of 2 Maccabees just before 1 Esdras):

(b) The following books are recognized as Deuterocanonical Scripture by the Greek and Russian Churches. They are not so recognized by the Roman Catholic Church, but 1 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh (together with 2 Esdras) are placed in an appendix to the Latin Vulgate Bible.
​

Here is a brief look at these books.

[SIZE=+2]1 Esdras[/SIZE]

This book covers the end of king Josiah's reign, into the time of Ezra, the return of the captives, and the rebuilding of the temple. In chapter one, it says of Josiah (regarding his warring against the king of Egypt) that he "did not heed the words of the prophet Jeremiah from the mouth of the Lord." 2 Chronicles 35:22 says Josiah "did not heed the words of Necho from the mouth of God."

In chapters three and four, there is a silly story about three young men of the bodyguard of king Darius. Darius has a big banquet, and it says,

They ate and drank, and when they were satisfied they went away, and King Darius went to his bedroom; he went to sleep, but woke up again. Then the three young men of the bodyguard, who kept guard over the person of the king, said to one another, 'Let each of us state what one thing is strongest; and to the one whose statement seems wisest, King Darius will give rich gifts and great honor of victory. He shall be clothed in purple, and drink from gold cups, and sleep on a gold bed, and have a chariot with gold bridles, and a turban of fine linen, and a necklace around his neck; and because of his wisdom he shall sit next to Darius and shall be called Kinsman of Darius. (3:3-7)
​

As a result of this contest, King Darius ends up issuing a decree to rebuild the city, the temple, and restore the temple vessels of gold and silver. In this statement about the vessels of gold and silver, this book reveals its folly. The vessels of gold and silver had already been restored, by the decree of Cyrus (Ezra 1:7-11). So, there is clear error on this account. Plus, with this decree, 1 Esdras chapter 6 (which covers basically what is found in Ezra 5 & 6) is foolishness, because if 1 Esdras 3 & 4 were a true account, a decree would have already been made by Darius to rebuild the temple. But, in 1 Esdras 6 they have Darius issuing a decree again. 1 Esdras 3 & 4 does not align with the truth.

[SIZE=+2]The Prayer Of Manasseh[/SIZE]

This is supposedly the prayer of Manasseh when he repented after being carried away by the king of Assyria (2 Chronicles 33:10-16). In verse 8 it says,

Therefore you, O Lord, God of the righteous, have not appointed repentance for the righteous, for Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, who did not sin against you, but you have appointed repentance for me, who am a sinner.
​

This is a lie. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were sinners too (Abraham, Romans 4:2-5; Isaac, Genesis 35:29, sinners die; Jacob, Genesis 49:33; Romans 3:23).

[SIZE=+2]Psalm 151[/SIZE]

In the copy of The Septuagint With The Apocrypha by Brenton, this book is not included (and neither is 2 Esdras), but is in the NRSV Apocrypha. This supposed Psalm is only seven verses long, and the beginning title says,

This psalm is ascribed to David as his own composition (though it is outside the number), after he had fought in single combat with Goliath.
​

So, it admits to being "outside the number" of the true Scriptures (the true Psalms of God), and it claims to be one of the earliest (if not the earliest) Psalm ever written. This Psalm is not found in Hebrew (like the rest of the Psalms). Obviously, someone just made it up. There is no reason to believe it was written by David. It's not even in David's language (Hebrew).
What is evil here is that someone wrote this under the guise of being written by David hoping people would believe it to be from David. In other words, a liar wrote it. And, he exposes himself in the statement "it is outside the number". Indeed it is!

[SIZE=+2]3 Maccabees[/SIZE]

3 Maccabees is more Jewish history. The most obvious error in this book (besides whether or not the stories in it are true or not, and they sound quite fictitious) is 3 Maccabees 6:18 which says,

Then the most glorious, almighty, and true God revealed his face and opened the heavenly gates, from which two glorious angels of fearful aspect descended visible to all but the Jews.
​

God told Moses, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me and live." (Exodus 33:20) In the story, everyone does not die. 3 Maccabees 6:18 is a lie. God did not reveal His face.

[SIZE=+2]2 Esdras[/SIZE]

This is written as more history of the Jews during the time of Ezra. Chapter 1 verse 30 is used as a proof text (by some) as if Christ is referring to or quoting out of 2 Esdras 1:30 in Matthew 23:37. God is supposedly speaking and says,

I gathered you as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But now, what shall I do to you ? I will cast you out from my presence. (2 Esdras 1:30)
​

Compare this with Matthew 23:37. Matthew 23:37 says the opposite! He wanted to gather them, but they refused.
In 2 Esdras 4:23, Ezra supposedly asks "why Israel has been given over to the Gentiles in disgrace...?" Ezra (the true Ezra) knew the answer to this question. See Ezra 9:7.

2 Esdras 5:4 & 8 has a strange and foolish prophecy in it. This was supposed to have happened near the latter end of Ezra's life (or soon thereafter).

... if the Most High grants that you live, you shall see it [the earth] thrown into confusion after the third period; and the sun shall suddenly begin to shine at night, and the moon during the day. [That's nothing new!]... There shall be chaos also in many places, fire shall often break out, the wild animals shall roam behind their haunts, and menstruous women shall bring forth monsters. (2 Esdras 5:4&8)
​

More folly can be found in 2 Esdras 5:51-55.

He replied to me, "Ask a woman who bears children, and she will tell you. Say to her, 'Why are those whom you have borne recently not like those whom you bore before, but are smaller in stature?' And she herself will answer you, 'Those born in the strength of youth are different than those born during the time of old age, when the womb is failing.' Therefore you also should consider that you and your contemporaries are smaller in stature than those who were before you, and those who come after you will be smaller than you, as born of a creation that already is aging and passing the strength of youth."
​

In other words, each generation gets shorter and shorter, and even within the same family, the older children are shorter than the younger. This is foolishness.

There is a false prophecy in 2 Esdras 7:28-30.

For my son the Messiah shall be revealed with those who are with him, and those who remain shall rejoice four hundred years. After those years my Messiah shall die, and all who draw human breath. Then the world shall be turned back to primeval silence for seven days, as it was at the first beginnings, so that no one shall be left.
​

The above is false for the following reasons:

1. We know the Messiah was not here for 400 years, after which he died (Luke 3:1, 23; 23:1).

2. When the Messiah did die, everyone else ("all who draw human breath") did not die also (Matthew 27-28).

Furthermore, 2 Esdras 7:61 goes directly against the character of God. God is supposedly speaking and says, "I will not grieve over the great number of those who perish." This is not the God of the Bible. Please see Isaiah 15:2; 16:11; Jeremiah 9:1-3; 48:31, 36; Ezekiel 33:11.

2 Esdras 8:59-60 says,

For just as the things that I have predicted await you, so the thirst and torment that are prepared await them. For the Most High did not intend that anyone should be destroyed; but those who were created have themselves defiled the name of him who made them, and have been ungrateful to him who prepared life for them now.
​

This is contrary to Proverbs 16:4; Psalm 92:6-7; & Romans 9:22 ("vessels of wrath prepared for destruction").

 

[trust_in_the_name]

[SIZE=+2]4 Maccabees[/SIZE]

This book goes into more detail about the martyrdom of the seven sons and their mother which 2 Maccabees writes about. It also writes about the martyrdom of an old man named Eleazar.

In chapter 3, there is a fictitious account of David's desire for a drink from the well in Bethlehem. It describes him as having this "irrational desire" and being "extremely thirsty".

. . . the king was extremely thirsty, and though springs were plentiful there, he could not satisfy his thirst from them. But a certain irrational desire for the water in the enemy's territory tormented and inflamed him, undid and consumed him. When his guards complained bitterly because of the king's craving, two staunch young soldiers, respecting the king's desire, armed themselves fully, and taking a pitcher climbed over the enemy's ramparts. (4 Maccabees 3:10-12)
​

This is not at all what took place. Please see 2 Samuel 23:13-17 (also, note that there were three soldiers, not two).

Finally, the worst error in this book is that it exalts philosophy and reason.

4 Maccabees begins with,

The subject that I am about to discuss is most philosophical, that is, whether devout reason is sovereign over the emotions. So it is right for me to advise you to pay earnest attention to philosophy. (1:1)
​

Paul basically says the opposite of this. He warns against philosophy in Colossians 2:8. 4 Maccabees goes on,

For the subject is essential to everyone who is seeking knowledge, and in addition it includes the praise of the highest virtue- I mean, of course, rational judgment. (1:2)
​

So, the writer of 4 Maccabees calls rational judgment "the highest virtue". What is the highest virtue? It is not reason. It is love. Please see 1 Corinthians 13:1f and Matthew 22:37-40.

In chapter 2, 4 Maccabees basically makes reason out to be the savior.

It is for this reason, certainly, that the temperate Joseph is praised, because by mental effort he overcame sexual desire. For when he was young and in his prime for intercourse, by his reason he nullified the frenzy of the passions. Not only is reason proved to rule over the frenzied urge of sexual desire, but also over every desire. (2:2-4)
​

Scripture says it is by the Spirit that one overcomes sin (Galatians 5:16). Mental effort will lead to failure, because our reasoning capabilities will reason us right into wickedness (Jeremiah 17:9)!

This teaching is a "destructive heresy", because it encourages people to trust in themselves, in their own mental effort, and this will lead to disaster, Proverbs 28:26.

This completes the books of what is called The Apocrypha. The bottom line to all this is: We should not be surprised to see no written revelation between Malachi and Matthew. In fact, we should expect this, because God wrote concerning this time period in Amos 8:11-12.

"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord God, "That I will send a famine on the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the Lord, but shall not find it."
​

 

[trust_in_the_name]

So, since the Apocrypha teaches against scripture, we know that it cannot be scripture.

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear friend, You can quote from the "Apocrypha" (sic) all you like, and try to prove it is in error and not canonical. But if you, as a Protestant, say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "And the Son", you make Christ a liar, and ignore the fact that He said "who proceedeth from the Father". Period. The majority of Protestants follow Augustine of Hippo and the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) and say "and the Son". This is a FALSE DOCTRINE REGARDING THE PROCESSION OF THE SPIRIT IN THE TRINITY. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[trust_in_the_name]

Dear friend, You can quote from the "Apocrypha" (sic) all you like, and try to prove it is in error and not canonical. But if you, as a Protestant, say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "And the Son", you make Christ a liar, and ignore the fact that He said "who proceedeth from the Father". Period.

I simply believe what scripture teaches on the matter.

The majority of Protestants

I'm a Christian, not a Protestant.

follow Augustine of Hippo and the RCC (Roman Catholic Church)

Neither of which are in the truth.

and say "and the Son". This is a FALSE DOCTRINE REGARDING THE PROCESSION OF THE SPIRIT IN THE TRINITY. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[mpaper345]

Studying the scriptures is our authority on how to better ourselves spiritually,and not anything else added unto it,for if you say it is something else,you add to the Bible.

God did say study to show yourselves approved of God,a workman that needs not to be ashamed,rightly dividing the word of truth.

Some people like to add to it and say we need some other reading material to add to it to better equip us to be a better saint.

It is like the Bible says that we are complete in Christ,whch means that all we need from God we can find in Christ alone,but some people say we need Mary or a dead saint to pray for us.

The truth is salvation is a free gift from God,which the works we do before we accept Christ,will not get us to heaven,but only by accepting Christ,but the Catholics are right,when you are saved you have to have works to maintain your salvation,for the Bible says that a person is justified by works,and not by faith alone,and faith without works is dead,and dead faith is no salvation.

The Bible says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,which means we have to make sure we keep doing what is rght and required of God to maintain salvation,for the Spirit is not going to twist our arm to live for God right,but will convict us and help us in our walk,but our walk with God is something we have to progress at.

These works are works of the Spirit and we are prepared unto all good works.

Some people do not understand what not saved by works means.It is saying that any works we do to try to get to heaven apart from Christ,will not grant us access to heaven for then we are a robber and a thief.It is not talking about after we come to Christ we are not saved by works,but trying to get to heaven without Christ,like people who only go by the Old Testament or false religions.All their works will not get them to heaven,but only by accepting Christ as their savior,and then when they are saved,they have to have works to be justified and have faith activated in their life,which are works that are good.

I am not Catholic but we do have to have works to be justified and have faith activated in our life,for the Bible says a man is justified by his works,and not be faith alone,and they understand that not saved by works is not talking after we come to Christ,but trying to get to heaven by works apart from Christ,that is a good thing if they understand that.

We cannot believe not saved by works after we come to Christ when the Bible says a man is justified by his works,and not faith alone,for then you have a contradiction in scriptures,so not saved by works before we come to Christ,and saved by works after we come to Christ,which that stops the contradiction.

Saved by works,I will say we are saved by Jesus Christ,repenting of our sins,having them washed away,and receiving the Spirit,and after we are saved,works to have faith activated in our life,for whoever does not produce fruit the Father will cast away,for you cannot cease laboring for the kingdom of God,put your Bible on the shelf,and think you can have salvation,not lifting a finger again to labor for the kingdom of God,so then it is common sense you have to have works,and these works are laboring for the kingdom of God,doing good,and not some traditions of the Church that God does not require us to do.

 

[dscherck]

if they were the same why do they believe different things. Jesus is my center. Jesus is my life. my salvation relies on my relationship with Him. Catholics do not have Jesus as their center, they also worship mary and the saints. people who they say have godly powers like God. that's idolatry. please read my last post with a very detailed description of this. what you're saying is almost the same as saying all religions are equal, because if that's what you think, then you haven't been listening or studying as much as you should.

I was raised as a Protestant. And while I have no doubt that the majority of Protestant Christendom is filled with people who are utterly devoted to the Lord, there is also no doubt in my mind that the Catholic faith is completely and utterly centered on the worship of Our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ. I've read many many articles like the original post, and it's obvious that there are still many people who are completely confused about what the Catholic Church actually teaches and are busy arguing against a mistaken belief about what Catholic Christianity teaches.

 

[DanuckInUSA]

Interesting quote from Benedict. I disagree. Christ took away my life and gave me His. So much for inerrancy

 

[JimM1228]

Interesting quote from Benedict. I disagree. Christ took away my life and gave me His. So much for inerrancy

in response to your earlier post which i couldnt find for some reason, i didnt make this to divide our faiths. but as something to challenge our beliefs. i was raised catholic with alot of questions. now i am born again with answers. so this makes sense to me, not saying Catholicism is wrong entirely or they have no ground on their system. however there are two main things that are practiced that i dont understand.

 

[DanuckInUSA]

I am there. I believe Catholicism has a lot of wisdom the immaculate conception and inerrancy of the pope are my issues

 

[JimM1228]

"mother mary", the saints, and works and rituals are needed for salvation are mine. as well as only receiving forgiveness by saying a prayer 10 times after confessing to a priest,not God himself. along with many other things....the list goes on... and for the record the reformation occured because the RCC was telling people to literally pay for their sin. with money....

 

[DanuckInUSA]

I get the works and rituals because at their core they are spiritual disciplines used to help you mature in Christ.