FROM A CHRISTIAN TO A CATHOLIC

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Z

Zossima

Guest
#61
1. "Catholic" is an adjective and "Christian" is a noun; the two term cannot properly be put in opposition. As stated you imply that Catholics are not Christians when what you really mean is that they are not "Bible Christians". Also, unless 2 Tim. 3:16, 17 is prophetic, it doesn't include the NT which you would say is "Scripture"; in fact, Paul plainly states what he is referring to in v. 15 and he is plainly referring to the OT. If Scripture is "perfectly and fully sufficient for everything in the Christian life," then why is the Church, not the Bible, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)? Indeed can you show me the Scripture that lists what books are to be included in Scripture? And your statement "that for a church tradition to be valid, it must be based on the clear teaching of Scripture" begs the question, "According to whose understanding?" Catholics don't see any contradictions between their traditions and Scripture because they have been taught a different understanding of Scripture than the one you hold. How one understands a particular Scripture is entirely dependent upon one's upbringing, education, experience and prejudices. You are doing a good job of generalizing statements to the point that it sounds as if your understanding of Scripture is God's understanding of it. You are not infallible so you could be wrong on a number of points but you will never learn you mistakes if you keep acting as if your understanding of Scripture is "the" understanding of Scripture.
2. You make two statements which are mutually contradictory: that "Christ is our one and only mediator" and that "both Christ and the Holy Spirit are already interceding on our behalf" cannot both be true. Obviously there is a difference between intercession and mediation here. You are creating a false dilemma. Christ is our only mediator in the sense that He is the only one who exists who is fully God and fully man. Mary is co-mediatress because it was through her that Christ took upon Himself our human nature. Obviously she has a special relationship with both God and the Son in that she is the only human being who bore the Son in her womb. Now don't get twisted up because my trinitarian terminology is unfamiliar to you.
While there is only one mediator, one god-man, Jesus Christ, there are many intercessories besides the Holy Spirit and Christ. If you Bible Christians really believe what you say, then why in the world do you pray for one another? As soon as you offer a prayer for another, you have become an intercessory and depending on how you word it, you may be placing yourself as mediator.
If we were in a doctor's office and I asked you for a magazine, you would probably hand me a publication made out of cheap paper. If we were on the battlefield and I asked you for a magazine, you would probably hand me a box of ammo. The difference in meaning isn't in the word itself but in the context in which it is used. Proving differences between Catholics and Bible Christians doesn't prove one right and the other wrong. If Catholicism is wrong, you will have to study it to the point that you know it so thoroughly you can justifiably claim to have found an inherent contradiction: Catholicism says thus and so but it also claims this and both cannot be true. All you are doing is comparing apples and oranges and stating the obvious. An apple isn't wrong for being an apple nor is an orange wrong for being an orange but try to make an apple pie with oranges or make orange juice with apples there are going to be problems.
3. You are almost correct concerning the Catholic view of salvation. It is better said that salvation is past (justification), present (sanctification) and future (glorification). Sadly, your description of salvation demonstrates a profound misunderstanding or lack of understanding of our true humanity. You see, there were two divisions in the Fall: a division in mankind between Adam and Eve as well as a division between God and mankind. True salvation overcomes both divisions. The "new creation" you speak of is not an individual human restored to God; it is the Church which reunites both divisions. You probably don't see any need for the Church in salvation because you don't understand the full consequences of the Fall.
In closing, if you spent half as much effort in trying to understand Catholicism as you spend in trying to prove it wrong, you might actually learn something. The difference between you and a Catholic isn't that he doesn't follow the Bible and you do. Each of you follows a different tradition by which you interpret the Bible. Until you can see that this is the real difference, you will never understand.
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#62
1. "Catholic" is an adjective and "Christian" is a noun; the two term cannot properly be put in opposition. As stated you imply that Catholics are not Christians when what you really mean is that they are not "Bible Christians". Also, unless 2 Tim. 3:16, 17 is prophetic, it doesn't include the NT which you would say is "Scripture"; in fact, Paul plainly states what he is referring to in v. 15 and he is plainly referring to the OT. If Scripture is "perfectly and fully sufficient for everything in the Christian life," then why is the Church, not the Bible, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15)? Indeed can you show me the Scripture that lists what books are to be included in Scripture? And your statement "that for a church tradition to be valid, it must be based on the clear teaching of Scripture" begs the question, "According to whose understanding?" Catholics don't see any contradictions between their traditions and Scripture because they have been taught a different understanding of Scripture than the one you hold. How one understands a particular Scripture is entirely dependent upon one's upbringing, education, experience and prejudices. You are doing a good job of generalizing statements to the point that it sounds as if your understanding of Scripture is God's understanding of it. You are not infallible so you could be wrong on a number of points but you will never learn you mistakes if you keep acting as if your understanding of Scripture is "the" understanding of Scripture.
2. You make two statements which are mutually contradictory: that "Christ is our one and only mediator" and that "both Christ and the Holy Spirit are already interceding on our behalf" cannot both be true. Obviously there is a difference between intercession and mediation here. You are creating a false dilemma. Christ is our only mediator in the sense that He is the only one who exists who is fully God and fully man. Mary is co-mediatress because it was through her that Christ took upon Himself our human nature. Obviously she has a special relationship with both God and the Son in that she is the only human being who bore the Son in her womb. Now don't get twisted up because my trinitarian terminology is unfamiliar to you.
While there is only one mediator, one god-man, Jesus Christ, there are many intercessories besides the Holy Spirit and Christ. If you Bible Christians really believe what you say, then why in the world do you pray for one another? As soon as you offer a prayer for another, you have become an intercessory and depending on how you word it, you may be placing yourself as mediator.
If we were in a doctor's office and I asked you for a magazine, you would probably hand me a publication made out of cheap paper. If we were on the battlefield and I asked you for a magazine, you would probably hand me a box of ammo. The difference in meaning isn't in the word itself but in the context in which it is used. Proving differences between Catholics and Bible Christians doesn't prove one right and the other wrong. If Catholicism is wrong, you will have to study it to the point that you know it so thoroughly you can justifiably claim to have found an inherent contradiction: Catholicism says thus and so but it also claims this and both cannot be true. All you are doing is comparing apples and oranges and stating the obvious. An apple isn't wrong for being an apple nor is an orange wrong for being an orange but try to make an apple pie with oranges or make orange juice with apples there are going to be problems.
3. You are almost correct concerning the Catholic view of salvation. It is better said that salvation is past (justification), present (sanctification) and future (glorification). Sadly, your description of salvation demonstrates a profound misunderstanding or lack of understanding of our true humanity. You see, there were two divisions in the Fall: a division in mankind between Adam and Eve as well as a division between God and mankind. True salvation overcomes both divisions. The "new creation" you speak of is not an individual human restored to God; it is the Church which reunites both divisions. You probably don't see any need for the Church in salvation because you don't understand the full consequences of the Fall.
In closing, if you spent half as much effort in trying to understand Catholicism as you spend in trying to prove it wrong, you might actually learn something. The difference between you and a Catholic isn't that he doesn't follow the Bible and you do. Each of you follows a different tradition by which you interpret the Bible. Until you can see that this is the real difference, you will never understand.
Dear Zossima. Welcome to this Christian Chat forum. Are you a Russian Orthodox Christian? If I may ask? I have attended a Russian Orthodox Church a few times. I am not yet a member. I am hoping to become a member. I have been reading Orthodox books for several years. The church near where I live is an Old Believer parish. I have not been in a Western-Rite Orthodox Church, or in a Russian Orthodox Church where they are more like the OCA, etc., so I don't know what the OCA church is like. There was an OCA church here in Erie for a while, but I believe they are no longer having services. Anyway, God bless you. God grant you many years. Through the prayers of Thy Most Pure Mother, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us. AMEN. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington PS I don't know if you are just mentioning the Roman Catholic tradition as different from Protestant, and therefore you also want to defend Russian Orthodoxy, or whether you were defending Roman Catholicism. The Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church were the same Orthodox Catholic Church for 1,054 years until they parted ways over a few doctrines and practices of Rome. And really the break didn't cement as very hard to heal until 1204 AD, when the Fourth Crusade left scars that are hard for people to forget. More recently, in the 20th century, the Croatian Ustashe in Nazi Germany's hegemony over Western and some of Eastern Europe makes it difficult for the Serbian Orthodox Church to get along well with the Croatian Catholic Church, when so many Serbs had died at the hands of forced deaths by the Croatian fascist Ustashe, or forced conversions to Roman Catholicism. The Serbs do not want to be anything other than Orthodox.

 
N

NettiM

Guest
#63
there might be different findings about catholic, christians.. in the end we all believe in the one god
 
M

Maronite

Guest
#64
It does seem to come down to Christian traditions doesn't it? For some its Sacred Scripture alone. For others its Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. We all follow some sort of guidance whether its a Reformation Theology or a Catholic/Orthodox Theology depends on how we worship. We're all sinners seeking salvation.
Sincerely,
Maronite
 
S

Scotth1960

Guest
#65
and I also think Catholic was one of the first beliefs of Christianity back then. Before there was a Baptist faith there was a Catholic faith....actually i think the apostles were Catholic.
Before there were Baptists, there were Orthodox Catholic Christians, in communion with Rome and Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. They were papal (Latin) and Greek (Orthodox), but not papist. Papism developed slowly, and led to the heresy of papal infallibility in Rome in 1870 AD at Vatican I. The Early Church believed in the Catholic Faith and the Orthodox Faith, and these were the same Faith and Church, in full communion between Rome and Constantinople, etc., without the Filioque heresy. The Filioque heresy developed slowly, and was only intended as a private opinion of Augustine of Hippo, a theologoumenon only, and not a dogma required for all Christians. After 1014 AD, and after 1054 AD, the popes of Rome made it a dogma, and with Thomas Aquinas in the middle ages, it was viewed to be even necessary for salvation! Go figure! For the true Church, the Filioque is and has always been anathema! Forbidden! Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington