-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Bottom line here is:
God needed Adam to sin in order make the cross work. No sin. No need for the cross.
So he planted the iniquity in Adam. "I need that fruit."
God needed Adam to sin in order make the cross work. No sin. No need for the cross.
So he planted the iniquity in Adam. "I need that fruit."
Your error lies in concocting your own explanation of God's sovereignty in ordaining sin, rather than taking its explanation from Scripture.
God is not the author of sin.
God is not responsible for Adam's sin, only Adam is.
God is responsible only for creating Adam with free will, and with emotions (passions), which can conflict with God's will (law).
However, Adam had true free will, which is the moral power to choose God's law over his own emotions.
However, he chose the creature over the Creator.
That does not make God the author of sin, nor responsible for Adam's sin, even though God did ordain sin, for the sovereign God is in control of everything in his creation. Nothing occurs outside his control.
So your unBiblical explanation is not necessary.
J
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
"Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning. . ." (2Co 11:3)
Again, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
God's word written disagrees with you on two points:
1) Adam was not created with iniquity.
"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." (Ge 1:31)
No iniquity there.
2) And there is no inquity apart from transgression of the law, because iniquity (Gr. anomia) means transgression of the law (1Jn 3:4).
It was not Adam's "wanting" that was iniqiuity, but Adam's actual transgression of God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it," that was his iniquity.
It is absurd to say that Adam was created with iniquity.
Iniquity is transgression of God's law (1Jn 3:4).
How could Adam transgress God's law before he was created, so that he was created in transgression (iniquity)?
Satan wanted them to disobey God and suffer the consequences of God's judgment on their sin of disobedience.
Again, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
Scripture states neither that Adam had already eaten from the tree, nor a lapse of time between vv. 16 and 17.
None of the four points above are found in the Scriptures.
They are pure conjecture by you.
Again, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
This verse plainly states that Adam's iniquity was his transgression of God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
Adam's iniquity was not his "wanting" the fruit.
You misunderstand and misuse Job 31:33 to support your conjecture.
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
"Do not go beyond what is written." (1Co 4:6)
"Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning. . ." (2Co 11:3)
Again, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
God's word written disagrees with you on two points:
1) Adam was not created with iniquity.
"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." (Ge 1:31)
No iniquity there.
2) And there is no inquity apart from transgression of the law, because iniquity (Gr. anomia) means transgression of the law (1Jn 3:4).
It was not Adam's "wanting" that was iniqiuity, but Adam's actual transgression of God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it," that was his iniquity.
It is absurd to say that Adam was created with iniquity.
Iniquity is transgression of God's law (1Jn 3:4).
How could Adam transgress God's law before he was created, so that he was created in transgression (iniquity)?
Satan wanted them to disobey God and suffer the consequences of God's judgment on their sin of disobedience.
Again, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
Scripture states neither that Adam had already eaten from the tree, nor a lapse of time between vv. 16 and 17.
None of the four points above are found in the Scriptures.
They are pure conjecture by you.
Again, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
This verse plainly states that Adam's iniquity was his transgression of God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
Adam's iniquity was not his "wanting" the fruit.
You misunderstand and misuse Job 31:33 to support your conjecture.
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
"Do not go beyond what is written." (1Co 4:6)
I never said Adam was created with iniquity . In fact , it is the iniquity that is being created.
J
"Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning. . ." (2Co 11:3)
Then God didn't create Adam with iniquity if no sin was allowed in the garden, and you are
contradicting yourself.
Then God didn't create Adam with iniquity if no sin was allowed in the garden, and you are
contradicting yourself.
J
You are correct in your understanding that God is sovereign and, therefore, sin was ordained by God.
Your error lies in concocting your own explanation of God's sovereignty in ordaining sin, rather than taking its explanation from Scripture.
God is not the author of sin.
God is not responsible for Adam's sin, only Adam is.
God is responsible only for creating Adam with free will, and with emotions (passions), which can conflict with God's will (law).
However, Adam had true free will, which is the moral power to choose God's law over his own emotions.
However, he chose the creature over the Creator.
That does not make God the author of sin, nor responsible for Adam's sin, even though God did ordain sin, for the sovereign God is in control of everything in his creation. Nothing occurs outside his control.
So your unBiblical explanation is not necessary.
Your error lies in concocting your own explanation of God's sovereignty in ordaining sin, rather than taking its explanation from Scripture.
God is not the author of sin.
God is not responsible for Adam's sin, only Adam is.
God is responsible only for creating Adam with free will, and with emotions (passions), which can conflict with God's will (law).
However, Adam had true free will, which is the moral power to choose God's law over his own emotions.
However, he chose the creature over the Creator.
That does not make God the author of sin, nor responsible for Adam's sin, even though God did ordain sin, for the sovereign God is in control of everything in his creation. Nothing occurs outside his control.
So your unBiblical explanation is not necessary.
Exodus 34:7 & 9 clearly separate and put into order of execution iniquity transgression and sin. Iniquity leads to transgression which leads to sin .
However, Scripture does not follow through with them as separate.
The same Hebrew word avon is used for "iniquity" in Ex 34:7, and for "sin" in 1Kgs 17:18.
And the same Hebrew word pesha is used for "transgression" in Ex 34:7, and for "sin" in Prov 28:13.
The meaning of avon (iniquity, sin) is "perversity," an offense, intentional or not, against the law.
The meaning of pesha (transgression, sin) is "rebellion," a willful deviation from, and rebellion against, the path of godly living.
The Jewish writers of the NT likewise use iniquity, transgression and sin diversely.
The Greek word anomia used for "iniquity," is used in a way which indicates the meaning as being "lawlessness," (which is transgression--1Jn 3:4), or "wickedness," as in Mt 7:23; Ro 6:19.
The Greek word paranomia, whose meaning is "transgression," is used for "iniquity" in 2Pe 2:16.
The Greek word hamartema, whose meaning is "transgression," disobedience to the law, is used for "sin" in Mk 3:28.
There is no hard tight usage of iniquity, transgression and sin in Scripture that supports your hard tight separation of them.
With full free will and the power to choose God over Eve, Adam's iniquity was not desiring Eve, but his action of choosing Eve, because he could have desired Eve, and still chosen God, wherein there would be no iniquity.
I guess my attempt to give to my fellow Christians that which I have received through the Holy Spirit is futile to those who are unwilling to search their own souls and ask the only true witness to the Father's plan.
Jesus' NT revelation (Heb 1:1-2) says that the word of God written (word of the prophets) is more certain than the extra Biblical witness of the voice of God the apostles heard at the transfiguration (2Pe 1:16-19).
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures." (Mt 22:29)
I understand that God planting iniquity in Adam is anti-Biblical.
The only way you can get iniquity into the heart of God's perfect creature is your anti-Biblical assertion that "God planted iniquity in Adam."
However, knowing the Scriptures (Mt 22:29) does not allow one to make God the author of Adam's sin.
For knowing the Scriptures informs that all sin (Heb avon in 1Kgs 17:18; iniquity in Ex 34:7) is lawlessness (1Jn 3:4), or "transgression" (Heb pesha in Ex 34:7; sin in Pr 28:13), and that Adam sinned only when he transgressed God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
For Adam had perfect free will and could have chosen the Creator over his desire for the creature.
The transgression lies solely in Adam's choice to disobey God when, unlike fallen mankind now, he had full moral power and full unrestrained freedom to obey him.
Knowing the Scriptures informs of the true nature of Adam's sin, and does not make God the author of Adam's sin by "planting iniquity in Adam."
Last edited:
J
Your anti-Biblical error of making God the author of Adam's sin is driven by your insistence that Ex 34:7 states a hard and fast order of execution in "inquity, transgression and sin", which must begin with iniquity in the heart.
The only way you can get iniquity into the heart of God's perfect creature is your anti-Biblical assertion that "God planted iniquity in Adam."
However, knowing the Scriptures (Mt 22:29) does not allow one to make God the author of Adam's sin.
For knowing the Scriptures informs that all sin (Heb avon in 1Kgs 17:18; iniquity in Ex 34:7) is lawlessness (1Jn 3:4), or "transgression" (Heb pesha in Ex 34:7; sin in Pr 28:13), and that Adam sinned only when he transgressed God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
For Adam had perfect free will and could have chosen the Creator over his desire for the creature.
The transgression lies solely in Adam's choice to disobey God when, unlike fallen mankind now, he had full moral power and full unrestrained freedom to obey him.
Knowing the Scriptures informs of the true nature of Adam's sin, and does not make God the author of Adam's sin by "planting iniquity in Adam."
The only way you can get iniquity into the heart of God's perfect creature is your anti-Biblical assertion that "God planted iniquity in Adam."
However, knowing the Scriptures (Mt 22:29) does not allow one to make God the author of Adam's sin.
For knowing the Scriptures informs that all sin (Heb avon in 1Kgs 17:18; iniquity in Ex 34:7) is lawlessness (1Jn 3:4), or "transgression" (Heb pesha in Ex 34:7; sin in Pr 28:13), and that Adam sinned only when he transgressed God's law, "Thou shalt not eat of it."
For Adam had perfect free will and could have chosen the Creator over his desire for the creature.
The transgression lies solely in Adam's choice to disobey God when, unlike fallen mankind now, he had full moral power and full unrestrained freedom to obey him.
Knowing the Scriptures informs of the true nature of Adam's sin, and does not make God the author of Adam's sin by "planting iniquity in Adam."
Mat 6:13 KJV - And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Gen 2:17 KJV - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam was told that he couldn't.
What caused the transgression?
Mat 5:27 KJV - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 KJV - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:28 KJV - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The words iniquity, sin and transgression are not in the Bible before Ge 3.
Iniquity is sin (Heb. avon, in 1Kgs 17:18 and Ex 34:7).
Iniquity is only in the heart of fallen man.
It was not in the heart of God's perfect creature.
Adam's transgression resulted in a corrupt human nature, and that corrupt nature is the source of all mankind's iniquity.
Iniquity did not exist until the fall of man into corruption by disobedience.
From thenceforth, all iniquity in the Bible refers to fallen man, never to God's perfect man prior to his fall.
J
Your error is positing "iniquity" before the Bible does.
The words iniquity, sin and transgression are not in the Bible before Ge 3.
Iniquity is sin (Heb. avon, in 1Kgs 17:18 and Ex 34:7).
Iniquity is only in the heart of fallen man.
It was not in the heart of God's perfect creature.
Adam's transgression resulted in a corrupt human nature, and that corrupt nature is the source of all mankind's iniquity.
Iniquity did not exist until the fall of man into corruption by disobedience.
From thenceforth, all iniquity in the Bible refers to fallen man, never to God's perfect man prior to his fall.
The words iniquity, sin and transgression are not in the Bible before Ge 3.
Iniquity is sin (Heb. avon, in 1Kgs 17:18 and Ex 34:7).
Iniquity is only in the heart of fallen man.
It was not in the heart of God's perfect creature.
Adam's transgression resulted in a corrupt human nature, and that corrupt nature is the source of all mankind's iniquity.
Iniquity did not exist until the fall of man into corruption by disobedience.
From thenceforth, all iniquity in the Bible refers to fallen man, never to God's perfect man prior to his fall.
Gen 4:6 KJV - And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 KJV - If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain was plotting the murder of Abel at this point. He did not discuss it, it was all thought. Adam did not discuss eating from the tree, it was all thought. God had told him not to eat of the tree, already knowing that he would.
Mat 9:3 KJV - And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man] blasphemeth.
Mat 9:4 KJV - And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Luk 5:21 KJV - And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Luk 5:22 KJV - But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
Luk 24:36 KJV - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
Luk 24:37 KJV - But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 KJV - And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Isa 55:8 KJV - For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 KJV - For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God is omnipotus, and omnipresent. Knowing all men, and all things by way of the Father.
The Father is the designer. The I Am is the creator. Jehovah does nothing without consent from the Father.
Jhn 14:10 KJV - Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Gen 1:26 KJV - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 11:7 KJV - Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Without God there is no iniquity. Without iniquity there is no transgression. Iniquity comes from the soul. It causes one to transgress the law. the only way to transgress the law is sin.
Gen 4:6 KJV - And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 KJV - If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain was plotting the murder of Abel at this point. He did not discuss it, it was all thought. Adam did not discuss eating from the tree, it was all thought. God had told him not to eat of the tree, already knowing that he would.
Mat 9:3 KJV - And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man] blasphemeth.
Mat 9:4 KJV - And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Luk 5:21 KJV - And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Luk 5:22 KJV - But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
Luk 24:36 KJV - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
Luk 24:37 KJV - But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 KJV - And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Isa 55:8 KJV - For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 KJV - For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God is omnipotus, and omnipresent. Knowing all men, and all things by way of the Father.
The Father is the designer. The I Am is the creator. Jehovah does nothing without consent from the Father.
Jhn 14:10 KJV - Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Gen 1:26 KJV - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 11:7 KJV - Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 4:6 KJV - And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 KJV - If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain was plotting the murder of Abel at this point. He did not discuss it, it was all thought. Adam did not discuss eating from the tree, it was all thought. God had told him not to eat of the tree, already knowing that he would.
Mat 9:3 KJV - And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man] blasphemeth.
Mat 9:4 KJV - And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Luk 5:21 KJV - And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Luk 5:22 KJV - But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
Luk 24:36 KJV - And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
Luk 24:37 KJV - But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38 KJV - And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Isa 55:8 KJV - For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 KJV - For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
God is omnipotus, and omnipresent. Knowing all men, and all things by way of the Father.
The Father is the designer. The I Am is the creator. Jehovah does nothing without consent from the Father.
Jhn 14:10 KJV - Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Gen 1:26 KJV - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 11:7 KJV - Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
J
Covered here, at my second response.
You keep saying this and I keep giving you Scripture that proves it.
Jhn 5:37 KJV - And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Jhn 5:38 KJV - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Jhn 5:39 KJV - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jhn 5:40 KJV - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Covered here, at my second response.