Genesis 3:16 He will rule over you.

[JohnR7]

But Paul said that the wife shall submit to the husband,

Just as the husband is to submit to Christ. So her submission is to Christ not her husband. If he asks her to do something ungodly she is not to submit to that. So she is only to submit to her husband to the degree that he is in submission to Christ.

 

[proverbs35]

Men, women, husbands and wives are equal in value - worth.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

Men, women, husbands and wives are equal partners in God's gift of new life.

In the same way, you husbands must give honor to your wives. Treat your wife with understanding as you live together. She may be weaker than you are, but she is your EQUAL PARTNER in God’s gift of new life. Treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered. 1 Peter 3:7

Genesis 3:16 Message Bible
16 He told the Woman: “I’ll multiply your pains in childbirth; you’ll give birth to your babies in pain. You’ll want to please your husband but he’ll lord it over you.”

The Hebrew word used in Genesis 3:16 is 4910 Mashal.
It means to master, lord over, have dominion.
https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/dominion.html

Men dominating women and husbands dominating wives is a result of sin and the fall of mankind. As a result of sin and the fall, countless men reduce marriage to nothing more than a master slave relationship. That is not God's plan for marriage.

An overseer must rule (manage, lead) his own family well. 1 Tim 3:4
Some translations use rule. Some use manage. Others use lead in 1 Tim 3:4.
The Greek word is 4291 proiste'mi.
Thayer's Definition

1. to set or place before
2. 1. to set over
   2. to be over, to superintend, preside over
   3. to be a protector or guardian
      1. to give aid
   4. to care for, give attention to
   5. 1. profess honest occupations

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/4291.html

Husbands are instructed to rule, manage and lead by

- LOVING their wives, just as Christ loved the church. Eph 5:25

- LOVING their wives as their own bodies. Ephesians 5:28

- LOVING their wives like they love themselves. Eph 5:34

- DYING for their wives. Ephesians 5:25

- NOURISHING and CHERISHING their wives. Eph 5:29

- not being harsh with their wives. Col 3:19

- PRAISING their wives for their good deeds. Pro 31:28

- TRUSTING their wives, if they are virtuous. Pro 31:11

- HONORING their wives. 1 Pet 3:7

- dwelling with their wives in an UNDERSTANDING way. 1 Pet 3:7

- Recognizing and treating their wives as equal partners of God's gift of new life. 1 Pet 3:7

- being FAITHFUL to their wives. Pro 5:15

- not having sex with other women. Pro 5:17

- begin content with the wives they married when they were young. Pro 5:18

- being attracted to their own wives and staying deeply in love. Pro 5:19

Wives are instructed to submit to their own husbands. Ephesians 5:22 That has not changed.

 

[JamOn]

Esther 1 is quite the interesting story about King Xerxes, was he a holy man, but anyhow the decree he orders across a vast kingdom about women should honor their husbands could this story have produced a whole doctrine. he was furious because Queen Vashti didn’t want to be made a spectacle in front of people sparked a debate about other women doing to same in the Bible story of king Xerxes.

 

[JohnR7]

The ground produces weeds.

I have a lot of weeds in my yard and I can not seem to get rid of them. I am about ready to give up trying to get rid of them.

 

[presidente]

I have a lot of weeds in my yard and I can not seem to get rid of them. I am about ready to give up trying to get rid of them.

Dandelions and clover are edible. If you harvest them enough and not the grass, you may have fewer of them. I'm thinking of one day having a lawn just of clover.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus did not redeem us from the law. He redeemed us from the curse of the law. He fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law for us. Sin is like a debt and our debt was more than we could pay. So he paid the price for us. We charge it all to His account.

Do you believe, as is suggested in your OP, that the "curse of the law" Christ redeemed us from has anything to do with what God told Eve in Gen 3:16 as opposed to the law given at Mt. Sinai?

 

[presidente]

This gave me a chuckle. While sometimes I suspect that women are in cahoots about some things, I think it's inadvertent, and the profound discomfort of childbirth is not among them. I was present for both my children's births; why any woman would go to such lengths to perpetuate such a scam is beyond me.

Are you being ironic? Your wife must have had a couple of epidurals. Even so, I would be surprised if you could say that seriously. If you watched your wife have one without an epidural, you might change your mind. An epidural wasn't available in one hospital overseas where we had one of our children. My wife thought she was going to die.

 

[presidente]

That's exactly how I read it: that because of the fall, men will dominate ("rule over") their wives, and we see that both within Christendom and across the broader society. The horrid truth of it is played out daily among followers of false religions, where wives are manipulated, oppressed, beaten, raped, tortured, and murdered... and all but the last two happen among "Christians" as well. It also means that, generally, men will dominate women. As an aggregate, women are physically weaker than men (hence Peter's comment) but otherwise there is no difference in capacity, particularly in the Church.

I understand that conscientious Christians differ on this, but I see the complementarian position as an unfortunate fulfillment of this declaration. Here we are, equally redeemed in Christ, and yet some are less equal than others. To me, no amount of bleating "equal but different" removes the implicit inequality. What I also see consistently is that complementarians are quick to denigrate and even demonize those who disagree with them. That to me serves as additional evidence that their position is wrong.

One of my concerns about this issue is when someone posts for wives to submit to their husbands on a forum like this, within a short period of time, someone else is likely to mention wife-beating or some other form of violence. It reminds me of Godwin's law that if an Internet discussion goes on long enough that someone will bring up Hitler or the Nazis. (Am I the first in this thread?) The feminists have programmed people to associate Biblical teachings on wives submitting to their husbands with violence. Domestic violence is a problem for those who experience it, of course. But apparently, there is some data indicating that about 40% of it is female on male, and female on male violence is under reported because what man is going to call the police and tell them his wife is hitting him. Some domestic violece cases are men fighting back against violent women, too. There is a domestic violence industry in the charity sphere. Much of it is run by feminists. Some of their models of domestic abuse include relatively normal male behaviors and even quoting scripture about the roles of wives in the home, as if it were immoral or abusive to do so.

The Bible does teach wives submit to their husbands and to follow Sarah's example who obeyed Abraham calling him lord-- which implies a wife's submission should include obedience to her husband. The Bible tells wives to fear/reverence their husbands. The Bible commands husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church, and to honor the wife as the weaker vessel that their prayers be not hindered.

If one hears somoene say 'wives submit to your husbands' and automatically assumes the one who says those words must be abusive toward his wife, that is some wrong thinking.

 

[presidente]

Having said that, I would never tell a woman who had assistance through childbirth that she was "in kahoots on the biggest scam in history".

That would not be very wise or very nice.

 

[presidente]

Do you believe, as is suggested in your OP, that the "curse of the law" Christ redeemed us from has anything to do with what God told Eve in Gen 3:16 as opposed to the law given at Mt. Sinai?

 

[presidente]

Paul tells us what the curse of the law is in Galatians 3:10. He quotes it.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[Dino246]

One of my concerns about this issue is when someone posts for wives to submit to their husbands on a forum like this, within a short period of time, someone else is likely to mention wife-beating or some other form of violence. It reminds me of Godwin's law that if an Internet discussion goes on long enough that someone will bring up Hitler or the Nazis. (Am I the first in this thread?) The feminists have programmed people to associate Biblical teachings on wives submitting to their husbands with violence. Domestic violence is a problem for those who experience it, of course. But apparently, there is some data indicating that about 40% of it is female on male, and female on male violence is under reported because what man is going to call the police and tell them his wife is hitting him. Some domestic violece cases are men fighting back against violent women, too. There is a domestic violence industry in the charity sphere. Much of it is run by feminists. Some of their models of domestic abuse include relatively normal male behaviors and even quoting scripture about the roles of wives in the home, as if it were immoral or abusive to do so.

The Bible does teach wives submit to their husbands and to follow Sarah's example who obeyed Abraham calling him lord-- which implies a wife's submission should include obedience to her husband. The Bible tells wives to fear/reverence their husbands. The Bible commands husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church, and to honor the wife as the weaker vessel that their prayers be not hindered.

If one hears somoene say 'wives submit to your husbands' and automatically assumes the one who says those words must be abusive toward his wife, that is some wrong thinking.

Thank you for stating these things in your first paragraph (italicized). This topic deserves a thread on its own, so I won't discuss further here.

 

[Dino246]

Are you being ironic? Your wife must have had a couple of epidurals. Even so, I would be surprised if you could say that seriously. If you watched your wife have one without an epidural, you might change your mind. An epidural wasn't available in one hospital overseas where we had one of our children. My wife thought she was going to die.

Respectfully, I think you missed the subtlety. The ex had extremely painful labour for 12 hours with our first, but had decided beforehand not to have an epidural.

 

[JohnR7]

Do you believe, as is suggested in your OP, that the "curse of the law" Christ redeemed us from has anything to do with what God told Eve in Gen 3:16 as opposed to the law given at Mt. Sinai?

There are different ways we can go with this. Do you mean like Romans 2:14,15 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them".

Another approach is the oral law that some say goes back to Moses, some say Abraham and some say the oral law goes all the way back to Adam. We know that during the time from Adam to Moses people did what seemed right to them in their own eyes and they made pretty much a mess out of things.

 

[JohnR7]

someone else is likely to mention wife-beating

In the city I live in if the police get a call to investigate abuse the sargent himself goes out to talk to the people. He personally talks to the person claiming to be abused to see if there is any substance to the claim. If someone is free to go and they stay in a situation then the police are not going to give you much sympathy. They are there to get you out if you want to get out of that situation.

 

[JohnR7]

I'm thinking of one day having a lawn just of clover.

I have a lot of clover and I trim it halfway down with the weed wacker. It tends to grow in patches.

 

[Dino246]

In the city I live in if the police get a call to investigate abuse the sargent himself goes out to talk to the people. He personally talks to the person claiming to be abused to see if there is any substance to the claim. If someone is free to go and they stay in a situation then the police are not going to give you much sympathy. They are there to get you out if you want to get out of that situation.

That approach is unusual. Many police officers are trained in the "Duluth Model" which teaches that women are never the abusers. The injustice resulting from that is profound.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

There are different ways we can go with this.

I just wondered why you stated in OP that Gen 3:16 had anything to do with Gal 3:13. You clearly understood that the law referred to in Gal 3:13 is the law "given to Moses at Mt. Sinai" - Post #27.

At the time Adam/Eve ate of the tree, the only "law" was that which was written in Gen 2:16-17.

What God told Eve in Gen 3:16 resulted from Eve having eaten of the tree knowledge of good and evil. Gen 3:16 was God telling Eve the consequence of her having eaten of the tree.

Do you mean like Romans 2:14,15 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them".

Rom 2:15 explains that the work of the law is written on the heart. That is why it was and is possible for those who have no knowledge of the law do by nature what the law requires.

Another approach is the oral law that some say goes back to Moses, some say Abraham and some say the oral law goes all the way back to Adam. We know that during the time from Adam to Moses people did what seemed right to them in their own eyes and they made pretty much a mess out of things.

We read in Rom 5:13-14 that until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses ...

I believe that the truth of redemption is written in the stars and it was up to one generation to tell the next generation the truth concerning redemption. Parents would go out with their children, look up to the heavens and teach their children. As time passed, information was forgotten ... tradition replaced truth ... satan worked his lies, and corrupted the truth. Astrology and the zodiac are the result of satan's corruption ... as well as the tower of babel.

 

[kaylagrl]

Should the women go through natural childbirth and not try to avoid the pain?

Should a man get a vasectomy without anesthesia? You're the leaders after all.

 

[Diakonos]

Should a man get a vasectomy without anesthesia? You're the leaders after all.

Did Jesus accept the Gaul when He was on the cross?