Genesis 6:1-2 Revisited. Unredeemable

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crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
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#1
I know this topic has been ruminated over and over but a thought hit me the other day and I have not heard it discussed.
If it actually was angels that procreated with the daughters of men then the offspring (Nephilim?) would be unredeemable since they were half men/half angel.
Jesus didn't die for the angels. How could they be judged as men?
Comments?
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
725
113
#2
I know this topic has been ruminated over and over but a thought hit me the other day and I have not heard it discussed.
If it actually was angels that procreated with the daughters of men then the offspring (Nephilim?) would be unredeemable since they were half men/half angel.
Jesus didn't die for the angels. How could they be judged as men?
Comments?
Some think they died and are now the demons that seek human bodies to occupy. (Stephen Heiser, The Unseen Realm).
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
717
347
63
#3
I know this topic has been ruminated over and over but a thought hit me the other day and I have not heard it discussed.
If it actually was angels that procreated with the daughters of men then the offspring (Nephilim?) would be unredeemable since they were half men/half angel.
Jesus didn't die for the angels. How could they be judged as men?
Comments?
Even worse, if they corrupted the Messianic line, God's salvation plan would have been thwarted. This, I understand, was the reason for the abomination in the first place, God's severe judgement of it with the flood, and his severe and swift punishment of the angels who took part, to be held from repeating such wickedness until their judgement on Judgement Day (referenced in Jude).
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,115
2,674
113
#4
I know this topic has been ruminated over and over but a thought hit me the other day and I have not heard it discussed.
If it actually was angels that procreated with the daughters of men then the offspring (Nephilim?) would be unredeemable since they were half men/half angel.
Jesus didn't die for the angels. How could they be judged as men?
Comments?
The scriptures never state that the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ was made avaliable to the fallen Angels.. It was only ever stated as a gift to mankind.. So yeah the satan and the fallen angels /nephilim / sons of Anak / giants did not and do not have access to the atonement we have access to..
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,119
7,602
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#5
Some think they died and are now the demons that seek human bodies to occupy. (Stephen Heiser, The Unseen Realm).
Michael Heiser, not Stephen... unless that's his middle name. :)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
2,455
113
#6
So yeah the satan and the fallen angels /nephilim / sons of Anak / giants did not and do not have access to the atonement we have access to..
That's a huge leap of logic to assume they were not fully men and therefore unredeemable when the scriptures in many places calls them men.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
2,455
113
#7
Even worse, if they corrupted the Messianic line, God's salvation plan would have been thwarted. This, I understand, was the reason for the abomination in the first place, God's severe judgement of it with the flood, and his severe and swift punishment of the angels who took part, to be held from repeating such wickedness until their judgement on Judgement Day (referenced in Jude).
But why a coming judgment (with fire)? Aren't we just as wicked but without the 'intermarriage' of angels and men or are we to say there are 'people' walking around today 'half demon, half man' who are unredeemable?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,526
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#8
Jesus didn't die for the angels.
I don't believe anyone has said anything about the redemption of evil angels or the Nephilim. Those evil angels are locked up in Tartarus. The Nephilim were all evil.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
2,494
800
113
#9
I know this topic has been ruminated over and over but a thought hit me the other day and I have not heard it discussed.
If it actually was angels that procreated with the daughters of men then the offspring (Nephilim?) would be unredeemable since they were half men/half angel.
Jesus didn't die for the angels. How could they be judged as men?
Comments?
If everything truly happened as plainly stated, then most people would need to rethink their core theology. The whole premise of heavenly beings and the hierarchy of the Devine would take on new dimension. As always I believe Jehovah is God of gods, but the whole story would have less blanks to fill if it is as it is written, and not as it is taught.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#10
How could they be judged as men?
They were not judged as men.

This was a special case where the fate of the children was determined by the sins of the [angel] parent.

They were condemned already because of the nature of the conception - which was very specifically an evil against God.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
2,455
113
#11
I don't believe anyone has said anything about the redemption of evil angels or the Nephilim. Those evil angels are locked up in Tartarus. The Nephilim were all evil.
I was just wondering. The offspring of angels and men (if that were possible) would be irredeemable.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
2,455
113
#12
If everything truly happened as plainly stated, then most people would need to rethink their core theology. The whole premise of heavenly beings and the hierarchy of the Devine would take on new dimension. As always I believe Jehovah is God of gods, but the whole story would have less blanks to fill if it is as it is written, and not as it is taught.
See my comment above to Nehemiah.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
2,455
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#13
They were not judged as men.

This was a special case where the fate of the children was determined by the sins of the [angel] parent.

They were condemned already because of the nature of the conception - which was very specifically an evil against God.
So if demons need a body to indwell, which human males did they possess and use? Or was it some kind of 'spiritual copulation'? (which I doubt).
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,133
229
63
#14
I know this topic has been ruminated over and over but a thought hit me the other day and I have not heard it discussed.
If it actually was angels that procreated with the daughters of men then the offspring (Nephilim?) would be unredeemable since they were half men/half angel.
Jesus didn't die for the angels. How could they be judged as men?
Comments?
Isaiah 26v14 states: "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish." (KJV)

"Dead — they live not, Rephaim, they rise not, Therefore Thou hast inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, thou destroyest all their memory." (Young's Literal Translation)

The Hebrew "rephaim" is another name for the "nephilim" of Gen 6v4: "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days..."

God said that their bodies would not be resurrected on the last day as they were not human souls, but indwelt by evil spirits; Christ preached to them during His time in Hades, but none repented because they were so hardened in sin and unreconcilable.. 1Peter 3v18-20, 2Peter 2v4, Jude v6.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
2,455
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#15
Isaiah 26v14 states: "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish." (KJV)

"Dead — they live not, Rephaim, they rise not, Therefore Thou hast inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, thou destroyest all their memory." (Young's Literal Translation)

The Hebrew "rephaim" is another name for the "nephilim" of Gen 6v4: "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days..."

God said that their bodies would not be resurrected on the last day as they were not human souls, but indwelt by evil spirits; Christ preached to them during His time in Hades, but none repented because they were so hardened in sin and unreconcilable.. 1Peter 3v18-20, 2Peter 2v4, Jude v6.
Sorry, I wouldn't do hermeneutics that way.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#16
So if demons need a body to indwell, which human males did they possess and use? Or was it some kind of 'spiritual copulation'? (which I doubt).
Same general kind of thing as the conception and birth of Jesus -- except -- the Holy Spirit was supposed to be the only 'spirit' to do that. (And, only one time.)

For any other spirit to do so is no-doubt 'prime-directive'-level "strictly forbidden" by God. (Borrowing the concept from Star Trek to illustrate the 'high-level' importance of a directive from God that the angels surely knew very well.)

For an angel to do so was a "pure evil" sin against God.

Considering the extent of the virtually immediate punishment God placed upon the angels --- that is what I am thinking...
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
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#17
Same general kind of thing as the conception and birth of Jesus -- except -- the Holy Spirit was supposed to be the only 'spirit' to do that. (And, only one time.)

For any other spirit to do so is no-doubt 'prime-directive'-level "strictly forbidden" by God. (Borrowing the concept from Star Trek to illustrate the 'high-level' importance of a directive from God that the angels surely knew very well.)

For an angel to do so was a "pure evil" sin against God.

Considering the extent of the virtually immediate punishment God placed upon the angels --- that is what I am thinking...
So if demons need a body to indwell, which human males did they possess and use? Or was it some kind of 'spiritual copulation'? (which I doubt).
All assuming that a non-material spirit has the ability to intercourse with the material world. What would be stopping the demons to continue such a thing since they are already condemned and have nothing to lose?
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#18
All assuming that a non-material spirit has the ability to intercourse with the material world. What would be stopping the demons to continue such a thing since they are already condemned and have nothing to lose?
I am thinking that the children are not able to do what the [angel] parent could.

The children were - "as it were" - "bastard humans" - while the angels no-doubt have [knowledge and] abilities the children could never have.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,515
2,455
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#19
I am thinking that the children are not able to do what the [angel] parent could.

The children were - "as it were" - "bastard humans" - while the angels no-doubt have [knowledge and] abilities the children could never have.
I wasn't referring to the progeny but rather to the fallen angels of today aka 'demons'.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#20
I wasn't referring to the progeny but rather to the fallen angels of today aka 'demons'.
What if [all] demons are not "fallen angels" - but rather - are the [souls of] "bastard human" children of fallen angels from long past...?

I know that still leaves room for your question regarding "fallen angels of today"; however, then we are talking about angels and not demons.