Genesis 6:1-2 Revisited. Unredeemable

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PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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#41
More from that thread......


I have heard 3 theories on the "and also afterward" in THIS verse. All are speculative. What is NOT speculative is that the "sons of God" in Gen. 6 are fallen angels., and

Genesis 6:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 There were giants on the earth in those days, AND ALSO AFTERWARD, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.


1. There was a second (or even 3rd) incursion of fallen angels.
Seems unlikely to me after the remaining angels saw the offending angels getting tossed into Tartarus.

2. Corrupted sea creatures survived the Flood and somehow mixed with post flood humans.
Don't like it. For a variety of reasons.

3. The regressive corrupted genes were carried forth by one or more of Noah's daughters in Law.
This is the most likely IMO.
ALL flesh had corrupted itself except Noah. I think it is safe to assume Mrs. Noah, since they are regarded as "one flesh" by God, is incorrupt as well. Meaning their children are incorrupt.

My niece's son has cystic fibrosis. Terrible disease. BOTH of his parents must carry the gene, and even then there is only a 1 in 4 chance of their offspring getting the disease.

This may be why future nephilim are not only less prevalent post Flood, but of smaller scale and abilities. (King Og of Bashan was 15 ft, Goliath 10-12 ft, instead of 30 ft or more)

It also explain the very strict enforcement by God of not intermingling with other people, and the VERY harsh decrees to completely wipe out certain people groups. Even being told to run their swords through infants and toddlers.
This is directly from the Lord:
1 Samuel 15:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

The Amelekites were certainly more than just a little infected! ............

Although obviously not sure, I am of the belief that demons differ from fallen angels. I think they are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim and raphaim.

Because they were not created by God, their spirit does not return to Him, and they will have no resurrection at all, but just simply occupy the abyss. Whatever that place is, they surely don't want to go there.
Isaiah 26:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
13 O Lord our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,020
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#42
Who said angels had sex with men? Unless you mean mankind?

The evidence is overwhelming and virtually conclusive. It has been laid out in at least a half a dozen similar threads the past 2 yrs by me and others. Do you need it again?
Yes mankind...actually women as I doubt there are female angels (unless there are gay angels lol).
Conclusive evidence? Hundreds of years of hundreds of commentators say otherwise.
 

Gregoryp

Well-known member
Jul 20, 2019
690
501
93
#43
I know this topic has been ruminated over and over but a thought hit me the other day and I have not heard it discussed.
If it actually was angels that procreated with the daughters of men then the offspring (Nephilim?) would be unredeemable since they were half men/half angel.
Jesus didn't die for the angels. How could they be judged as men?
Comments?
I wasnt aware angels had genitals and breasts, I was under the assumption that only mankind can procreate, ie be givers of life
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,020
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#44
Jude is relating the SEXUAL sin of Sodom and Gomorrah to a SEXUAL sin the fallen angels committed. The word "abode" or "habitation" in verse 6 (oiketerion) is used in only one other place in Scripture, and refers to the glorified Heavenly body we will receive upon our resurrection:
2 Corinthians 5:2 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation (oiketerion) which is from heaven,

These angels LEFT their heavenly bodies, and mated with human women, likely BECAUSE they were not allowed to procreate IN HEAVEN. That is the reason they are in Chains awaiting final judgement right now.
There is a huge assumption here equating the sin of the angels with that of Sodom and Gomorrah. I could just as easily say that the men of Sodom left their first estate and burned in lust for one another, just as...
(Rom 1:27) And likewise, also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
In any case it may very well be referring to the original fall of the angels.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,020
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#45
I wasnt aware angels had genitals and breasts, I was under the assumption that only mankind can procreate, ie be givers of life
I tend to agree but am willing to hear out the other side.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,291
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#46
So if demons need a body to indwell, which human males did they possess and use? Or was it some kind of 'spiritual copulation'? (which I doubt).
There are a lot of truths that must be addressed to fully grasp this line of thought in my view.....just some things to ponder.....

a. Noah was a JUST man and perfect in his generations <---the word perfect carries the idea of lawful or just, but comes from a root word that is CAUSATIVE and = to MAKE right in a MORAL and or FORENSIC sense. <---think on this in light of the phrases in verses 11 and 12

b. The earth was corrupt (11) It was corrupt, for ALL FLESH had corrupted his way upon the earth. <---Corrupted and corrupt come from a primitive root word and = to CAUSE TO RUIN, to corrupt, spoil, waste.

Now think on those three thoughts above in light of the fact that MAN was already fallen, sinful and born LOST......HOW could they get any more corrupt than that?

NOAH in a moral and forensic SENSE was PERFECT.....he had NOT CORRUPTED HIS FLESH as ALL others had done.....the question....HOW had ALL FLESH CORRUPTED ITSELF and ALL is conclusive of ALL when USED IN CONTEXT.....GOD used the flood to KILL EVERYTHING that had breath why<----ALL FLESH had been corrupted........

To ME the context and verbiage above is overlooked......while disregarding that this seems to heavily IMPLY something beyond just sin and a fallen already lost state due to nature..........

I cannot alleviate that GOD dia JUDE compares the state of man with that of the angels that left their first estate and went after STRANGE FLESH <---another concept that gets swept under the rug. WHAT does that MEAN STRANGE flesh.....the word "STRANGE" comes from the Greek word heteros and means of a different kind <---same word in Galatians 1:6 identifying a GOSPEL of a DIFFERENT KIND compared to the gospel PAUL preached.

The implication is clear regardless of any and all that oppose the obvious conclusions......

The angels in almost every encounter appear as MEN with the same visage and likeness of men......IF the men of SODOM could have raped the ANGELS which appeared as MEN, why is it a stretch to believe that FALLEN angels in the form and visage of MEN could not have sex with women?

We cannot forget that there is HEAVENLY form and an EARTHLY form............EVEN JESUS disrobed himself of GLORY and TOOK the form of a MAN and was tempted in ALL points as we are tempted.

Another truth that is partially accepted and rejected.....

In GENESIS 3:15 we have two seeds identified...

The seed of the WOMAN <---this is obviously JESUS <---a literal MAN born after the SEED of the woman

The SEED of the SERPENT <----yet we say oh.....this is spiritual and cannot mean blah, blah, blah...WHY?

My view is because the human race, animal kingdom and fowl had by choice and genetic manipulation had been corrupted just as we see it happening right now......

SOLOMON said....that which is GOING to be has already BEEN....there is NOTHING new under the SUN......and I fully believe that humanity was as advanced or even more advanced before the flood than we are now.......

SATAN and his fallen minions have at every turn and by every gambit attempted to thwart God's plan....the study of history and the false gods (major ones) have taught me that SATAN has continually attempted to be worshiped in a man as god and GOD has hindered it because it was not yet time for the end of the age....

MOST believers will swallow a camel and choke on a gnat when it comes to believing and or NOT believing some things of the bible......
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,291
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#47
There is a huge assumption here equating the sin of the angels with that of Sodom and Gomorrah. I could just as easily say that the men of Sodom left their first estate and burned in lust for one another, just as...
(Rom 1:27) And likewise, also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
In any case it may very well be referring to the original fall of the angels.
except for the use of HETEROS to describe the FLESH of A DIFFERENT kind they went after ;)
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,231
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#48
While we may PHYSICALLY all be born in the likeness of God, we are SPIRITUALLY born in the likeness of FALLEN Adam. That's why Jesus had to come in the 1st place.

So how could the Sons of God be children of Seth or kings? They can't
I do not think God who is not a man as us have a physical likeness. The likeness are invisible not after the corrupted.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowshiphath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

I would say sons of God can be children of Seth or a Kingdom of priest products of the spiritual seed (Christ) of the gospel . But not in respect to the things of men seen. Most likely because we are sons of God and are not who we will be when we receive our new incorruptible body not made up of the corrupted rudiments of this world. until then the end of our new hope will be reveled in the twinkling of the eye .Hebrews 11. All die not receiving the promise of the living hope that daily works in us.

We have the treasure of His power working in our bodies of death but life does not come from death .It comes from the Spirit that works within . If we are led by His Spirit that works in us as Emanuel he will work to give it life of the Spirit, until the last day .Again not of our own selves.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, "now are we the sons of God", and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
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#49
The evidence it would seem is as it is written .( sola scriptura)

Angels wings of the wind bring inspired spiritual messages (No DNA) from the Father .That serves there entire purpose. . . Spirits of truth that defends against spirits of un-truth .

The power of the message strengthened the Son as the Father poured out his unseen Spirit on the corrupted flesh of the Son of man Jesus.

What is your evidence? Do we need more that he has freely given us? Messages cannot procreate. They have no DNA
Sorry but it is a moot point. Scripture doesn't speak about angel DNA one way or the other. So who cares??? If God wasn't concerned about angel DNA why should we???
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,020
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#50
The angels in almost every encounter appear as MEN with the same visage and likeness of men......IF the men of SODOM could have raped the ANGELS which appeared as MEN, why is it a stretch to believe that FALLEN angels in the form and visage of MEN could not have sex with women?
I suppose if it was so, wars would be quite bloody as one angel could easily wipe out 185,000 men. (1Chron 21:15)(2Ki 19:35)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,020
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#51
except for the use of HETEROS to describe the FLESH of A DIFFERENT kind they went after ;)
Referring to Sodom, they went after {heteros} flesh, meaning another than what was intended (going after males instead of females). But nowhere does it say the angels went after strange flesh.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#52
Sorry but it is a moot point. Scripture doesn't speak about angel DNA one way or the other. So who cares??? If God wasn't concerned about angel DNA why should we???
Not a salvation issue .More of like. . how can we hear the gospel understanding in parables. The golden thread woven throughout the word of God. And not do what men say?

It speaks about angels that bring the message of another. Like the word apostle with no other meaning. It simply means "sent one" Not word sensitive as a time period. . as apostolical times. Not authorative ones that lord it over another man faith .Messengers they have no personality of their own they are spirits of God truth . God has no DNA .

The truth of our Father in heaven not seen in respect to His living word, the spirit of truth, it appears as angel wings of wind the unseen carriers of truth(no DNA) .As the Spirit of truth it as it is writttenstrengthened the Son of man. Blessing by the spirit of the messages the Spirt of Christ.

Luke 22:42-44 King James Version (KJV) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Angels are God's watchfull eye.

Truth strengthened the Son of man and not a angelic being as a separate entity . But rather what is called "the eyes of the Lord" as ministering spirits of living truth. Watching to see if they are performed . Like we are informed in Jerimiah 1 .The call to faith.

Ezekiel 10:12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the wheels that they four had

1 Peter 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Messengers of death and life as it is written .The law of God not seen. Not of the messengers.

The work of angels .How beautiful are the winds of their wings that bring the gospel of salvation.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,020
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#53
I'm still looking for an answer. Assuming these were some type of hybrid angel/man, would they be judged as an angel or as a man?
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
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#54
I don't believe the book of enoch . It says all offspring of the fallen angels were 300 cubits each that's 450' tall , ridiculous #1 ..
Why would any one call a fallen angel a son of God .. I don't believe Cain married his sister or mother but God had created others on the 6th day ''male and female He created them'' whose only instruction was to ''replenish'' the earth (which simply meant fill the earth) and what he give them for food to eat .. Adam was created to fellowship with God , to tend a garden in Paradise with God and was given the first law . And for Adam no suitable helpmate was found and I give God more credit than to think Adam was to pick a animal as a mate .. Cain and his family would have known about the others and who was he afraid would kill him .. He became a vegabond and left his family ..
Seth begat Enos and they began to call upon God aka ''messenger of God'' .. Cain went and married non family imo ..
If there were 2' dragonflys , 30'cat tails and other giant animal I don't find it strange to expect some big ole boys and girls too ..
I view the nephilim as off spring of men ''sons of God'' who married daughters of men Cains line who brought in their idols to corrupt the families .. Their offspring were the worst having a knowledge of God and idols in the same house too , a prime target for satanic influence .. So no, I don't believe the nephilim were the offspring of fallen angels mating with human women at all ... And they say at first it was written that they were 3000 cubits tall and changed it to just as ridiculous 300 cubits tall .. That means they would have been wading in the kiddie pool on the higher mountains .. The sons of God mentioned in Job were Jobs sons meeting on feasts days where the devil also went in .. You think the devil has ever entered any churches along with the sons of God today ?
Now excuse me while I take cover .. LOL
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,231
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#56
I'm still looking for an answer. Assuming these were some type of hybrid angel/man, would they be judged as an angel or as a man?

It looks like you are looking for something that is not there. Messages inspired by God to give strength as messages of His truth do. Not coming from the wings of the wind. But God who sends it, as it is written . It represents the one source of faith. . God not seen.


There are human messengers that bring the word of God. We should in that way be careful who we converse with. Jesus in the last days stood as a angel, son of God. God can send the Spirit of truth to one to strengthen us or both strengthen each other them .They never as messengers become the source of the message.


It is why in one example to shows us he is not served with human hands .

He puts his words on the lips a of as Ass to actively stop the madness of a false prophet (Balaam ) . A unclean animal used to represent the unredeemed.

Luke 22:42-44 King James Version (KJV)Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Not saying.... Angelical being if thou be willing. But there appeared words from the father strengthening the Son of man

The father strengthening the Son .The work of two.

Angel appearing is not a separate entity. Its the Spirit of Christ's truth that did appear and enter the mind of Jesus as it does with us..
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
28,020
2,176
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#57
It looks like you are looking for something that is not there. Messages inspired by God to give strength as messages of His truth do. Not coming from the wings of the wind. But God who sends it, as it is written . It represents the one source of faith. . God not seen.


There are human messengers that bring the word of God. We should in that way be careful who we converse with. Jesus in the last days stood as a angel, son of God. God can send the Spirit of truth to one to strengthen us or both strengthen each other them .They never as messengers become the source of the message.


It is why in one example to shows us he is not served with human hands .

He puts his words on the lips a of as Ass to actively stop the madness of a false prophet (Balaam ) . A unclean animal used to represent the unredeemed.

Luke 22:42-44 King James Version (KJV)Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Not saying.... Angelical being if thou be willing. But there appeared words from the father strengthening the Son of man

The father strengthening the Son .The work of two.

Angel appearing is not a separate entity. Its the Spirit of Christ's truth that did appear and enter the mind of Jesus as it does with us..
There are also people with a different spirit who have not the Spirit of Christ.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
928
459
63
#58
I don't believe the book of enoch . It says all offspring of the fallen angels were 300 cubits each that's 450' tall , ridiculous #1 ..
Why would any one call a fallen angel a son of God .. I don't believe Cain married his sister or mother but God had created others on the 6th day ''male and female He created them'' whose only instruction was to ''replenish'' the earth (which simply meant fill the earth) and what he give them for food to eat .. Adam was created to fellowship with God , to tend a garden in Paradise with God and was given the first law . And for Adam no suitable helpmate was found and I give God more credit than to think Adam was to pick a animal as a mate .. Cain and his family would have known about the others and who was he afraid would kill him .. He became a vegabond and left his family ..
Seth begat Enos and they began to call upon God aka ''messenger of God'' .. Cain went and married non family imo ..
If there were 2' dragonflys , 30'cat tails and other giant animal I don't find it strange to expect some big ole boys and girls too ..
I view the nephilim as off spring of men ''sons of God'' who married daughters of men Cains line who brought in their idols to corrupt the families .. Their offspring were the worst having a knowledge of God and idols in the same house too , a prime target for satanic influence .. So no, I don't believe the nephilim were the offspring of fallen angels mating with human women at all ... And they say at first it was written that they were 3000 cubits tall and changed it to just as ridiculous 300 cubits tall .. That means they would have been wading in the kiddie pool on the higher mountains .. The sons of God mentioned in Job were Jobs sons meeting on feasts days where the devil also went in .. You think the devil has ever entered any churches along with the sons of God today ?
Now excuse me while I take cover .. LOL
Wow, I was expecting a lot of flack from this post .. I was already getting in my fullback/middle linebacker mode .. lol
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
13,231
1,253
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#59
There are also people with a different spirit who have not the Spirit of Christ.

Yes it is one of the reasons that without parables Christ spoke not .hiding the understanding form the apostles. that can be seen in Luke 9 to teach them how to walk by faith . . .the unseen eternal.

Three times Christ purposely hid the understand of the parable. The first time. It became as if the Son of man had become invisible .Like is he confused lets look for someone we can understand. . A alfa dog who let the dogs out battle came about ."Who is the greatest" man up .To show them how not to walk after what the eyes see, walking by sight. After the third and final time .He rebuked them and declared they knew not what manner of spirit they of .A deceitful and desperately wicked heart as in who could know it. They did learn to walk by faith just as us...

Luke9: 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
 

massorite

Junior Member
Jan 3, 2015
245
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#60
Yes it is one of the reasons that without parables Christ spoke not .hiding the understanding form the apostles. that can be seen in Luke 9 to teach them how to walk by faith . . .the unseen eternal.

Three times Christ purposely hid the understand of the parable. The first time. It became as if the Son of man had become invisible .Like is he confused lets look for someone we can understand. . A alfa dog who let the dogs out battle came about ."Who is the greatest" man up .To show them how not to walk after what the eyes see, walking by sight. After the third and final time .He rebuked them and declared they knew not what manner of spirit they of .A deceitful and desperately wicked heart as in who could know it. They did learn to walk by faith just as us...

Luke9: 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
I agree.