God hating you before you're born?

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Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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NO, NO. God did not reject the birth of Esau, but he did know what he would be like. he even explained to them one kind of person he would be.. he did not make Esau the way he was so that he could hate him... ever since God created Adam and Eve. he turned them loose on their own to do what he intended them to.MULTIPLY, and it continues to this day .Multiply
 
May 8, 2017
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Pharaoh did harden his heart at first. None of us will deny that. But, if we let Paul interpret it as he does in Romans 9, we can clearly see that God also hardened him for a purpose. Why did God have to harden him more if he already did it? My point of view is that God hardened him further to keep him from conceding because God wasn't finished with his display of power. Pharaoh would have conceded and let the people go to save himself.

None of us believe that God arbitrarily hardens anyone. There is a purpose. He had a purpose when he hardened the Jews, Jesus had a purpose when he withheld the truth so some wouldn't turn and be saved. There is a purpose when God deludes those unbelievers of 2 Thes. 2 and when he turns people over to their own desires in Romans 1. Is this not a violation of their will? Was Paul's will violated? Why is everyone okay with corporate election (Israel), but once the new testament gets here, everyone thinks God owes them something? It makes no sense.

The point we make is that ALL are fallen and condemned by God. All of us. It's all over the bible. It can't be denied. So God, in his mercy, chose to save some by changing their nature. He doesn't force us, he frees us. This idea is all over scripture as well. Heart of stone to heart of flesh, those he predestined he also calls and those he calls he also justifies.

How can we reconcile "all people" in some cases when there are explicit texts that mention only those chosen? We can't unless we conclude that all doesn't always mean all, and it is usually shown in context by listing people groups.

Jesus himself makes claims that only those given to him will come to him, that some don't believe because they aren't of his flock, not that they aren't of his flock because they don't believe. What about the plethora of passages that clearly describe the inability of man, comparing our natural state to that of a dead man, a slave, a God-hater from birth. These text are being completely ignored by Arminians. Context is completely mangled by them as well. A verse ripped out of it's context can be made to mean anything.

We gotta look at the whole picture. Either Jesus' sacrifice was only half-effective, or it was perfect and complete. A lot of the verses being used out of their context espouse universalism more than mere Arminianism. Are we universalists now?

It would be nice to find a middle ground but I don't think there is one. The fact is, most won't even realistically consider another school of thought even for a second, so they are resorting to misrepresentation, lying, subversion, and other tactics. Hard pressed to even get someone to address passages in their context. It goes completely ignored.
thank you for answering my question and again, we have nothing else to discuss and that is ok.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I am not freenchrist or whatever he thinks I am. He finally answered my question.
I ask that you forgive us that have acted this way towards you and slandered you because you had a different view on a subject. You will find sometimes it is best just to ignore and not interact with certain types on here that continuously exhibit this type of bad behavior.

Unfortunately it's purpose is to de-mean and insult you because of your view that is different from theirs and in our zeal to "defend the truth" as we know it or to "rightly divide the word of truth" we feel it's ok to slander others.

None of us know all there is about every truth and Paul says "Those that think they know something - don't know it as they ought to". We all need each other in the body of Christ.

Welcome to CC. Bless you brother.
 
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Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
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This creation is not staged to play out like a movie script as some would have you to believe. God set it up and watched it grow. all living things. For every action man perform, God reacts to to the actions.
 
May 8, 2017
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This creation is not staged to play out like a movie script as some would have you to believe. God set it up and watched it grow. all living things. For every action man perform, God reacts to to the actions.
No, God reacts to faith
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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This creation is not staged to play out like a movie script as some would have you to believe. God set it up and watched it grow. all living things. For every action man perform, God reacts to to the actions.
I prefer to see it as a musical masterpiece.

God governs all, because He created all and because everything exists in Him. He is not "just watching". Thats deism.
 
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So I guess in your bible it says "For God so loved the elect" and if the "elect calls upon the name of the lord they shall be saved". lol
Ah! Now I remember why I put you on ignore. You don't ever respond to direct questions asked to you, and you just flip something up randomly any other time. Never mind.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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11 pages of fights?
Did something good happen here?
or something bad?
 
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???????????????????
The sentence for sin is separation from God, death, and hell. God being God, he couldn't be just and skip that sentence. That's not justice. But he did say if someone who didn't commit the crime were to die for the person who did, it was reckoned as justified. That was just.

Jesus took on that debt owed to God.. The sentence was separation from God (the Father), death, (which Jesus did on that cross), and hell, where Jesus took the dead one already saved. That was the debt Jesus paid. It did not go into anyone's bank account. It did not go for everyone who was ever conceived. It went to whom it was owed -- the Father.

And the Father gave Jesus exactly what he promised he would give:
John 6:[FONT=&quot]35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”[/FONT]

He paid the debt to his Father.
 
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So there is a good chance that I am not elected, and neither are you?
Did Christianity just become a gambling game? Because lots of people keep claiming it's all about chance.

And the ones claiming that aren't the Reformed Theology folks.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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I prefer to see it as a musical masterpiece.

God governs all, because He created all and because everything exists in Him. He is not "just watching". Thats deism.
First of all yall just beat us in hockey after being down 3-0 to 3-4 so thats not good.
Second of all, this worries me, I look at everything and to think this is a musical play? Its very dramatic play ill say that, wickedness abounds.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Hi everyone! I am reading the Why does God hate Esau post and ForthAngel mentions this: I think it's interesting that many are saying it was because of something Esau did or because of the condition of his heart. Paul refutes this in Romans 9 and makes it clear that God hated him before he had done anything good or bad and before he was born.

I would like to understand this a little better...

I have read Romans 9 and it indeed says we all depend on God's mercy no matter what we do, if we are loved we are loved, if we are hardened by God, we are hardened. Does this means that if we are not chosen by God before birth all we can do is struggle in life like worms crawling on the floor, as He watches our struggles with indifference or contempt?

On the other hand, I was raised a Catholic and taught sins and evil deeds bring God's punishment. I am at a moment right now in which I feel a lot of self-loathe for some bad mistakes I made in my past, I confessed them but I still feel scruples, they haunt me a lot. But this stated in Romans 9 could mean that there was nothing I could do to escape this destiny and not commit these mistakes because if I am not chosen by God before birth my life won't be full of grace it will just be a heap of darkness and disgrace and full period.

I have to say this idea of being rejected by God already before birth and not being able to do or be anything to change this fact terrifies me a little bit.

Does God doom some of us to a life of disgrace because he hates us even before birth? Are some of our prayers unanswered because of that? What is the point of praying then, or going to church, if doing things won't make a difference in God's eyes? Is faith then an option or it doesn't matter whether you have faith or not?

What could you tell me about it? I am still learning. Thank you for your answers I truly appreciate your time, wisdom and guidance, may God bless you.
Just one thing bro God said no more shall the son bare the eniquity of the father...
 
May 8, 2017
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The sentence for sin is separation from God, death, and hell. God being God, he couldn't be just and skip that sentence. That's not justice. But he did say if someone who didn't commit the crime were to die for the person who did, it was reckoned as justified. That was just.

Jesus took on that debt owed to God.. The sentence was separation from God (the Father), death, (which Jesus did on that cross), and hell, where Jesus took the dead one already saved. That was the debt Jesus paid. It did not go into anyone's bank account. It did not go for everyone who was ever conceived. It went to whom it was owed -- the Father.

And the Father gave Jesus exactly what he promised he would give:
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

He paid the debt to his Father.
Are you saying that all God did was save himself?
 
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Election in Scripture is plain and everywhere and there is no such thing as one saved who is not and was not elect. Paul spoke plainly to the churches about their election, 1 Thessalonians 1:4 for example.

Remember brothers, it is not that they won't take a look at what we're saying, it is that they're rejecting what God's Word says. Time and again, simply giving them Scripture, they reject it and accuse of saying something not even asserted.
Nope. This is clearly an "I'm right, you can't tell me I am anything but right, lalalalalala" moment.

I do believe some just want whatever god they want, and no amount of reality will change them. (God could, and might.) But Kayla? She's an otherwise sensible person who just cannot see God's choice in this to the extent she can't even see the vast majority of the Reformed don't even believe in double-predestination.

Double-predestination? Neither a Calvinist nor Arminian doctrine. Something I do believe, but could be convinced against if proven wrong.

She's just so caught up in the "you v. us" thing so much, she can't even figure out who is on which side of the one. That's blind rage, not refusing God's word.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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First of all yall just beat us in hockey after being down 3-0 to 3-4 so thats not good.
Second of all, this worries me, I look at everything and to think this is a musical play? Its very dramatic play ill say that, wickedness abounds.
Lol, yeah, pretty dramatic end... Like with our Universe :) Read the Theodicy, come on :)

And you have better looking dress, I must admit.
 
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Im beginning to get upset with you Lynn.I asked for clarification. Do you believe some people are elected to be saved and others are not and are doomed to be lost? That is the question. Im not putting words in your mouth. Im sharing what the Bible says,if that bar is too high for you that is not my issue but yours. Now please clarify what you are saying and stop telling me nonsense like Im calling people a liar and putting words in people mouths. You are over reacting. Answer the question. Do you believe some people are elected and others are doomed.IF you do not believe this tell me what Im missing and stop yelling at me and bringing false accusations.

You've been the one yelling.

And now, you're right. You aren't putting words into my mouth. You're avoiding answering the question about Marano. You said he was wrong for believing in double-predestination, and yet... he never said he was for or against it. That's on you. You deal with that! You put those words in his mouth.

THEN we can get on to what I believe, once you get rid of all the rhetoric you keep recycling on what every Reformed believes.
 
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Do you lie and misrepresent often or just in the above? Show us all where anything about works existed in my post.
Do not hold your breath for him. You'll pass out.
 
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Arrg Garber isn't healthy at all for children.

Sugar
The No. 1 ingredient in Gerber Rice Cereal is white rice flour, which means you are basically feeding your child a whole bunch of starch. Not only is this ingredient processed, but it’s also high in calories and devoid of real nutrients.

Giving your child Gerber baby food “is basically like giving your child a spoonful of sugar,” says Dr. Alan Greene, a pediatrician from Stanford University.

According to him, feeding a baby bleached white rice can also predispose a child to obesity. If you think about it, feeding your child Gerber Rice Cereal creates a negative taste imprint that can cause bad food choices later in life.

2. Not By A Long Chalk
These days, calcium is added to all kinds of foods, from O.J. to Spaghetti-Os. When a food manufacturer wants to ensure a baked good will rise, they might add calcium carbonate because it acts as both a leavening agent and a (substandard) calcium source.
Incidentally, calcium carbonate is also used as a building material because it’s basically limestone. How yummy!

The primary justification for ingesting calcium carbonate is to “support bones.” Lancet and the British Medical Journal, however, published the results of two extensive clinical trials that concluded calcium plus vitamin D do nothing to prevent bone loss.

Meanwhile, it takes our bodies 12 steps to convert calcium carbonate into calcium bicarbonate, which is the form of calcium we can absorb. So why do they use it? It’s chalk; it’s relatively cheap to produce.

Want to give your baby calcium? Why not give her real food in the form of liver, collard greens, spinach, broccoli, okra, or prunes. Leave the chalk for the classroom and construction.

3. Soy Lecithin
Why has soy lecithin also found its way into so many processed foods? According to its label, Gerber adds less than two percent. But why? For starters, it emulsifies, reduces stickiness, and extends shelf life. But how does that benefit your baby?

The answer is it doesn’t. Soybeans are considered a “major food allergen” by the Food and Drug Administration. What parent wants to feed that to their child, regardless of the amount? Furthermore, 96 percent of soybeans in this country are now genetically engineered, which means your child is eating frankenfood even before they have teeth.

4. Faux Iron

Garber Baby food No. 1 foosource for Iron” (for those starting on solid foods); “available in an easy to use package”. This is Gerber’s claim, but I would say it’s a flat-out lie.

“Electrotrolytic” iron is listed as the sixth ingredient on the label. So there isn’t much of it.

Meanwhile, a baby can only absorb a mere four percent of this fortified powdered stuff compared to 50 percent of iron in breast milk. To add insult to injury, this form of iron is artificial and is the least absorbable type. But it makes its way into “an easy to use package” of cereal because it’s cheaper and extends shelf life.
Whoa, dude! Passionately against, Gerber, huh? :eek: