God LIED!

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Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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As clear as I can: If he was truly saved, if he died today, he will be in heaven.

No where does the Bible say that once we have believed, we'd better keep believing, or we'll be lost. That takes the emphasis off of Jesus and puts it on us.

If we have to do anything to maintain our salvation, it no longer is a free gift and instead becomes a wage. Something we've earned. Grace would longer be grace.

There is not a single example in scripture where one was saved, and for some reason, lost their salvation.

It's not even possible.

Jesus said nothing in all creation (including ourselves, as we are created) can separate us from God. He also said no one (and again, that includes ourselves) can snatch us out of His hand, or the Father's.
Just trying to understand . . .

You said, "
If he was truly saved, if he died today, he will be in heaven."

OK - so if I shoot him dead right now before he has any chance to change what he believes
then he will die not believing in Christ, but will go to heaven because he was truly saved

Or - another scenario could be (from what I understand here) is that I might try to shoot him, but it will be impossible (that is- God will do a miracle such as jam the gun, etc.) to kill him (because since he was truly saved, then he will again return and believe before his death).

(Please forgive the rude imagery! I have no intentions of shooting my brother-in-law, and I hope no one else does either! )
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Although I concur with brother Budman, from the scenario you laid out, I do not think your brother-in-law was really saved. Regardless of his confession and actions yrs ago.

There are 2 elements to Salvation. Confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, and belief that His Father raised Him from the grave,
We can only see the former. We CANNOT see someone's heart. We all know the verse that if they were Christians they would have remained Christians. Their leaving is proof that they were not. I am not saying your brother-in -law is forever lost, but I draw a distinction between wandering from the Lord because of sin, and leaving the Lord because of unbelief.

The Prodigal son never believed his father wasn't his father, he only believed his behavior caused him to no longer be his father's son. I think believing no God no longer exists, after confessing that He does, is of a different order than a true born again son straying off into a sinful lifestyle. I think God will do whatever is necessary to draw His Child back to Him.
I wish you would know and have seen the faith of my brother-in-law and see where he is now.
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
827
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I wish you would know and have seen the faith of my brother-in-law and see where he is now.

Hey Chester, were you and your brother raised into a Christian household?
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
2,900
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OK - so if I shoot him dead right now before he has any chance to change what he believes
then he will die not believing in Christ, but will go to heaven because he was truly saved
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Once we believe, we are instantly sealed, and nothing in all of creation can break that seal.

Or - another scenario could be (from what I understand here) is that I might try to shoot him, but it will be impossible (that is- God will do a miracle such as jam the gun, etc.) to kill him (because since he was truly saved, then he will again return and believe before his death).
The reason I used the word "return" is there is always the possibility of a false conversion. But again, if he, at one point in his life, truly believed Jesus died on the cross, and rose from the dead as payment for his sins, he was saved, is saved, and will remain saved, regardless of what he believes now. If not, salvation isn't actually the gift the Bible says it is.

That's why God gets ALL of the glory for saving us, because it's not based on us in any way, shape, or form.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
5,101
673
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I wish you would know and have seen the faith of my brother-in-law and see where he is now.
I'm sorry Chester. It's certainly not my place to judge your brother-in-law. I would refer again to this verse.
1 John 2:19 New King James Version (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I just know that when we are born again, we are a NEW creation. A child of the living God.

God is NOT going to abandon His Child. He WILL leave the 99 and do whatever He has to, in order for His Child to return to Him.

We are His Children BY BIRTH (Spiritually born again). We can't unbirth ourselves.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,194
195
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Hey Chester, were you and your brother raised into a Christian household?
It is my brother-in-law --Yes, we were both raised in Christian homes - but both homes had big issues
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Yes, that's what I'm saying. Once we believe, we are instantly sealed, and nothing in all of creation can break that seal.



The reason I used the word "return" is there is always the possibility of a false conversion. But again, if he, at one point in his life, truly believed Jesus died on the cross, and rose from the dead as payment for his sins, he was saved, is saved, and will remain saved, regardless of what he believes now. If not, salvation isn't actually the gift the Bible says it is.

That's why God gets ALL of the glory for saving us, because it's not based on us in any way, shape, or form.
Okay: I like how blunt and open and honest you are about what you believe!

You believe if my brother-in-law was truly saved, then he will go to heaven even if he dies as an avowed atheist. Even if he dies shouting and cursing at God and saying he wants to go to hell, God will take him to heaven.

Thence I probably don't need to worry about him or keep praying for him as much - except that it sure would be better for him and all around him if he was a Christian! So if he was truly saved (which I am convinced he was - of course - I could be wrong . . . ) I don't need to worry about him getting into heaven.

Am I understanding your answer?
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
827
135
43
It is my brother-in-law --Yes, we were both raised in Christian homes - but both homes had big issues
Proverbs 22:6-8 [SUP]6 [/SUP]Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

I believe this still remains true to this day, because there are so many who were saved at an early age that walk away, just as the prodigal son did, but still returned and are returning. And God welcomes with open arms and love when they return
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,194
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I'm sorry Chester. It's certainly not my place to judge your brother-in-law. I would refer again to this verse.
1 John 2:19 New King James Version (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I just know that when we are born again, we are a NEW creation. A child of the living God.

God is NOT going to abandon His Child. He WILL leave the 99 and do whatever He has to, in order for His Child to return to Him.

We are His Children BY BIRTH (Spiritually born again). We can't unbirth ourselves.
Thanks, PennEd, I know you truly care!

I am trying to understand your answer: Please tell me if I am not understanding . . .

If my brother-in-law was truly saved, then I conclude you would agree with Mr. Budman (you said earlier you "concur" with him). You would believe that no matter if he died an avowed atheist and professed no belief in God that he would go to heaven.

But I hear you saying that most likely my brother-in-law was not really saved. (By the way, I am not offended by you saying that. It surely is a possibility, just like I have to realize that there is a possibility I was never saved!) So then I assume you make this presumption about my brother-in-law based on his current external words and works. And you could do the same for me, if I left the church and professed atheism.

Hence my original question - see post #396 - that it seems to me that if I adopted belief in OSAS, then I would need to depend on my works to make sure I have assurance of salvation.

I am not trying to be difficult or bring up make-believe scenarios - my brother-in-law is a real life close to me example. Right now I base my assurance on the salvation that right now I am believing in Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,069
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And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, ...." Matt 17:20


For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
2,194
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And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, ...." Matt 17:20


For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Rom 11:32
Ah, excuse me? What did you say?

(Or, more plainly - please explain what you are trying to say . . . )
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
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You believe if my brother-in-law was truly saved, then he will go to heaven even if he dies as an avowed atheist. Even if he dies shouting and cursing at God and saying he wants to go to hell, God will take him to heaven.
Yes.

Thence I probably don't need to worry about him or keep praying for him as much
Pray for him lots! God chastens His wayward children - sometimes to the point of taking them home. (1 Corinthians 11:30-32)

So if he was truly saved (which I am convinced he was - of course - I could be wrong . . . ) I don't need to worry about him getting into heaven.
Exactly. Salvation is a gift through Christ alone.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Yes.



Pray for him lots! God chastens His wayward children - sometimes to the point of taking them home. (1 Corinthians 11:30-32)



Exactly. Salvation is a gift through Christ alone.
Interesting, interesting!

I don't agree with you - but I do respect your consistent answer! Only one in a hundred who believe in OSAS will say that what you just said is a possibility:

That if someone has been truly saved, they can curse and swear at God, they can commit genocide, stop believing, become a Hitlar, and on and on and on, and they will get to heaven when they die.

And I respect that you say I should pray for him lots.

I haven't been praying for him enough . . .
I was almost going to say that if I believed in eternal security, then I wouldn't need to pray as much because he'll get to heaven anyway . . but whoops, that does not work if I haven't been praying much and say that I believe he will go to hell if he dies right now!


Which I think should remind all of us that there are millions in this world on their way to hell - do we care? do we pray?
(Or do we (I) just argue theology on CC?)
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
578
176
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Okay, now that I have your attention....

One of the main things that is troublesome to my soul, are those who believe one must strive to live the "Christian life" in order to remain saved. They believe that if you sin too much after your conversion, you can lose your salvation. Or they believe you can "give" your salvation back to God and walk away. Or, they'll say, if you don't live and act in a Christian "manner" it proves you were never saved at all.

I wanted to point out, that if one can lose their salvation, based on their performance in any way, then that makes God a liar.

Jesus said that He gives us eternal life, and that we shall never perish, and that no one can snatch us out of His, or the Father's hand. (John 3:16, 10: 28-29)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will perish, and we will indeed be snatched out of the hands of Jesus and the Father.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit which is a pledge guaranteeing our inheritance. (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5)

If we can lose our salvation, then there is no guarantee of our inheritance and the seal of the Holy Spirit is conditional.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says Jesus will never leave us or forsake us. (Hebrews 13:5)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus has left and forsaken us.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says Jesus always lives to make intercession for us. (Hebrews 7:25)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus will not always make intercession for us - only while we remain saved.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says we are sealed for the Day of Redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

If we can lose our salvation, then we are not sealed until the Day of Redemption, but only up until we are lost again.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that He will lose none of us, but will raise us up on the last day. (John 6:39)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus will, in fact, lose some of us, and will not raise us up on the last day.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that believers will never come into judgment, and have passed from death into life. (John 5:24)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will go back under judgment, and pass from life back into death.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says our calling is irrevocable. (Roman 11:29)

If we can lose our salvation, then our calling is indeed revocable.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says salvation is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8)

If we can lose our salvation, then salvation is not a gift, but a wage to be earned.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says nothing in all creation (that includes us as created beings) can separate us from the love of God. (Romans 8:38-39)

If we can lose our salvation, then something can indeed separate us from the love of God.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says God will complete the good work that He began in us. (Philippians 1:6)

If we can lose our salvation, then God's good work will not be completed.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says we have been perfected for all time. (Hebrews 10:14)

If we can lose our salvation, then we certainly are not perfected for all time.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says our inheritance is imperishable, can never spoil, and is unfading, guarded by God's power. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

If we can lose our salvation, then our inheritance will perish, will spoil, and will fade.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says if we drink from the living water that is Christ, we will never be thirsty again. (John 4:14)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will indeed be thirsty again.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says God will sustain us to the end, guiltless in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 1:8)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will not be sustained until the day of the Lord.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says that our debt to God has been canceled through Christ Jesus. (Colossians 2:13-14)

If we can lose our salvation, our debt has not truly been canceled.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that those who are His will never hunger nor thirst again. (John 6:35)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will again hunger and thirst.

Verdict: God LIED.



So, what is your verdict? Did God lie to us when He made all of those promises, or is our salvation indeed eternal and irrevocable?



Awesome post. Had a friend ask me the other day if I believed in OSAS and I said yes. First thing out of her mouth was "Oh, so you believe in license to sin." Where in the world can someone get that idea from "eternal salvation" for those who believe and accept God's free gift?

Amazing to me. If we can lose it, how in the world is it eternal?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Hmm...... well i'm curious what you do with all those scriptures that contain phrases like,'endure to the end', 'remaining steadfast' and other similar phrases? Also, have you given any thought to the possibility of 'everlasting', 'eternal' may actually not begin for us until we die. Once we are dead it's set in stone, there are no more chances and everything from that point is everlasting and eternal one way or the other. just a thought.
The verses that speak of perseverance or enduring to the end state that only the saved will endure or persevere. They do NOT make perseverance or endurance a requirement for Salvation.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,467
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Awesome post. Had a friend ask me the other day if I believed in OSAS and I said yes. First thing out of her mouth was "Oh, so you believe in license to sin." Where in the world can someone get that idea from "eternal salvation" for those who believe and accept God's free gift?

Amazing to me. If we can lose it, how in the world is it eternal?
Read the Works' thread......it is the only default accusation they can come up with because biblically they cannot refute eternal security.....
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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I don't care for the blasphemous title of the thread. Accusing God of lying as an attention getter is not acceptable. Why can't we edit our own subject lines? God certainly did not lie.

The OP is operating under a certain set of assumptions, primarily viewing salvation as an event completely in the past. Here is a relevant passage of scripture:

I Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
You miss the point! The OP does NOT accuse God of lying. The OP accuses those who deny eternal security of accusing God of lying. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
5,101
673
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Thanks, PennEd, I know you truly care!

I am trying to understand your answer: Please tell me if I am not understanding . . .

If my brother-in-law was truly saved, then I conclude you would agree with Mr. Budman (you said earlier you "concur" with him). You would believe that no matter if he died an avowed atheist and professed no belief in God that he would go to heaven.

But I hear you saying that most likely my brother-in-law was not really saved. (By the way, I am not offended by you saying that. It surely is a possibility, just like I have to realize that there is a possibility I was never saved!) So then I assume you make this presumption about my brother-in-law based on his current external words and works. And you could do the same for me, if I left the church and professed atheism.

Hence my original question - see post #396 - that it seems to me that if I adopted belief in OSAS, then I would need to depend on my works to make sure I have assurance of salvation.

I am not trying to be difficult or bring up make-believe scenarios - my brother-in-law is a real life close to me example. Right now I base my assurance on the salvation that right now I am believing in Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour.
I think so many times on discussions of great importance we get lost in the details and fail to see the big picture,

Abortion is an example. Should a woman have a choice to abort. How about if the fetus is under a month. What if we know the baby will have significant birth defects. Could the mother's health be in jeopardy. What if the child was conceived by rape, etc.. Some would say very important questions. When in effect the ONLY vital question isn't really asked or talked about.

IS THE NEWLY CONCEIVED A HUMAN BEING????!!! If no, then the other questions come into play. If yes, then you would flat out support murder if you were in favor of abortion.

And I think this goes along the same lines of some of the very good, but perhaps unimportant questions you ask about salvation.

IS THE PERSON IN QUESTION A NEW CREATION,A BORN AGAIN, CHILD OF GOD? I contend that if the answer is no, then all your questions come in to play.

If the answer is yes, then they will forever be a Child of the Living God. And He is mighty to save! There is NO way the Creator of the Universe is going to allow one of His little kids to be thrown into hell!

That Child may be severely chastised. No different than us chastising our kids to the extent they need. But we would NEVER disown our kids. Because they are our kids by birth and we love them!

How much more does our Father in Heaven love us? How is He going to allow us to forever stray from Him?

Chester, He is NOT going to take your faith away, and it is not our place to guess whether your brother in law was ever born again or not. Our place is to love him and pray that God works in his heart to bring him either back to repentance, or to truly accept Him to begin with.
 
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OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,110
277
83
Okay, now that I have your attention....

One of the main things that is troublesome to my soul, are those who believe one must strive to live the "Christian life" in order to remain saved. They believe that if you sin too much after your conversion, you can lose your salvation. Or they believe you can "give" your salvation back to God and walk away. Or, they'll say, if you don't live and act in a Christian "manner" it proves you were never saved at all.

I wanted to point out, that if one can lose their salvation, based on their performance in any way, then that makes God a liar.

Jesus said that He gives us eternal life, and that we shall never perish, and that no one can snatch us out of His, or the Father's hand. (John 3:16, 10: 28-29)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will perish, and we will indeed be snatched out of the hands of Jesus and the Father.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit which is a pledge guaranteeing our inheritance. (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5)

If we can lose our salvation, then there is no guarantee of our inheritance and the seal of the Holy Spirit is conditional.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says Jesus will never leave us or forsake us. (Hebrews 13:5)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus has left and forsaken us.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says Jesus always lives to make intercession for us. (Hebrews 7:25)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus will not always make intercession for us - only while we remain saved.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says we are sealed for the Day of Redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

If we can lose our salvation, then we are not sealed until the Day of Redemption, but only up until we are lost again.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that He will lose none of us, but will raise us up on the last day. (John 6:39)

If we can lose our salvation, then Jesus will, in fact, lose some of us, and will not raise us up on the last day.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that believers will never come into judgment, and have passed from death into life. (John 5:24)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will go back under judgment, and pass from life back into death.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says our calling is irrevocable. (Roman 11:29)

If we can lose our salvation, then our calling is indeed revocable.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says salvation is a gift from God. (Ephesians 2:8)

If we can lose our salvation, then salvation is not a gift, but a wage to be earned.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says nothing in all creation (that includes us as created beings) can separate us from the love of God. (Romans 8:38-39)

If we can lose our salvation, then something can indeed separate us from the love of God.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says God will complete the good work that He began in us. (Philippians 1:6)

If we can lose our salvation, then God's good work will not be completed.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says we have been perfected for all time. (Hebrews 10:14)

If we can lose our salvation, then we certainly are not perfected for all time.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says our inheritance is imperishable, can never spoil, and is unfading, guarded by God's power. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

If we can lose our salvation, then our inheritance will perish, will spoil, and will fade.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says if we drink from the living water that is Christ, we will never be thirsty again. (John 4:14)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will indeed be thirsty again.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says God will sustain us to the end, guiltless in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 1:8)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will not be sustained until the day of the Lord.

Verdict: God LIED.

The Bible says that our debt to God has been canceled through Christ Jesus. (Colossians 2:13-14)

If we can lose our salvation, our debt has not truly been canceled.

Verdict: God LIED.

Jesus said that those who are His will never hunger nor thirst again. (John 6:35)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will again hunger and thirst.

Verdict: God LIED.



So, what is your verdict? Did God lie to us when He made all of those promises, or is our salvation indeed eternal and irrevocable?

You said, “
I wanted to point out, that if one can lose their salvation, based on their performance in any way, then that makes God a liar.” I want to know where in the Bible you found that God said you can kick up your feet and do nothing? Cause I found “Each must work out their salvation with fear and trembling”. And I found “But if you sin willfully (without goal or effort to stop) there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins.” Cause this tells me if I give up effort, I give up my salvation. God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him. It is not a matter of how many sins can be forgiven, cause all can as long as you remain in Him. If you sin purposely (premeditated and goal driven) you go back to the world because you are living for pleasure instead of living for God.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,467
1,470
113
con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun
noun: context; plural noun: contexts

  • the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed


    The bible also states that women will be saved in child bearing........and the point above IS OBVIOUS..............