God's Chosen People per Romans 11

[JesusRules1]

This is a discussion to get the facts of who God's chosen people are.... verse by verse.

Romans 11:1 KJV
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

At this point God has taken the kingdom from flesh Israel and given it to the gentiles. Is this true or false?

The Bible says that Jesus came unto His own,but His own received Him not,and the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,and Israel did not know the time of their visitation.

Israel rejected Jesus,which God gave them around 70 years to accept the truth,and Christianity was being spread more,but Israel still did not accept Jesus,so God allowed the Roman Empire to overthrow Jerusalem,and scatter the Jews in to the nations,per God's blessing,and cursing,in Deuteronomy,that if they followed God in the truth,a blessing,and no enemy would be able to overcome her,and if they did not abide in the truth,a cursing,and their enemies would scatter them off their land.

Which Israel as a nation will not accept Jesus as Messiah,which is Israel is blinded in part,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,when salvation is no longer available to them,and so all Israel shall be saved,the kingdom restored to them after they have borne their shame,and Israel will be the only operating government,and no Gentile government will rule.

God said the gifts and calling of God is without repentance,which God called Israel and will work them without turning from it,but the kingdom on earth is given to them depending on the condition of the nation,whether they abide in truth or not,but God has not cast away His people that He once foreknew,and always brings them to the truth,which He will again,and they as a nation will accept Jesus as Messiah,and the kingdom will be restored to her.

Israel is always to have the physical dominion on earth,with no enemy being able to come against her,but because of their rejection of Christ,God did give the Gentiles the physical dominion,which the Roman Empire has the dominion until God puts them down,but when the world rebels against God,then God will put them down,and the kingdom restored to Israel,for the Gentiles that do not love God will fall away,the beast kingdom,which God will put down,and Israel will come to the truth,but the millennial reign of Christ is both Jew and Gentile,in glorified bodies,ruling with Jesus.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Have you sat down and read Romans 11? Your comment makes no sense in context.

I have been doing an extensive study of the book of Romans for almost a year. I haven't gotten back to it in a few weeks but hope to get there soon.

Ppl want to think the 'fullness of the Gentiles' means when the last Gentile is saved, then God will turn His focus to the nation of Israel. However, there are many Jews coming to know the Christ now. So, He is already drawing both Jews and Gentiles into the one body, the church, of which the Christ is her head.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Good point.

Is the OP taking this to mean to mean that God cast away the people who were not foreknown, who were not predestined or whatever? That is not something Paul actually says. Paul starts off saying that God had not cast away his people. Then he deals with the remnant. Then he deals with the issue of the nation of Israel that was under spiritual blindness, for the most part, for a period of time. This nation, a nation which is distinct from the church, or at least those who do not believe are, will one day be saved. The Deliverer will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. It is clear from context that this reference to Jacob even including those who are considered 'enemies' at the time being for the sake of the Gospel. There were Jews who opposed the Gospel and persecuted the church.

So the first part of the chapter deals with the remnant. Toward the end, Paul deals with the issue of the nation as a whole, which, at that time, had rejected the Gospel, and the Deliverer would turn away ungodliness from Jacob and bring them to salvation.

The remnant are His ppl. It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[Romans 9:6]

The true Israel is the body of Christ, the church. Both Jews and Gentiles who are in this body have had their heart circumcised.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Good point.

Is the OP taking this to mean to mean that God cast away the people who were not foreknown, who were not predestined or whatever? That is not something Paul actually says. Paul starts off saying that God had not cast away his people. Then he deals with the remnant. Then he deals with the issue of the nation of Israel that was under spiritual blindness, for the most part, for a period of time. This nation, a nation which is distinct from the church, or at least those who do not believe are, will one day be saved. The Deliverer will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. It is clear from context that this reference to Jacob even including those who are considered 'enemies' at the time being for the sake of the Gospel. There were Jews who opposed the Gospel and persecuted the church.

So the first part of the chapter deals with the remnant. Toward the end, Paul deals with the issue of the nation as a whole, which, at that time, had rejected the Gospel, and the Deliverer would turn away ungodliness from Jacob and bring them to salvation.

Israel was always falling into apostasy. Ahab and Jezebel were a vicious combination, and at that time Israel was neck deep in apostasy, with Baal and Asherah worship the state religion, and the prophets of God were being executed by Jezebel. God nonetheless preserved a witness, a core set of faith believers, in the Nation. (1 Kings 18 etc)

Paul is really comparing that time with the present time. Persecution of the Church in Judea had been absolutely vicious and rampant when he wrote Romans (Circa AD 58).

So, however bad Israel's rejection of God, has God rejected Israel? is the question Paul asks.

His answer is no, because he is still working through Israel/Judah.

Just as in the past he preserved a remnant, and then Elijah won his showdown with the prophets of Baal, and they were put to death, in the present, the core of believers in the Church will win their showdown with the unbelieving Jews, and Jerusalem will be torched.

I take foreknew, proginosko, to mean that God had worked with Israel from the start. The election is the remnant within Israel at this point, (although it is not meant in the sense to preclude non-Israelites). I guess when you know someone a long time, you get to know their character, so foreknow probably does mean that God knows their disobedient stiff-necked nature.

If it does, then Paul seems to be saying that God knows how to work with Israel, in spite of their problematic nature.

It is complicated, because God works with the Jews on a corporate and generational level, as well as individually.

Ever since the Law was introduced, God as potter was forming Israel in a certain way. When the Levites all migrated to Judah after the Kingdom split, the law became the provenance of Judah.

The rest of the tribes of Israel went into diaspora in 721BC, divorced by God until he remarried them when Jesus came and ministered. So while the Israelites became the worldwide believers taking the gospel to the Nations where they had settled, the Jews had a wholly different purpose.

A core were chosen by grace, to show that God had not rejected the Jews, but the rest became the children of wrath.

God rolled up all the historical sins of Israel and the world, (the blood of righteous Abel to Zechariah), and pinned it on the Jews. As Paul says, this was very severe.

 

[Crustyone]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Romans 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Romans 2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Romans 3:2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.


These sound like there is still a special place in God's heart for the Jews.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Not on the basis of those scriptures..

It is only very recently that the Jews have started learning Hebrew again. But that is irrelevant for the New Testament which was written in Greek.

The matter of glory and distress was resolved in AD 67-73

 

[presidente]

The remnant are His ppl. It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.[Romans 9:6]

The true Israel is the body of Christ, the church. Both Jews and Gentiles who are in this body have had their heart circumcised.

And God still has a plan for the nation of Israel, including the branches broken off, who are 'enemies for your sakes, but beloved for the sakes' of the fathers.' The opening part of the chapter deals with the remnant. The latter part deals with the plan for Israel who had rejected Christ, who has been blinded for a time.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They're not warned against saying it. They are warned against boasting of it.

No one is boasting that I see. Just getting to the Truth of who Gods People are.

In fact I have never heard of anyone saying "haha, we are Gods People and you are not". Gods People typically want all people to be included. And the only real qualification is believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Which some reject...

I think Paul is warning gentile Church not to be proud or boast in the fact they did what Israel did not do, which was to receive Israels messiah, so they were grafted in while Israel was cut off.

Look at the churches history, We can almost put the history of the church, and the history of Israel side by side, and see an almost mirror image of each other.. The only difference being Israel had the law, The church had it counsels and sacraments.

1. Israel, very anti gentile Treated them like dogs. Church, Very anti-Israel.
2. Israel. Became very works oriented. Church Became very works oriented
3. Israel, once established, Were true followers of God for a very short time, Then most of the country were non believers. who wanted to mix the world with God.. Church, Once established, Only lasted as a single unit for a very short time, Within 300 years most of what professed to be the church were non believers who wanted to mix the world with the things of God.
4. Israel, after Babylon, Extra biblical books, eventual these writings were seen as equal with Gods word... Church Again, after a few hundred years, counsels and extra biblical writings, which are seen as equal with scripture.
5. Israel.. One leader, He is the one we follow. To disagree with him would mean death or outcast.... Church, One leader. to not follow him would mean death or outcast. Even today, We hold the leaders of our churches as mostly inspired by God who would not teach us wrong..

The bible warns, That just as Israel fell away, and God would make a people who were not his (gentiles) a people of his own (rom 9 - 10) that these people (the gentiles) too would have a "falling away" at the end.

This in my view is exactly what Paul is warning, Do not be to proud Gentile church, because just as they (Israel as a group) fell away and were cut off. You two, if you do not continue, will be cut off also (not talking about individuals, but as a GROUP)

Of course, Israels denial brought in gentiles, it allowed them to take over being Gods representatives on earth, to hold the scripture. to teach the world. To be used of God.. SO what happens when we as the church falls away?

well that is what paul is discussing.

 

[Awakened]

Israel is still Israel. The Church is the body of Christ, we received a Savior, Israel must receive their Messiah whose name Yeshua in Hebrew means Salvation. They will not accept him as their Messiah, until their blindness is lifted, after the Church is Raptured and before the Abomination of Desolation happens.

True biblical meaning of "Israel". The name "Israel" has always had a twofold significance: one national, and the other religious.

The primary meaning of "Israel" in the Old Testament stands for the religious covenant community, the people who worship God in truth and Spirit. Secondarily, it denotes a distinct ethnic group or nation which is called to become spiritual Israel

According to the Bible, Israel was made up of: 1) the descendants of Jacob (Exodus 1:1; Joshua 13:6, etc.), and, 2) those who joined Israel through circumcision and keeping the law (Exodus 12:48ff).

Keeping the covenant was a requirement for all those who wished to remain a part of Israel. To disobey God was to lose one's citizenship. (The covenant was broken and only a remnant retained citizenship )

Jeremiah 31:31
“The days are coming,” declares theLord,
*** “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
*** and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
*** I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
*** to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant


*The Israel of the New Covenant is made up of 1) those descendants of Jacob who believed in the Messiah (Matthew 10:6; 15:24; Acts 2:36-41; 21:20, etc.), and, 2) those who joined Israel through spiritual circumcision and the keeping of the new "law" (Romans 2:28-29; 13:10; 1 Timothy 1:5).

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

And God still has a plan for the nation of Israel, including the branches broken off, who are 'enemies for your sakes, but beloved for the sakes' of the fathers.' The opening part of the chapter deals with the remnant. The latter part deals with the plan for Israel who had rejected Christ, who has been blinded for a time.

I guess if the Nation Of Israel were to repent of Judaism and embrace Christ, and like Poland, declare Christ to be their acknowledged King, it would be an incredible day for the World.

I guess this is what the pro-Israeli lobby knows from prophecy will happen.

Just because some of us have not reached that stage of enlightenment, this does not make us anti-semites.
We are simply working out how prophecy works, which is the purpose of a forum, not to demean and damn people for no reason.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

True biblical meaning of "Israel". The name "Israel" has always had a twofold significance: one national, and the other religious.

The primary meaning of "Israel" in the Old Testament stands for the religious covenant community, the people who worship God in truth and Spirit. Secondarily, it denotes a distinct ethnic group or nation which is called to become spiritual Israel

According to the Bible, Israel was made up of: 1) the descendants of Jacob (Exodus 1:1; Joshua 13:6, etc.), and, 2) those who joined Israel through circumcision and keeping the law (Exodus 12:48ff).

Keeping the covenant was a requirement for all those who wished to remain a part of Israel. To disobey God was to lose one's citizenship. (The covenant was broken and only a remnant retained citizenship )

Jeremiah 31:31
“The days are coming,” declares theLord,
*** “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
*** and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
*** I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
*** to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant


*The Israel of the New Covenant is made up of 1) those descendants of Jacob who believed in the Messiah (Matthew 10:6; 15:24; Acts 2:36-41; 21:20, etc.), and, 2) those who joined Israel through spiritual circumcision and the keeping of the new "law" (Romans 2:28-29; 13:10; 1 Timothy 1:5).

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Wow. Beautifully put.

 

[FreeNChrist]

[h=1]1 Peter 2:9[/h]

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The fullness of the Gentiles was completed when the Christ hung, bled, died and was resurrected.

Nope. The times of the Gentiles did not start until Pentecost. This is when God was prophesied to pour out His Spirit on all flesh= the Gentile Nations

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

This time was also prophesied and foreshadowed in the law, as the Gentiles are referred to as a "new meat" offering starting at Pentecost....

Leviticus 23:16
Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord."

We also know the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in because the words of God say that when they are come in then the Deliverer shall come and turn away ungodliness from Jacob....

Romans 11:25-26

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This has not happened yet, but soon I believe.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a teaching which may shed some more light on this subject.

[video=youtube;WVmAxw8dqAA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVmAxw8dqAA[/video]

 

[Awakened]

Here is a teaching which may shed some more light on this subject.

[video=youtube;WVmAxw8dqAA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVmAxw8dqAA[/video]

Thank you,, for the video! I enjoyed watching it. ☺

 

[Blain]

Here is how I see it. Israel and the Israilites were never cast away and the gentiles were brought under the same yoke as the Israelites. People always speak of the message of the cross and this is the message I got from it, there are four points on a cross lets say the top is heaven the bottom earth the left gentiles and the right the jews and jesus being pinned to it completes and perfects them all.

It was never about one card having less value than the other and neither one was tossed aside that is not the message of the cross, in God's eyes his chosen are all whom love and follow him and his leaps with utter joy when a child comes to him regardless if it is jew or gentile. To understand how God perceives people we have to understand how his heart works and the eyes he sees through

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank you,, for the video! I enjoyed watching it. ☺

You are welcome. I enjoyed it too....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is a teaching which may shed some more light on this subject.

[video=youtube;WVmAxw8dqAA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVmAxw8dqAA[/video]

I have not had time to listen to it all, I listened while driving to my next job site, However, the part I ended at bothers me.

He states God gave the land to Israel conditionally, that eternal does not mean eternal. and this is in my view a dangerous proposition for many reasons. Most notably, that God gave me ETERNAL life, and it was not conditioned on anyting I did or would do in the future, (unconditional) and if God can take this back, Then God is a liar. and his words have no meaning,

1. God did not make a condition required when he gave them the land, in the 3 places he made the pledge to Abraham in gen 12, 15 and 17 of Genesis, and the 2 times he reconfirmed the covenant to both Isaac and Jacob.
2. The conditions made in Duet (mentioned by the teacher in the video that I heard) and leveiticus are not conditions of OWNERSHIP, they are conditions of USERSHIP..

example. as a parent, I give a child I love a gift I tell her it is hers forever, because I love her, if I take that gift back and say it is no longer hers, I lied to her, However, I do have the right to withhold USE of the gift, and even allow others to use that gift, if she does not meet certain conditions.. So if she fails to meet them, I can take the gift from her, and set it aside, Until she repents and starts to do what I asked, But the item still belongs to her.

This is exactly what God says in Lev 26, If you obey me, and follow me, I will do these things,, But if you go contrary, I will go agaiinst you, the last form of discipline for the NATION was to destroy her city and sanctuary, Remover her from her land, and scatter her over the world. Have someone who does not OWN (her enemy) the land enjoy the land.

but if she repent, God will remember the promise, He will remember the covenant, He will remember the land.

why? Because the land is still hers.


Having said this, Israel in the land today is not the restoration of Israel. It is not God returning them because they repented. There will be no peace in Israel until God returns, That is what scripture teaches, At that time, Israel will repent, and God will restore peace, not only in the land, But the world. There will be no Palestinian/Israel battle, because they will be neighbors and friends who all follow the same God.

We should not look down on this as an evil thing because we HATE as some put it (christ killers) but because it means the world is at peace, and ALL are following the same God we follow.. The "christ killers" Have admitted the mistake of their fathers, repented, and asked God for mercy and he gave it to them.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Leviticus 26
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the Lord made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Leviticus describes the land covenant in Mosaic Law.

As Mosaic Law is now defunct, this is of no relevance.

Any argument for the land has to come from the Abrahamic Covenant, or elsewhere.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have not had time to listen to it all, I listened while driving to my next job site, However, the part I ended at bothers me.

He states God gave the land to Israel conditionally, that eternal does not mean eternal. and this is in my view a dangerous proposition for many reasons. Most notably, that God gave me ETERNAL life, and it was not conditioned on anyting I did or would do in the future, (unconditional) and if God can take this back, Then God is a liar. and his words have no meaning,

1. God did not make a condition required when he gave them the land, in the 3 places he made the pledge to Abraham in gen 12, 15 and 17 of Genesis, and the 2 times he reconfirmed the covenant to both Isaac and Jacob.
2. The conditions made in Duet (mentioned by the teacher in the video that I heard) and leveiticus are not conditions of OWNERSHIP, they are conditions of USERSHIP..

example. as a parent, I give a child I love a gift I tell her it is hers forever, because I love her, if I take that gift back and say it is no longer hers, I lied to her, However, I do have the right to withhold USE of the gift, and even allow others to use that gift, if she does not meet certain conditions.. So if she fails to meet them, I can take the gift from her, and set it aside, Until she repents and starts to do what I asked, But the item still belongs to her.

This is exactly what God says in Lev 26, If you obey me, and follow me, I will do these things,, But if you go contrary, I will go agaiinst you, the last form of discipline for the NATION was to destroy her city and sanctuary, Remover her from her land, and scatter her over the world. Have someone who does not OWN (her enemy) the land enjoy the land.

but if she repent, God will remember the promise, He will remember the covenant, He will remember the land.

why? Because the land is still hers.


Having said this, Israel in the land today is not the restoration of Israel. It is not God returning them because they repented. There will be no peace in Israel until God returns, That is what scripture teaches, At that time, Israel will repent, and God will restore peace, not only in the land, But the world. There will be no Palestinian/Israel battle, because they will be neighbors and friends who all follow the same God.

We should not look down on this as an evil thing because we HATE as some put it (christ killers) but because it means the world is at peace, and ALL are following the same God we follow.. The "christ killers" Have admitted the mistake of their fathers, repented, and asked God for mercy and he gave it to them.

I understand what you are saying here. Perhaps this is why the writer of Hebrews says that we have a better covenant based upon better promises. The blood of Jesus speaks of better things...etc. The "conditions" in the Old Covenant are fully met in Christ now.

There is probably more to this physical Israel thing then meets the eye. The Lord will work all that out when He comes back.

Personally I have always had a love for Jewish people and I am thankful for Abraham having faith to believe what God said and that Abraham is the father of us that exhibit the same kind of faith in believing in what our Father says about His Son's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

I agree with you that when the Lord says we "have eternal life" - it is the truth and it is "conditional" on what He has already fulfilled for us who believe. In Him we have eternal redemption because of what He has done. The "conditional" aspect has been met fully in Christ and it has in us that believe in Him. We are safe in Christ.

In this security brings the environment for true maturity as it does in any relationship. He is not a liar and He can be trusted. His grace and love demonstrates this truth to us.