God's Covenant With the Jews Is Everlasting? His Covenant With Israel Is Everlastin

[tribesman]

Isreal is partially blind
They will be until the fulness of the gentiles is complete.
Then ALL Isreal will be saved.

Yes, it says so. But it does not say that literally "all" Israel (even at a certain point in time) will be saved. An elect remnant will be saved "...though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea". That is what is promised regarding salvation here.

Your problem is with the word "all", you think that the word "all" always, maybe just with a few exceptions, must mean literally "all" or be applied to literally "all". There are such a few cases though, but many times it does not mean that. Here it does not mean that.

"Until the fulness of the gentiles is complete, or have come in" Try to help me understand. If thus does not mean a specific period of time, what else could it possible mean?

It has been said many times already. It means that there is an elect remnant of the physical isralites yet to be saved, together with the gentile believers they make up the totality of all saved, i e "all Israel". See also Rom.9:6. These are all within the same context.

And some might be able to say I am twisting. But they would have a hard time. Paul did nto speak in allegory, He stated facts of things which would happen. Not taking him literally would be dangerous/

If you want to be so literal, why do you add the words "time" and "then" (will "all" 'physical'" Israel be saved)?

Paul never makes this distingction in romans 11. Your just assuming he meant this for whatever reason. Paul did not say any gentile was partially blind, he said isreal was. Paul did nto say any gentile was our enemy, he said Isreal was. etc etc etc..

He does make a distinction between saved israelites and not yet saved israelites. He makes no distinction between saved israelites and saved gentiles, yet naming them as two branches of the same one tree.

in romans 11 Paul is talking about gentile vs Isreal. Nothing in romans 11 would make us believe otherwise. Your adding to the words of paul

No, you are the one who is adding.

They can't have been fulfilled., it is an eternal covenant., Eternal goes forever. If they are no longer valid, it would not have ever been an eternal covenant, and God lied.

For you it all has to be literal and physical, else it is not fulfilled. With that measurement I wonder why you hook up on only Rom.11, there would be plenty of messianic prophecies who have not been literally fulfilled (something that unsaved jews often will point to). Why get stuck on Rom.11?

God did not say either of these things.

1. I give you this land until you completely possess it, then if you do not do what I say, i will take it from you
2. I give you this land as long as you obey my laws and follow me.

Yes, and Israel have been there and done that.

The land belongs to abraham, God then confirmed this covenant with isaac and jacob. It is theirs, meaning any child who is born of their loins own this land as an inheritance. They are not living their because of sin, God said if they sinned God will remove them an gentiles will trample it until you repent. God just fullfilled his judgment for sin on their behalf.

Since you say this is to be literally fulfilled, tell me how it will surface? I asked you about this in my last post and I repeat that same question. Tell me how this will work and materialize.

But the land still belongs to abraham, isaac and jacob, thus any one who is born of their loins, The only way this would stop being in effect is

1. The land no longer exists.
2. There are no more people alive who have physically descended from abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Ezekial says GOd will bring them back. They are not just going to move in. God will bring them in.

How will he do it? that is not for me to decide, i trust him to keep his word and fulfill his prophesy, thats all I need to know. God did not tell moses how he was going to kick the people out of cainan when he sent him to pharoah, He said trust me, We must trust God like Moses did. and let God take care of the rest.

The point is, Isreal has to repent first, or non of this will happen. what we see now is Not God restoring Isreal,

No.

1. Isreal is still in sin.
2. Isreal is still in rebellion against God
3. The fulness of the gentiles is not yet complete. or the gentiles owuld not still be trampling isreal.
etc etc.

As said, it is upon you to explain how this will manifest itself. Are you saying that all descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must first turn to Christ and then move down to the Holy land and set up a christian theocracy there? Or do you mean to say that once this mass conversion happens the millenium will break in? Just exactly what are you saying?

john 17? Christs preistly prayer. how is that allegory?
rev 21? again not allegory, those things will literally take place after this world is destroyed.

Much of what the prophets spoke of regarding Israel's restoration and the work of the Messiah for His people (and ALL of the promises) were fulfilled in the ministry of Christ. That is the whole point with covenant theology.

well you have not proved paul did not speak of a particular time, you just assume it, I can't do that,


1. I am not waiting on them, chances are I will not be there when they happen.
2. God said they will happen. Like he said the messiah will come and he came, Like he said there would be 4 gentile kingdoms and there are, Like he said ther would be many things and they literally took place.

What separates God from false gods is this, When God says this is going to happen, it happens.

Yes? It is not I but you who said it has not happened. I am of the position that most of these prophecies has been long time fulfilled.

I am just stating where I believe it came from thats all. Everyione likes to use the seeming fact no one believed it until the reformation. I am just showing how I disagree with that theory, and showing why no one believed in it during the roman tyrany of the roman church, No one could believe it until the reformation, it does not mean it is new or is false. it means that it was trampled by rome, and no one would be allowed to believe it while rome held power.

First off, the view in question was never "antisemitic". There were strong tensions between jews and christians not least because of the heavy and often violent resistance from the jews. Secondly, apart from the writings of the jesuits "Ribera" and "Lacunza" modern day millenialism is far more recent than the reformation. The reformers were not millenialists. It is first with folks like Scofield, Darby, Gäebelein etc that these theories are widespread. We're talking about 19th century here.

The problem is they still asked about an age, 70 AD was not the end of any age, nor did the promises of the OT concerning th enation of Isreal been completely fulfilled.

I am not saying that Christ has returned (I am not a full preterist), but "the end of the world" and the end of that particular "age" I believe the contemporary jews understood (these terms) as being clearly related to their nation and their temple. Which has much to do with the events of AD 70.

 

[meecha]

Can't see how you can fail to see that 70AD was the end of the age of Mosaic Judaism. The Jewish "world" came to an end and the Kingdom of Christ came in it's fulness

 

[JaumeJ]

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are
ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Does this answer the question posted originally?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, it says so. But it does not say that literally "all" Israel (even at a certain point in time) will be saved. An elect remnant will be saved "...though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea". That is what is promised regarding salvation here.

Your problem is with the word "all", you think that the word "all" always, maybe just with a few exceptions, must mean literally "all" or be applied to literally "all". There are such a few cases though, but many times it does not mean that. Here it does not mean that.

Can you prove "all does not mean all" or are you just assuming?
It does tell us a time, it tells us they are patially blind (meaning some are saved and join us, but many in their unbelief are kept from seeing truth) until the fulness of the gentiles have come it. At this point in time, what happens? "All Isreal" will be saved. How can we interpret this any other way than to say at this time, those who are "blinded" will have thier eyes opened so they can see, and they too will be saved with the remnant tha God has kep all through the time of the gentile, which has not yet come to its fulness?

It has been said many times already. It means that there is an elect remnant of the physical isralites yet to be saved, together with the gentile believers they make up the totality of all saved, i e "all Israel". See also Rom.9:6. These are all within the same context.

No, It means an elect remnant of Isreal is saved today, or currently saved, until the time of the gentiles has come to fulness. Romans 9 is not in the same context. Romans 9 is talking about Jews who think because they are jews they are automatically in. the context of romans 11 is what is God going to do with Isreal now that it has rejected Christ. Why would paul tell us GENTILES not to get to puffed up that we have found God, that if God grafted us in, we too can fall away (it is actually prophesied we will) and then Isreal be restored? this is NOT what romans 9 is talking about.

If you want to be so literal, why do you add the words "time" and "then" (will "all" 'physical'" Israel be saved)?

Read Luke 24. As with all prophesies, many passages of scripture talk about the same event.
Luke 21:24
and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Times of the gentile, Fulness of the gentile. they both mean the same. Jerusalem will be trampled until this time, Considering Jerusalem has been trampled by gentiles since AD 70, and is still being trampled today, This time has not yet been fulfilled. This is the same time Paul is speaking about in romans 11

He does make a distinction between saved israelites and not yet saved israelites. He makes no distinction between saved israelites and saved gentiles, yet naming them as two branches of the same one tree.

we must be reading different bibles.

Isreal cut off (nation) even though some of Isreal (remnant) are still saved.
Gentile grafted in (anyone not Isreal) even though not every gentile is saved.
Gentile church (romans) not to get to puffed up that they were grafted in and the nation of Isreal being cut off, Because just as their unbelief allowed us to be grafted in, Our unbelief will allow them to be grafted back in as the natural branch.

He is not talking about saved (Isreal) vs unsaved (gentile) he is talking about 2 people groups. You can't take it any other way!

No, you are the one who is adding.

I am not adding anything, I am taking him literally and in context. And not trying to add or twist his words or take away from their literal meaning

For you it all has to be literal and physical, else it is not fulfilled. With that measurement I wonder why you hook up on only Rom.11, there would be plenty of messianic prophecies who have not been literally fulfilled (something that unsaved jews often will point to). Why get stuck on Rom.11?

Who is stuck on Romans 11? I take Romans 11 with Luke and Matt, and Daniel, and Ezekiel, and Jeremiah, and Isaiah, all these prophesies concerning the NATION of Israel, Romans 11 is just Paul telling us (gentiles) not to get puffed up in pride. All these prophesies WILL come true, and God promise to his nation will come to be, He will bring them back as one nation, in THERE land (not new jerusalem, but modern day Canaan, the same land their fathers walked on) and he will clean them and be there God, These promises were not made to gentiles, They were made to show Isreal (those following God) that even though they will rebel, will deny their savior, There land will be trampled by gentiles, and they will be scattered all over the earth. It is in Gods plan, God will one day remove the blindness of them and restor them to the promises God made to their fathers (Abraham isaac and Jacob.)

remember, Jesus as savior and remover of sin was not just promised to Issac and Jacob, it was made to ALL Abraham's physical children, as well as those who would be blessed through christ, and made spiritual children of abraham.

Yes, and Israel have been there and done that.

Done what? Did you read what I said? You said you agreed, if you agreed you would admit God did not make this a conditional covenant, as I said.

Since you say this is to be literally fulfilled, tell me how it will surface? I asked you about this in my last post and I repeat that same question. Tell me how this will work and materialize.

Have you not read the OT prophesies?
1. Isreal will repent according to Lev 26, Many ay they do not know how this will happen, and we might not know. But some view revelation, and the attack on the woman who is in the mountains in hiding protected by God in the time of Jacobs trouble which will open their eyes as they call out on God to save them.
2. God will remove the gentile who are trampling Jerusalem and the land
3. God will bring the northern and southern kingdoms back from all the nations they have been taken to because of their sin.
4. God will punish these nations for treating his people in a bad way.
5. Isreal, Who is currently blind in part) will be returned to the land given to their fathers, not because they deserved it, but Because God will remember his covenant with the fathers.

How anyone can take this to mean anything gentile in nature I will never understand. No gentile was ever told they would be scattered to a gentile nation because of sin, and thier city destroyed, this is ONLY said of Isreal/ thus the return can only be said of Isreal

As said, it is upon you to explain how this will manifest itself. Are you saying that all descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must first turn to Christ and then move down to the Holy land and set up a christian theocracy there? Or do you mean to say that once this mass conversion happens the millenium will break in? Just exactly what are you saying?

Why would you make it something the people do? This has never been said in the OT or NT concerning these times.
1. God removes their blindness
2. God returns them to their land (they do not just move in by their own power, God moves them in)
3. God sets up his kingdom. They do not set up anything, it has never been about them or us, it is about God. I can do nothing with out God, Nor can you, Nor can they.

Much of what the prophets spoke of regarding Israel's restoration and the work of the Messiah for His people (and ALL of the promises) were fulfilled in the ministry of Christ. That is the whole point with covenant theology.Yes? It is not I but you who said it has not happened. I am of the position that most of these prophecies has been long time fulfilled.

Isreal is in their land? No
Isreal and Judah has been restored as one nation and living in their land? No
Isreal repented and saved? No
Gentiles who punished Isreal (all nation, as it is said in plural, it is not just rome) are punished for treating Gods people badly while they were in their care because of sin? no

You say these things were fulfilled, I say they have not been, They could not have been fulfilled, or we would see a very different world today, even if you believe the 100 years is not a literal 1000 years.

Christ fulfilled on promise. "All the nations of the world will be blessed by you" He has yet to fuflill the rest of the promises,. The "fullness of the gentiles" has not yet been fulfilled.

First off, the view in question was never "antisemitic". There were strong tensions between jews and christians not least because of the heavy and often violent resistance from the jews. Secondly, apart from the writings of the jesuits "Ribera" and "Lacunza" modern day millenialism is far more recent than the reformation. The reformers were not millenialists. It is first with folks like Scofield, Darby, Gäebelein etc that these theories are widespread. We're talking about 19th century here.

Thanks for your opinion. It is obvious the roman church was very anti-semetic in its early days. Considering any doctrine they deemed as heresy was squashed or hidden or destroyed. it is of no real significants that you state no one believed it until the reformation. Many things that are true of God would seem to not have been believed or practiced during the roman iron fist enforcement of its doctrines and its church.

Even if jews were fighting and had to be fought, it does not mean we should disregard the promises and prophesies of God., In fact, the prophets spoke to us and told us Isreal would do just what they did so even that should not have been a suprise to anyone,

I am not saying that Christ has returned (I am not a full preterist), but "the end of the world" and the end of that particular "age" I believe the contemporary jews understood (these terms) as being clearly related to their nation and their temple. Which has much to do with the events of AD 70.

And I would agree. But AD 70 was just the beginning. Jews who would have known daniel and other prophesies would have understood this, That is why they asked when the tmepl would be tore down (prophesied) and then the end of the age and the return of their savior. They understood after the temple is destroyed it would be trampled by gentiles (wars and desolations) that eventually there would be an abomination which makes desolate (there must be a new temple built for this to happen, even if this temple is built under sin because the nation is still blind to God and trying to get to God under the law and rejecting grace) in the middle of a 1 week covenant confirmed by a future prince, who comes from the people who destroyed the temple.

Remember, Rome was the last gentile nation spoken of by Daniel. We were told it would be strong, but then would splinter into many peaces, then be restored greater than it had before and be the most powerful kingdom this earth has seen.

Rome splintered long after Christ left and 70 AD. it is still splintered, we are still awaiting for the reformed roman empire to come into being. In other words, the fulness of the gentiles is not yet complete. Until God destroys this empire with his own hands.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are
ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Does this answer the question posted originally?

The only promise fulfilled was "in you shall all the nations be blessed" There were other promises which were considered eternal in nature, not based on anyone but God (unconditional) which are still in effect. which concern the "seed" of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. which belong to them only, and not us (unless we are of that seed of physical nature)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can't see how you can fail to see that 70AD was the end of the age of Mosaic Judaism. The Jewish "world" came to an end and the Kingdom of Christ came in it's fulness

Cant see how you can not see that all this was prophesied by the prophets. Yet God promised even after all these things happen, God will remove the blindness of the nation of Isreal and restor them according to his promise to their fathers.

Mosaic judaism will not be restored. Mosaic judaism never saved anyone, That is why Isreal rebelled and rejected Jesus in the first place. What will be restored is their love for God and recieving their messiah. They will be like David, who understood mosaic law did not save him, "Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire" when confessing his sin and acknowledging to God he understand he can not make up for his sin, he needed God to do that for him. And he knew of the messiah would would come and do that for him.

That is what will be restored. not mosaic judaism. That is where most so called dispy's get it wrong,

 

[JaumeJ]

The only promise fulfilled was "in you shall all the nations be blessed" There were other promises which were considered eternal in nature, not based on anyone but God (unconditional) which are still in effect. which concern the "seed" of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. which belong to them only, and not us (unless we are of that seed of physical nature)

I am not a law here, nor am I possibly considered source authority, however when God's Spirit came into me, and up to that moment I had never heard of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I immediately responded to a Jewish friend when he asked me, "Jack, what happened to you," automatically, and in great joy I exclaimed, "God's Spirit came into me, your God, Yahweh."
I believed Jesus Christ, and at the same time, I believed my religion is His, my faith is from Him, and His people are my people. I cannot change this personal experience, but I honestly believe I am of that other flock spoken of by the Master, brought together with His original flock, thus we are all one and of the same inheritance. As for becoming fond of calling Jesus Christ, Yeshua, this began just a couple of years ago, forty years after first receiving the Holy Spirit. It is not a law, nor required to call Jesus Christ this name, but it sure feels good in my heart.
None of this has concluded for or against what you have said, I am still learning. Thank you for your patience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am not a law here, nor am I possibly considered source authority, however when God's Spirit came into me, and up to that moment I had never heard of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I immediately responded to a Jewish friend when he asked me, "Jack, what happened to you," automatically, and in great joy I exclaimed, "God's Spirit came into me, your God, Yahweh."
I believed Jesus Christ, and at the same time, I believed my religion is His, my faith is from Him, and His people are my people. I cannot change this personal experience, but I honestly believe I am of that other flock spoken of by the Master, brought together with His original flock, thus we are all one and of the same inheritance. As for becoming fond of calling Jesus Christ, Yeshua, this began just a couple of years ago, forty years after first receiving the Holy Spirit. It is not a law, nor required to call Jesus Christ this name, but it sure feels good in my heart.
None of this has concluded for or against what you have said, I am still learning. Thank you for your patience.

And you can priase God for your experience and allowing you to be adopted into his family.

But remember, Neither you, or your fathers, were ever given a covenant which promised a land area which was yours forever. Not based on what you do or did or did not do, but based on what God gave the fathers.